IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #23

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I have always found it amazing that neither his parents nor his attorney insisted on medical attention.

Good point. But do we know CR's parents did not "insist" on ex post medical attention? That CR did not, at some later time, receive same? Was it reported? If so, where? I've questioned the presumed lack of medical attention to CR's injury at the approximate time of injury based on published reports. I've read no reports that state CR has not sought nor received medical care since.
 
Students do cheat, but sometimes you can party and not cheat and still do ok. Social partying was so common in college-people who could do well in classes and then on weekends or right after finals party it up. Finals were always a three or four day binge of studying and writing and then a week long celebration afterward. Our party days were more like Thursday and Friday, Saturday to recover, Sunday to do work. Young folk are able to juggle a lot of things in a week and that includes writing a paper during the day and getting coked up that night.

My judgment of CR is that is sort of a class clown type who parties a bit too hard sometimes, but innocent. I feel like he really did pass out in that bed that night.
What have you seen or know that gives you the class clown vibe? I get this btw.
 
OTOH, I'm still intrigued by JR's fable about talking or dealing privately with the Spierers. Words like "dissociative" or "depersonalization" come to mind. I'd lost almost all interest in JR until his return.
 
and... here's my take on why JW has not been in communication with CS/RS...

I would imagine that his attorney (and perhaps their attorney also!) has recommended that they NOT be in contact. It really would muddy the waters if he's still a POI.

I also had a horrible thought about the pressure that some of the PsOI must be under... being back in town... that another "accidental OD" wouldn't be any surprise...

Yes, the pressure. I do have compassion for those innocent. They will have to party in private. I hope it does not lead to excess resulting in tragedy. Thanks for bringing this up. I've thought about this but it helps to say it out loud.
 
What have you seen or know that gives you the class clown vibe? I get this btw.

A lot of stuff that is probably completely not factual, but a lot of gut feelings. The look on his face in his mug shot, the one video where he has a little smirk on his face the entire time, the feeling that he probably mouthed off a bit occasionally from some reports, his escapades at Smallwood, wearing a hot pink shirt lol. I just get the feeling he is the type of guy who is fun to be around/funny, but occasionally that borderline goes into being obnoxious.

Not that it really matters if I am wrong or right. I don't think it is necessarily indicative of his innocence or guilt-just a feeling I get from everything I know about him pulled together.
 
OTOH, I'm still intrigued by JR's fable about talking or dealing privately with the Spierers. Words like "dissociative" or "depersonaliztion" come to mind. I'd lost almost all interest in JR until his return.

Absolutely. Gabby's item 2. In post above is of the same mindset. Disassociation (and Rx) would allow him to return.

Regarding item #2, I have read posts elsewhere by parents of college-age children who sound like they might coach their kid to start thinking this way too.
 
If one of the POI called for hired help to carry her out it would probably be easier for him to not talk and possibly even shrug it off.
 
Gabby I'd like to ask the "what happened" question about partying to someone with actual data. All I know is IU started marketing the East coast heavily around 2000. After 9/11 parents wanted to send their kids someplace safe. They fell in love with the campus and culture of Bloomington. To a great extent I think the kids brought and continue to bring the party with them. This is the case with Laurens crowd it appears. After receiving a #1 party school rating several years ago the university has clamped down more, e.g., closed down aepi. Speaking if which Greek is still big here and Greeks party.

Thanks! When you referred to LS's type, I thought you meant "partiers' in general but now I see that you mean more literally people from the East coast. I get it now that have explained that IU has been marketing to the East coast. I didn't know that. I now live out east and let me tell you, having grown up in IN, it's a totally different culture. We moved here from a different state (more Midwest) and I was SHOCKED at the amount of partying here, compared to where we were, and even in the high schools! I was pretty tapped in to what the kids were doing back where we lived before but here, the high schoolers are doing acid, Xanex, huffing, Salvia, LSD, Bath Saults, etc. etc.
 
Absolutely. Gabby's item 2. In post above is of the same mindset. Disassociation (and Rx) would allow him to return.

Regarding item #2, I have read posts elsewhere by parents of college-age children who sound like they might coach their kid to start thinking this way too.

I'm confused, Jupiter......do you mean that there are parents out there who teach their kids that if an accident happens, it's OK to brush it under the rug b/c it's an accident? If so, that's some pretty sick and heavy coaching from parents IMO.

