Is there even a case against Baldwin?

[primitivefuture]

Only assuming the Hollingsworths' didn't mistake Baldwin's jeans which "had holes in them and the knees were cut" as Misskelley described for Domini's "black pants that kind of had flowers on them" and "holes above the knees" as for instance Tabatha Hollingsworth described and which all three Hollingsworths had surely seen Teer wear many times before. Which again I agree it's quite possible they actually did see Teer with Echols, and I don't consider the Hollingworths' sighting to be evidence against Baldwin for that reason, but that doesn't come anywhere close to proving they purged themselves on the stand regarding their sighting of Echols, regardless of how much anyone might wish it did.

Why anyone continues to imply that it is at all possible that Narlene mistook Jason for her niece Domini is baffling. Whether or not she was telling the truth, I have no idea.

Domini had on a pair of tight pants - you know, fit tight. And she had flowers, looked like white flowers to me on her pants.

Fogleman:Alright.

Hollingsworth: Which I know they were her clothes because 2 or 3 days before that, I saw her with those same clothes on."

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[kyleb]

As for the jeans, I would contend that anyone who cannot tell boy from girl, nor blue jeans from black, nor flowered pants of one colour from plain pants of another colour, has no business being touted as a reliable witness in a murder trail.

Have you never mistaken an effeminate boy for a girl before? Dark blue for black? And surely you realize that holes in jeans can appear similar to white flowers as can be seen here:

Again, I'm far from sold on the notion that the Hollingsworths mistook Baldwin for Teer, but especially being in the dark with headlights reflecting off mud and pale skin, I certainly couldn't fault anyone for making such a mistake, particularly if their attention was focused on Echols. For all I know the Hollingworths are the ones who told Fogleman they may have mistaken Baldwin for Teer, but of course witnesses can't engage in speculation on the stand and hence it was left for the closing arguments.

 

[reedus23]

Again, I'm far from sold on the notion that the Hollingsworths mistook Baldwin for Teer, but especially being in the dark with headlights reflecting off mud and pale skin, I certainly couldn't fault anyone for making such a mistake, particularly if their attention was focused on Echols. For all I know the Hollingworths are the ones who told Fogleman they may have mistaken Baldwin for Teer, but of course witnesses can't engage in speculation on the stand and hence it was left for the closing arguments.

Then it sounds like it is settled. Maybe another thing we can move to the thread of things agreed upon. There is no evidence that Jason was seen near the scene that evening by the Hollingworths.

 

[Hez]

Yep, lazy of me to use generalisations, but it's the weekend and I can't be arsed. My bad. I don't one bit retract the essence of what I said, though.

I really wish you would cease feeling the urge to constantly add these little "as much as anyone might wish" sort of jabs while replying directly to my posts. It gives the impression that you are approaching me from a position of contempt, and from a belief that I'm some sort of Echols groupie.

Feel free to continue doing so, it's your prerogative, but it really does nothing to promote enthusiasm for discussion between us, iyswim.

BBM - :goodpost:

 

[Miranda!]

Are some forgetting that in the early stages L.G. Hollingsworth was a possibe suspect and his extended family / clan were rallying around to keep him out of the spotlight. And that meant also keeping other family members out of it and encouraging the police to consider others!

What does 'iyswim' mean?

And the visuals of a Hollingsworth purging themselves on the stand is singularily unattractive. Meanwhile back during the actual trials perjury was allowed by the Judge when a policeman was giving evidence under oath. AND Ridge remained on the force.

 

[primitivefuture]

What does 'iyswim' mean?

And the visuals of a Hollingsworth purging themselves on the stand is singularily unattractive. Meanwhile back during the actual trials perjury was allowed by the Judge when a policeman was giving evidence under oath. AND Ridge remained on the force.

I had to look it up. It means "if you see what I mean."

Can you refresh my memory about which part of Ridge's testimony you're referring to? Thank you!


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[kyleb]

I too am interested to see what Miranda is alluding to as perjury from Ridge. Until then, here's an example of Echols perjuring himself at trial:

Q. There's been some testimony today about -- did you ever during this time period go to a girl's club softball game?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you recall during this time period between May the 5th and June the third how many times you went there?

A. Once.

Q. Do you recall -- there was some testimony about a conversation that you had with a bunch of people. Do you recall that conversation?

A. I was there with a bunch of people, but we never discussed the murders.

And of course I know many people like to imagine the five girls who reported this are liars who had it out for Echols, so I won't bother citing their testimony and police reports. But would any of you go so far as to also call Baldwin a liar for corroborating those five girls accounts in his 2008 Habeas Corpus petition, section V. part H. "The ball game statements were never put in context" starting on page 101? Or can we all agree that Echols perjured himself when he denied the having discussed the murders at the softball games during his trial?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

How many witnesses does one case need? I go x-eyed reading the number of confession witnesses in the case .. They all told plenty of people they were guilty.

 

[Miranda!]

Can you refresh my memory about which part of Ridge's testimony you're referring to?

