IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #9

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Let's try a thought experiment: You're a college guy late on a night of partying and the girl you're with suddenly dies (let's ignore cause of death for now). One or two of your friends (at most) are with you and know what happened. Somehow you decide/agree to ditch the body and never tell anyone anything. What do you do next? Here are some factors to get the experiment going ...

- One of you may be sober and able to think clearly. That guy would be able to prevent any drunk/high mistakes from the others.
- You and friends are not hardened criminals, not even close. You don't know the details of crime scene cleanup. But you do know they could take your computer so Google is a limited option.
- You're freaking out hardcore. She's DEAD man! (Which can actually make you more sober than you otherwise would be - flight or fight kicks in).
- Calling someone else for help expands the number of people who "know" and greatly increases the risk of getting caught.
- You may be involved with the drugs she was doing. You may fear getting caught with a stash.

What do you do?

I posted this back on the 17th, and it never got a lot of discussion. The last post about the IDS quotes reminded me, so I thought I'd drag it out again. What DO you do in this situation? I like what the IDS comment added in regard to the humidity, bug bites, etc. How would you pull it off? How (theoretically) would any of the POIs have pulled it off?

I'm not trying to prove/disprove anything, just get us brainstorming....

BTW - This aspect of the case is driving me nuts. :banghead:
 
This is one of those times I wish LE would give immunity to all drug and/or alcohol related activities that took place on that night, if these people will just tell what happened that night. And if someone wouldn't talk even with those immunities in place, LE might be able to narrow the field.
 
Glaucon-
the reason I didn't have much to say (at least I don't remember saying anything) is:
I don't know!! I cannot conceive of how 1,2 or at most 3 panicked seemingly immature young men could possibly leave no trail of evidence, get her into a car, out of the city into a hidden enough spot that in 18 days the body would not be detected by sight, odor, or as we've seen, vulture sightings.
And who the heck do you trust enough to call to help you? All your friends love LS too!
Where is she???
 
I posted this back on the 17th, and it never got a lot of discussion. The last post about the IDS quotes reminded me, so I thought I'd drag it out again. What DO you do in this situation? I like what the IDS comment added in regard to the humidity, bug bites, etc. How would you pull it off? How (theoretically) would any of the POIs have pulled it off?

I'm not trying to prove/disprove anything, just get us brainstorming....

BTW - This aspect of the case is driving me nuts. :banghead:

The scenario on the IDS is entertaining but burying would not be necessary. If he is the big guy in the FB photo, he can throw that bag of salt out a car door, roll it down a hill, etc. If he has a vehicle with 4WD, he can get rural real quick.
 
LS, at about 90-95 lbs., is very small. Sunrise is around the corner. If indoors, IMO, she was carried out within something. If outdoors, I don't know...
 
I posted this back on the 17th, and it never got a lot of discussion. The last post about the IDS quotes reminded me, so I thought I'd drag it out again. What DO you do in this situation? I like what the IDS comment added in regard to the humidity, bug bites, etc. How would you pull it off? How (theoretically) would any of the POIs have pulled it off?

I'm not trying to prove/disprove anything, just get us brainstorming....

BTW - This aspect of the case is driving me nuts. :banghead:

Assuming there was a car available--remove all drugs from the premises, put the body in a duffel bag if available, put in trunk of car after checking that the coast is clear. Drive a few miles out of town, pull over, hide the body in some heavy brush that isn't next to any landmarks, parks, or anything (students probably don't have shovels or any heavy tools fortunately, so probably not buried). Unfortunately, one doesn't have to drive far out of town to find very remote locations with heavily overgrown areas (this time of year) for concealment. And there probably aren't many cameras North on Walnut Street or SW to 2nd Street. I worry that they will never find the body, or it will take years--without a tip or a stroke of luck (buzzards, etc.), the body could be hidden anywhere (if this scenario is what happened).
 
I just realized how much I want I want the perp to be one of her friends rather than an abductor. Know what I mean?
 
Re: opinion/thoughts regarding JW and whether or not he is involved in the disappearance of his girlfriend..

I have many thoughts on JW.. Many of those thoughts I have in detail posted about throughout Lauren's threads..
Starting back the night that dad spoke with media about the fight btwn CR and group of guys.. Whom we quickly learned was JW's friends..the hoopla that ensued due to dad speaking about this altercation and how desperately LE attempted to have these statements thought to be false.. Even going as far as to have the fam put out statements immediately saying that the media had fabricated this and that it was 100% false.. As we all know it was too little, too late, the cat was already out of the bag and eventually it had to be indeed acknowledged and deemed as fact that there was footage of this altercation..