Accidents are just that - accidents - something that was intended to have happened. However, if most of the time if you think long and hard, someone did something impulsively or b/c he used bad judgement to cause the accident. I think too few parents really stop to think about this - that most accidents could have been avoided. Too many kids don't accept blame b/c they somehow start to feel as though they are the victim.

Occasionally freak accidents do really happen, but had this been a freak accident (like she was stuck by lightening), I don't think there would have been a coverup. Parents need to thing long and hard about that.
 
stealing tests and keeping a file for sharing is "normal?" <modsnip>

Its not stealing, alot of teachers here will give you tests and you can keep the test but you cant keep the scan tron that you bubble in your answers. Other times they are practice tests too. Teachers that do not let you take tests will make you put your name on it and turn it in, and if you do not turn in your test and answer sheet you get a 0. So the tests that are in there are usually take home tests or tests that teachers let you take. They are just all compiled in one place making it easier for people to take advantage of them. Its a benefit of greek life.
 
My sister has worked as an educator in various positions for many years, some at the college level, and she is constantly amazed at the parents coming in to get their children out of situations, sometimes refusing to allow their children to "own up to" anything, even if the child wants to admit his or her role in an act. So I am not at all surprised by the notion that there are lots of parents out there that encourage Junior to deny, deny, deny.
 
My sister has worked as an educator in various positions for many years, some at the college level, and she is constantly amazed at the parents coming in to get their children out of situations, sometimes refusing to allow their children to "own up to" anything, even if the child wants to admit his or her role in an act. So I am not at all surprised by the notion that there are lots of parents out there that encourage Junior to deny, deny, deny.


Lord, yes. I teach Core classes and have worked on disciplinary committees at two universities now. You have no idea how many parent meetings, emails, and phone calls I get because Junior didn't turn in a paper or Junior didn't show up ever or Junior plagiarized or Junior got caught doing drugs in a dorm or Junior set fire to something while drunk. It is never, ever, ever the kid's fault. Ever. It is my fault. It is the weather's fault. It is the school's fault. NEVER the kid's.

I had one mother screaming at me because I gave her daughter an F for copying and pasting wikipedia articles to make a "paper"-it was MY fault for not telling her daughter what plagiarism is. Except, part of orientation and my class involved defining and explaining what it is including signing a contract about it.

So, I guess I am biased, but it is just not crazy for me to think that the parents of these kids are probably in DENY mode or even it isn't your fault it is her fault or the university's fault or that mean evil kid that forced you to do drugs or the weather!!!!! I see parents excuse bad behavior or deny bad behavior in their kids every day so it just doesn't seem like a stretch. I do have to say I love the statements here by people who say they would drill their kids to get the truth and then make them own up to the consequences, ha ha (Maybe Gabby said that?). More my style.
 
An additional note to point out a few things that the parents do not seem to be talking about/people whose stories they do not seem to be questioning:
1. a white truck
2. a robbery, rape, or other violent crime
3. JW
4. HT
5. ZO/AB (unless one or both are in fact involved dealers/suppliers, but I have yet to see any good evidence of this)
6. the socioeconomic status of the POIs

I believe a focus on these things is a (possibly intentional) distraction.

A distraction from what? Why imply intent, what is it you fear?
 
Good point. But do we know CR's parents did not "insist" on ex post medical attention? That CR did not, at some later time, receive same? Was it reported? If so, where? I've questioned the presumed lack of medical attention to CR's injury at the approximate time of injury based on published reports. I've read no reports that state CR has not sought nor received medical care since.

I do remember the Salzmann, perhaps a week or so after LS went missing, mentioned CRs "amnesia" and that he had not been seen my medical personnel.
 
Yes, the pressure. I do have compassion for those innocent. They will have to party in private. I hope it does not lead to excess resulting in tragedy. Thanks for bringing this up. I've thought about this but it helps to say it out loud.

As I was reading this, I thought... "and the marginally innocent"... it's odd that that phrase crept into my head. I think maybe "marginally guilty" might be a more apt description. I think about the kids who know things but are keeping them quiet for reasons of their own. That pressure could become pretty intense.
 
Gabby I'd like to ask the "what happened" question about partying to someone with actual data. All I know is IU started marketing the East coast heavily around 2000. After 9/11 parents wanted to send their kids someplace safe. They fell in love with the campus and culture of Bloomington. To a great extent I think the kids brought and continue to bring the party with them. This is the case with Laurens crowd it appears. After receiving a #1 party school rating several years ago the university has clamped down more, e.g., closed down aepi. Speaking if which Greek is still big here and Greeks party.