When Ridge was on the stand he described how items were removed from the ditch and placed into evidence bags. At that point they did not have any evidence bags to hand - they later acquired some shopping bags from a local store. Anyway the items were placed on the side of the ditch and there are police photographs to show this as well as, I seem to remember, police video footage that was included in PL1.

Especially dire considering that, as a police officer, giving evidence would have been part of the 'job description', not to mention having access to all the notes etc to refresh his memory prior to taking to the stand.

And thank you for the answer about acronym! My pc freezes if too many tabs open!

 

[primitivefuture]

When Ridge was on the stand he described how items were removed from the ditch and placed into evidence bags. At that point they did not have any evidence bags to hand - they later acquired some shopping bags from a local store. Anyway the items were placed on the side of the ditch and there are police photographs to show this as well as, I seem to remember, police video footage that was included in PL1.

Especially dire considering that, as a police officer, giving evidence would have been part of the 'job description', not to mention having access to all the notes etc to refresh his memory prior to taking to the stand.

And thank you for the answer about acronym! My pc freezes if too many tabs open!

Thank you for answering. I didn't remember that he lied about that, but I did remember being blown away that they collected extremely vital evidence in paper "sacks" from a nearby store. Preposterous.

As far as Ridge acting according to 'job description', I have zero faith in his capacity to do so. Considering that he doesn't think it's rape to "get her so drunk or drugged up that she would no longer says no", I'm appalled that he was ever given a job as a police officer. Maybe if the job description was "protect and serve criminals".


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[kyleb]

When Ridge was on the stand

Would you please quote whatever testimony from when Ridge was on the stand you've been alluding to here?

Considering that he doesn't think it's rape to "get her so drunk or drugged up that she would no longer says no"

Would you please provide your source for this quote you've attributed to Ridge here?

 

[Miranda!]

Would you please quote whatever testimony from when Ridge was on the stand you've been alluding to here?
Would you please provide your source for this quote you've attributed to Ridge here?

1) I have not attributed any quote, per se, to Ridge. I merely referrenced my memory of what he said from the stand of how the items at the scene were handled, as compared to the police still photographs and video!

2) I thought you were an 'experienced' non and had all the 'facts', which you choose to believe, at your finger tips!

What I said can be verified by doing a search on Calahan's - the depository of all the legal documents, trial transcripts, police notes etcetera. So feel free to check yourself. You will need to retwatch PL1 and check all the photographs too.

It is not really germaine to this thread about there being any real case against Baldwin, except in so far as the wmpd were incapable of doing a proper evidence led investigation.

 

[kyleb]

1) I have not attributed any quote, per se, to Ridge.

Nor have I suggested you did. There is someone else who has attributed a quote to Ridge here though, and that is the person who I asked for their source. Is there any chance you could demonstrate yourself capable of doing a proper evidence led investigation by naming who that person is? And are you not capable of making a proper evidence based accusation by quoting the testimony from Ridge which you've alleged constitutes perjury?

 

[primitivefuture]

Would you please quote whatever testimony from when Ridge was on the stand you've been alluding to here?


Would you please provide your source for this quote you've attributed to Ridge here?

The exchange begins at the very end of this page http://callahan.8k.com/images/r_climer/climer_r_04.jpg and continues at the beginning of this page http://callahan.8k.com/images/r_climer/climer_r_05.jpg

I hope I've linked these correctly. I haven't entirely figured out the board.

This quote that follows the one I'd previously referenced makes the whole exchange even more disgusting:

Ridge: You call that rape, but there is a real fine line. I don't think that would be called rape

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[kyleb]

Yeah you got the links right, and I thank you for providing them. Anyway, while I agree that the behavior Climer described engaging in with Baldwin and Misskelley is disgusting, it doesn't legally constitute rape, and that was obviously what Ridge was interested in determining.

 

[primitivefuture]

Yeah you got the links right, and I thank you for providing them. Anyway, while I agree that the behavior Climer described engaging in with Baldwin and Misskelley is disgusting, it doesn't legally constitute rape, and that was obviously what Ridge was interested in determining.

I don't believe that Ricky Climer is credible in any way. Most of what he describes is uncorroborated and sounds totally ludicrous, and so is not evidence against Baldwin. I don't believe that the events he described actually took place. However, it doesn't change the fact that Climer was correct in labeling what he was describing as rape. I have to disagree with you as it does legally describe rape, even in Arkansas.


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[kyleb]

Well your disagreement is obviously based on something other than Arkansas Law.

 

[gheckso]

Giving drugs for the purpose of affecting behaviour and judgement to obtain unreasoned consent for sex isn't rape?
How's the rohypnol trade going there?
I could link sites but Meh

 

[kyleb]

You could familiarize yourself with the Arkansas laws regarding rape which I provided rather than attacking with a derogatory and false insinuation, but I suppose that would be too much to ask, eh?

 

[Cappuccino]

Maybe you should take your own advice Kyle....

A person commits rape if he or she engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity with another person:
(1) By forcible compulsion;
(2) Who is incapable of consent because he or she is:
(A) Physically helpless;
(B) Mentally defective; or
(C) Mentally incapacitated;

The behaviour Ricky Climer describes is rape under the definition number 2 given above, (and taken from the link you posted but apparently did not read).