IMO if that altercation was irrelevant to what occurred that night and was in no way involved IMO there would not have been the huge hoopla of attempting to keep this under wraps and not for the publics knowledge.. IMO it is in some way possibly involved with what or who harmed Lauren that night..

Another detail that I posted at great length about was the overwhelming need to overly portray JW as this outstanding guy..starting with HT's account of the evenings events(which drastically changed since then) along with her seemingly swooning testament to just how wonderful Jesse was(odd to say the least in talking about your BFF's bf).. One remark of hers that did stand out to me in the beginning was her already seeming to imply that she was defending actions of Jesse's that would be seen as possessive.. She stated that it was only because he was so in love with Lauren and that she was his number 1 priority in his life.. Only because of this was why Jesse was so protective over her.. My question evenback then was why feel the need to justify his overly protecting of her when is not present any where in the nights events and supposedly not involved in any way.. Very strange to say the least IMO..

With every fiber of my being I believe there is just no doubt that Jesse was notified at some point about Lauren with Corey.. Whether or not before or after the altercation, there's just no way around it that especially with Lauren choosing to immediately after the fight take off and leave with Corey, headed to his place.. It just is not possible that Jesse was not notified at the very latest by the time Lauren was leaving Smallwood with Corey en route to Corey's apt..

What further added suspicion to thIs is when his frat brother/one of his roomates gave an interview to the media stating very specific times and events of Jesse's night.. Making statements for certain that Jesse went to bed at 2:30am, noting that was when Lauren was arriving at Smallwood and stating that Jesse received zero phone calls, texts, or visitors from 2:30am on..

Now exactly how in the he!! Could this guy so very certainly make these statements??.. He absolutely does not know unless he was in the bed with Jesse with the phone in his sight and closely monitoring the phone for any activity.. This isn't the case obviously so there is absolutely no way this boy can make these certain statements that he did.. In reality he doesn't have a clue if Jesse received calls/texts and unless he was standing guard over Jesse's room and every exit as well he can't even state that he knows for certain that Jesse went to sleep at 2:30am and never left nor had any visitors.. Did this guy stay up all night long, not leaving Jesse's side and watching his every move?? I seriously doubt so.. So, again he hasn't a clue as to what calls, texts, visitors, or even Jesse leaving at some point in the middle of the night.. He only knows what Jesse has told him, period..

IMO this is no way whatsoever an alibi or corroboration of Jesse's acct of the evening.. Infact it is suspicious when a college boy is to make such certain and detailed claims of events that did or did not occur that night in question..

Which IMO just proves further that all of these things combined with LE as recently as yesterday making the statement that "THEY HAVE NOT NARROWED DOWN THEIR INVESTIGATION".. and still have Jesse as a POI as far as we know..

While I do appreciate greatly those that chose to share with us their personal knowledge of "inside" info, meaning that key people such as Laurens family do not suspect JW nor do LE.. But until at the very least this person is verified thru WS the info cannot in any way whatsoever be even considered to be true, accurate, etc. Anyone can sign up and post absolutely anything they want to(truth or lies).. But here we do like to stick with little known facts that can somehow be verified.. Yes alot of speculation goes on around and about those little known facts but it is clearly stated that it is speculation and in no way claiming to be valid, accurate, and definitely not a fact.. Pure speculation and opinion of what possibly has happened to this young woman given what little known Facts there are..

So I would love to be able to consider this new info posted about JW(and HT as well)and hope that the poster chooses to go the quick and easy route of being verified..

No matter what tho IMO there is still too much at this point that is questionable in and around JW to not discuss the possibility of his involvement. If and when LE decide he is no longer POI then those discussions will shift to other areas..

IMO any implication that either JW or HT's accounts were found to be suspicious based on a darker coloring of skin, ethnicity, or religious background is total and complete BS..

I hadn't a clue in the world that Jesse Wolff was even of Jewish heritage until some of his friends were making rude and slanderous comments publicly that alluded to this..
And as for HT I have strictly only had access to following this case via mobile. Therefor I haven't seen nor heard HT and wouldn't have a clue if she were green and spoke babal.. The only thing I know is the words of hers that I read in black and white print and that alone by far was plenty to make a blind person reading her words in braille 100% uneasy and suspicious of this girl!