IU never caught my attention before this case.

Maybe some crime syndicate saw it as the ideal opportunity to distribute drugs. The East Coasters are recruited, the apartments are set up to attract them with NYC place names, the bar right nearby. Parents hundreds of miles away. Everyone heavily propagandized by the media to believe that college is all good, and that drugs are cool. The local police maybe yet not prepared to deal with organized crime.
 
Its not stealing, alot of teachers here will give you tests and you can keep the test but you cant keep the scan tron that you bubble in your answers. Other times they are practice tests too. Teachers that do not let you take tests will make you put your name on it and turn it in, and if you do not turn in your test and answer sheet you get a 0. So the tests that are in there are usually take home tests or tests that teachers let you take. They are just all compiled in one place making it easier for people to take advantage of them. Its a benefit of greek life.

you're backpedaling. If teachers give a test to everyone, that's one thing. I'm talking about tests being stolen - which is what happens - and put in a file to be shared. It's called cheating. Get caught and you get thrown out.
 
(snipped) I do have to say I love the statements here by people who say they would drill their kids to get the truth and then make them own up to the consequences, ha ha (Maybe Gabby said that?). More my style.

Ha Ha Yes, that was me :loser:. My own kids are not angels. They've made some mistakes and have had to own up to them and face (and suffer) consequences. They're great kids, but they're human. Sometimes we learn by making mistakes. IMO it's not the mistake that is so bad, but the lack from being allowed to learn from it.

I get what you are saying in your post (sorry but I snipped it for space). I've seen the same thing - parents making excusies. Generally I think these parents fall into one of three categories:

1. They truly don't believe that their kid made a mistake. I'm not talking about being in denial, but I'm referring to the parents of kids who have been SO well-behaved all of the time.... kids who were on HS honor roll, Eagle Scouts, volunteers, Alter Boys, etc. etc. - very active and involved in church, all around "good" kids who have never once caused trouble. Those kids sometimes go to college where there's no supervision and even when they've been taught right and exhibited only the best behavior, most ALL kids make a few bad choices w/ no one there to guide them. Sometimes those choices have severe consequences and given their past, I think some parents truly can't believe it. Even though some of these boys have drug/alcohol charges, I'd bet that there's nothing in there past which would give parents reason to believe he would ever hide a body.

2. Some are in denial. They have their head so far in the sand and are completely oblivious to their kid's behavior, but they just "expect" he will behave well (with little training). When the behavior is bad, they are in complete denial of it.

3. Some parents know their son behaves badly but they just have so much "hope" that he will improve. When a kid is sent to school with dirty underwear, chances are he won't be able to get them clean. My point is that many parents send off their kids to college, with "baggage". These kids have made mistakes (sometimes BIG ones) and haven't quite worked out their issues. They know that a college education will help their son's future, but without having fixed the issues, will the kid really get that degree? I think they're so hopeful and unsure where to turn. The kid doesn't want help or doesn't think there's a problem. Sometimes it's easier to get him (and his dirty underwear) out of the house. It's not a university's place to clean his underwear, but the parents don't know what else to do. I think these parents think that sending their son off to get a degree with everyone else, will grow him up and "clean his underwear". It sometimes works, b/c he matures, but often not. These parents already know there's a problem with their son but NEED someone else to "fix" it b/c they haven't been able to (and perhaps not for lack of trying). When the kid does something wrong, they blame the school - I honestly think this is out of desperation b/c they so badly want their son to be on a better track.

I guess I tend to understand why parents do this. It's wrong, but I understand it. I think some parents are so desperate and want to help their kid and it's just easier to blame others. It's sad. For me, I think my kids would probably prefer a prison sentence than have to be cooped up at home with me drilling them! :floorlaugh:
 
Thanks! When you referred to LS's type, I thought you meant "partiers' in general but now I see that you mean more literally people from the East coast. I get it now that have explained that IU has been marketing to the East coast. I didn't know that. I now live out east and let me tell you, having grown up in IN, it's a totally different culture. We moved here from a different state (more Midwest) and I was SHOCKED at the amount of partying here, compared to where we were, and even in the high schools! I was pretty tapped in to what the kids were doing back where we lived before but here, the high schoolers are doing acid, Xanex, huffing, Salvia, LSD, Bath Saults, etc. etc.

C'mon, the big 10 schools are always well represented on those lists. It isn't because the midwest is being corrupted by the east coasters.
 
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