It hadn't a damn thing to do with color of skin, accent of voice, ethnicity, race, religion, socioeconomic class or anything other than the stone cold fact that what i read that came from her mouth IMMEDIATELY struck me as LIES!! Period.. No other reason...

These are my opinions and thoughts based on what we presently know and as always is subject to change if/when further information is disclosed and /or learned..
 
The scenario on the IDS is entertaining but burying would not be necessary. If he is the big guy in the FB photo, he can throw that bag of salt out a car door, roll it down a hill, etc. If he has a vehicle with 4WD, he can get rural real quick.

Mods, I don't know to what extent we're allowed to comment on repeated rumors outside the MSM if such rumors indirectly implicate our theory of the crime... So, if this is not allowed, please let me know/delete.

That said, the quotes on the IDS page and Tony Gatto's article illuminate another possible reason that JR/LS could have been calling DR. If accurate, I actually think it could explain JR lawyering up and support the stranger abduction theory (and, possibly) explain who LS' parents are trying to target with their pleas. If JR/LS were unable to procure anything to party with (the reason she went to JR's per MB), and then DR didn't answer his phone, there are two possibilities: (1) LS gave up and went home -- JR's story could be accurate, but he could still be withholding info/cagey; or (2) LS went to find drugs elsewhere and LS' parents want JR/other friends to say what they know about where LS would have gone for those. Could explain why LS seemed to be headed "home" a different way than she came.

Obviously, I have no idea whether the rumors on other websites are true, they could be totally and completely false... but it is another possible explanation for the call that I hadn't focused on.
 
I just wanted to state that I have found Tony Gatto's blog useful. I understand that some of his items haven't been picked up by the mainstream press. But I welcome insight from anyone. I just find it interesting some people on here have some distrust or desire to discredit him. When the spirit of this blog and their conversations dabble in speculation to assist in solving a mystery. I am glad for people like him pushing the envelope.
 
If it was JR - he's no heavyweight. 90 pounds of solid weight is a lot. He's a bean pole in all the pictures I've seen of him. Must have had help I think (if it were him). I think the commercial dumpster out of town is equally viable BTW.
But still can you imagine in that frame of mind and time to collect your thoughts, cover up the crime scene (you get paranoid about these things when you know you're doing something wrong), get your car - and no one remembers him coming or going - there are others around like apartment mates (we know that 4 are on the mailbox thanks to one of our locals IIRC) You haven't woken them? I mean, this is just so hard to imagine.
 
I posted this back on the 17th, and it never got a lot of discussion. The last post about the IDS quotes reminded me, so I thought I'd drag it out again. What DO you do in this situation? I like what the IDS comment added in regard to the humidity, bug bites, etc. How would you pull it off? How (theoretically) would any of the POIs have pulled it off?

I'm not trying to prove/disprove anything, just get us brainstorming....

BTW - This aspect of the case is driving me nuts. :banghead:

This question eerily reminds me of a child's book "What Do You Say?, Dear" which intended to instruct youngsters in social behavior. I have the twisted thought that the book could be amended to add; "A girl has just died in your room, What do you do, dear? Anyone old enough to remember this popular book?

Back to the question, which I believe I answered once. Then it was I'd get in a vehicle and drive away with the body as fast and as far as I could - (maybe Lake Michigan!). Now, I am thinking, I'd stash it along the path she took home.

In truth, I believe I would not dehumanize the remains. And I would want my son to come clean. I would deal with that. What my son would do, who knows, though he says he'd likely call me in a panic.
 
If TG's source is accurate then JR is not telling the truth about when he last saw LS---@ 4:30 after leaving his place. Either she left earlier-alone or with him or perhaps, she was brought there "blacked out" or worse.
 
The scenario on the IDS is entertaining but burying would not be necessary. If he is the big guy in the FB photo, he can throw that bag of salt out a car door, roll it down a hill, etc. If he has a vehicle with 4WD, he can get rural real quick.


He is not the tall guy. The case dockets for their public intoxication/other infractions have their sizes posted. They are as follows

JR: 5'7, 150lbs
JW: 5'6, 135lbs
CR: 6'0, 155lbs
MB: 6'1, no weight listed.

These are not big guys, with the exception of MB, but again his weight is unknown. CR is thin, JW is small all the way around, and JR isn't much bigger than JW.
 
I have been lurking on this thread for awhile. I think many valid points and speculations have been made and I truly wish we had more information to go off of so that our thoughts were more than just speculation...

As many others have stated, I don't think this night-as dramatic and ultimately tragic as it was--is that out of the ordinary for hard-partying college students and I don't think that the majority of the information we have about that night is shocking being that I (despite obviously not knowing anyone in this case personally or having attended or ever even been to IU/Bloomington) have just recently finished college myself, not very much older than Lauren or the PsOI and, though I mostly stuck to just drinking, have also been exposed to/semi-involved in the drug culture prevalent at many college campuses/among many in this age group.

I think it is most likely that this is either a flat-out OD or accidental death at least partially caused by substance use (heart condition exacerbated by strenuous activity (sex, a fight, stress, mixture of substances), fall/hit head, etc) and cover-up involving JR and one other person. If drug use was widespread among one or both of these groups of friends (JR/CR/MB/DR/HT and JW's friends), that could account for a lot of the ambiguity we've been seeing and inconsistencies or seemingly odd statements made in the PsOI and friends' reports.

It is interesting to analyze all the various elements of the night and ask why did all these things happen/they make little sense (for example, why did they go to JR's apt before Kilroy's to 'watch the game' when the game was over at that time, why was Lauren the only girl around/why didn't any of her friends or even JW go with her, why did she get into Kilroys despite being underage, why did she lose/forget personal items all along the way, why did she and CR go back to Smallwood, why did CR get into a fight, why did they decide to leave Smallwood after the fight instead of visiting Lauren's apt, etc., etc.) but it could very well be that all of those things that we are asking ourselves 'why' about were just part of a 'normal' night of partying and do not, in themselves, have much bearing on Lauren's eventual disappearance.

What would have bearing would be the things we do not know-did she use drugs, if so, which ones, how much did she take on the night in question and how much had she used them before, how much did she drink on this particular night and was that a normal amount for her, were she and CR more than friends, who did she exchange texts/calls with that night and what were the nature of those interactions, who did she interact with at the bar, did JW know about/did he actually ask his friends to engage in the altercation w/ CR (it is possible that HT or another Smallwood resident could have told JW that Lauren was going over to JR's apt or that she was at the bar w/ CR). We have way too many unknowns. I think the most helpful information would be to know about the possibility of drugs involved-not just on the night of Lauren's disappearance but with her/amongst her groups of friends in general. I don't know why but I suspect JR was somehow involved in distributing drugs to this group of friends and that he had connections to people higher-up in the drug trade. That would explain why Lauren went to his apt before going to Kilroy's, why HT would try to cover up the drug use going on at JR's apt by saying that Lauren and DR had gone there to watch the game (which was already over by that time), why she was allegedly so messed up while at the bar (according to the supposed witness who overheard her talking about taking xanax and coke), why she may have left her personal items all over town, why she would have made weird decisions like walking CR back to his apt. after the fight. Drug use/excessive alcohol use would also explain CR's memory loss for those who do not believe the fight alone caused his memory loss. Drug use would explain why LS asked MB if he wanted to party and he demurred. Drug use would explain why LS went to JR's apt from MB/CR's apt. if that in fact happened. Connections to powerful people in the drug trade would also explain the discreet disposal of LS's body and the lack of evidence--I think there are some people involved in drugs who would be very skilled at getting rid of a body/evidence in a case where their college dealer's friend dies of an OD, especially if selling drugs to IU students is a huge part of their business, they obviously want to do a really thorough job of covering up any accident involving a student taking their drugs This is why I think JR called someone higher up in the drug trade to help him after LS ODed or had some other drug-related accident.

I know much of this has been stated before and it is very rambling but I have been reading through these threads all day, reading up on news reports about this case all day and kind of got carried away sharing my two cents:) I really hope they find some answers soon--I feel just horrible for LS, her parents and everyone involved. So heartbreaking.
 
Tony Gatto reported that a "bar employee" claims to have seen LS at 3:38 with a "dark skinned stranger". LE has not confirmed this evidence but it sounds pretty credible. The "dark skinned stranger" sounds like someone she met on the street. (He asked her if he could help her home). If he was one of her friends, he would already be helping her home. Since, presumably, no "dark skinned stranger" has come forward; we might certainly have a "suspect".

The question then becomes, why would JR say she didn't leave his apt until 4:30? Is it possible that LS really left JR's place alive but JR lied about the time because he knew she was really wasted and the later she left, the more time she had to sober up and the less "responsible" he would appear for whatever happened?

I think that is a stretch. Do you think he lied about the phone call for the same reason? Too bad he fled town. Would it be possible to look for LS's fingerprints on the phone if they had confiscated it right away? Or would they have been all smudged by then? I know nothing about this.
 
I just wanted to state that I have found Tony Gatto's blog useful. I understand that some of his items haven't been picked up by the mainstream press. But I welcome insight from anyone. I just find it interesting some people on here have some distrust or desire to discredit him. When the spirit of this blog and their conversations dabble in speculation to assist in solving a mystery. I am glad for people like him pushing the envelope.

Thanks. My reporting is solid. The 3:38am woman at College and 10th sat with me, in her place of work, and told me the things she did. I don't think the man she saw has anything to do with it. She told me she was interviewed and then re-interviewed by police and sat down with a sketch artist.

I would like to say one more thing. This woman is an excellent citizen. She did exactly what Lauren's family and police have asked people to do. She's taken some heat, I know. But she should be proud for what she has done. And while I know I will draw criticism, it comes with the territory of being a journalist. She gave me her name and phone number and was totally on the record. I chose not use her name nor have I revealed the bar/restaurant where she works.
 
But still can you imagine in that frame of mind and time to collect your thoughts, cover up the crime scene (you get paranoid about these things when you know you're doing something wrong), get your car - and no one remembers him coming or going - there are others around like apartment mates (we know that 4 are on the mailbox thanks to one of our locals IIRC) You haven't woken them? I mean, this is just so hard to imagine.

Thanks for the discussion on this everyone. It is hard to imagine any of the POIs being cool/collected/careful enough to pull it off without a hitch. Who's car did they use? No evidence inside? No sightings of it coming/going? I know there's a lot of rural land surrounding Bloomington - and on that front I think about how far away a cadaver dog can smell an un-buried body (it's FAR, especially considering the warm weather). Even a human can smell something like that from at least 150 yards if the wind is right (based on my own experience with dead deer). I'm assuming that the city limits and easily accessible surrounding rural areas have all been thoroughly searched (including all dumpsters). That Texas recovery group even came in with their gadgets (I think I read about an aerial drone), horses, and valuable experience.

This all leads me to believe they took her further away - but then when did the POI/POIs get back? What's the alibi for heading to the sticks early that morning or the next day? :banghead:

I don't like thinking about not finding LS (alive or not).
 
Everyone present in the apartment knew what happened which means possibly four adults.

The first thing you do is get her in a trash bag. Even if see expelled some liquids, her clothes would have contained it for a while. Once in a trash bag....double or even triple bagged....you would have to decide what to do with it.

At least one of the roommates would have a vehicle. At 4am there are few people outside. After getting the vehicle in place, you take the most direct route out of the building. If they were on a low floor, they could have put her out the window. Once in vehicle only two go and dispose of body. The others could cover in the event someone showed up looking for her or just to hang out. In 15 minutes, they are far enough out of Bloomington to toss the body. That takes 5 minutes and 15 minutes back to apartment. They could have done it all in an hour.
 
Thanks for the discussion on this everyone. It is hard to imagine any of the POIs being cool/collected/careful enough to pull it off without a hitch. Who's car did they use? No evidence inside? No sightings of it coming/going? I know there's a lot of rural land surrounding Bloomington - and on that front I think about how far away a cadaver dog can smell an un-buried body (it's FAR, especially considering the warm weather). Even a human can smell something like that from at least 150 yards if the wind is right (based on my own experience with dead deer). I'm assuming that the city limits and easily accessible surrounding rural areas have all been thoroughly searched (including all dumpsters). That Texas recovery group even came in with their gadgets (I think I read about an aerial drone), horses, and valuable experience.

This all leads me to believe they took her further away - but then when did the POI/POIs get back? What's the alibi for heading to the sticks early that morning or the next day? :banghead:

I don't like thinking about not finding LS (alive or not).

No one would notice them because no one knew anything had happened. If they drove the speed limit and didn't stop along the way, they were virtually invisible. Someone just walked by your house 12 hours ago, did you notice them or even know they were there? They had 12 hours before anyone knew anything.

Why do you assume there would be evidence? The police have not searched every vehicle these adults had access to. If she is in the backseat and gets sick or leaves hair behind, so what...that doesn't prove anything. They clean it up the next day. If the cops check now and fine something they can say.....well a few months ago we were out and she was drunk and puked in the car.
 
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