Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[MesquiteO21]

Could this be the other Israel Keyes who lived in Eastern WA? Yes, there were 2 Israel Keyes who both lived near Port Orchard/Neah Bay. Both were born in January, both were in the Army and stationed at Ft. Lewis ( at different times). The other Keyes also had ties to New York not far from Constable. He also murdered his gf, her young son, then he also committed suicide.
I mean, what are the odds?!

we are never as unique as we think we are

 

[dub]

The guy you’re referring to is the one that on TCBS they call “Matthew” right? (I think that’s a pseudonym, not his actual name)

I can’t remember if he’s the one from Minnesota or not. Off hand I want to say the guy from Minnesota is someone else, but I’m really not sure.

Bumping my own post to amend it, I found the TCBS episode that discussed this matter again. S1 E15.

Matthew is NOT the guy from Minnesota, and Matthew is seemingly not a pseudonym for Keyes’ best friend from the army (I don’t know his last name, where he’s from or anything about him beyond that though).

The guy from MN they call Dave on TCBS, I think that’s his actual name but I’m not positive. (I’m pretty sure in another episode they reference a Dave that Keyes knew in Neah Bay too—that’s a different guy, just to be clear).

Also it didn’t seem like Matthews name was redacted from the FBI files, but big chunks of his conversations with them (and in one case an entire conversation) were.

 

[dub]

Uhhhh… has anyone else been listening to the new season of True Crime BS? Not to quote Nancy Grace but… seriously? “BOMBSHELL!”

In Episode 0602 titled Broken Headlight Flicker, Josh talks about the new information they’ve learned from the Currier file notes.

At 28:10, Josh reads a section of the file notes that describe a phone conversation the Currier lead investigator had with an FBI agent. There was a discussion about two letters IK wrote to family members, in which he tells a story detailing at least six different murders. The notes were dated 4 months before IK committed suicide but go on to say that IK has drawn 11 skulls using his own blood.

WHICH MEANS… the FBI didn’t find those skulls AFTER he killed himself. So, the drawings weren’t some kind of hidden message that Keyes chose to leave behind about his victims. This also means the FBI knew that he had the means to kill himself at least 4 months before he actually did it. AND they clearly have information about at least three other murders/victims (from the letter to his brother) but have chosen not to reveal what they know or even acknowledge that they know it!

Yeah they were dropping huge bombs in S6 E1 too. Like eight of them, so many that I initially kind of downplayed in my mind the one that you’re talking about haha but that is indeed a massive one.

 

[MesquiteO21]

Bumping my own post to amend it, I found the TCBS episode that discussed this matter again. S1 E15.

Matthew is NOT the guy from Minnesota, and Matthew is seemingly not a pseudonym for Keyes’ best friend from the army (I don’t know his last name, where he’s from or anything about him beyond that though).

The guy from MN they call Dave on TCBS, I think that’s his actual name but I’m not positive. (I’m pretty sure in another episode they reference a Dave that Keyes knew in Neah Bay too—that’s a different guy, just to be clear).

Also it didn’t seem like Matthews name was redacted from the FBI files, but big chunks of his conversations with them (and in one case an entire conversation) were.

Do you know which episode(s) they’ve talked about the friend from Minnesota?

 

[dub]

Do you know which episode(s) they’ve talked about the friend from Minnesota?

Same episode, S1 E15.

 

[Hockeyfan158]

Just thought of another person that might be a victim of his Syble Brumley in April 1997 she lived in a very rural area of Louisiana and her abduction kind of matches Bill and Lorraine Currier abduction and murder. But i don’t know if Keyes was ever in Louisiana but since he traveled all over who knows. Syble Brumley – The Charley Project

 

[Snoopster]

Just thought of another person that might be a victim of his Syble Brumley in April 1997 she lived in a very rural area of Louisiana and her abduction kind of matches Bill and Lorraine Currier abduction and murder. But i don’t know if Keyes was ever in Louisiana but since he traveled all over who knows. Syble Brumley – The Charley Project

Looks like a strange case.
Although anything is possible, this doesn't sound like it's IK, IMO. He tended to be in the northern states in those early years. And I don't recall reading about him smashing up a place. He liked to sneak into places. 1997 was early on in his 'career' though so it's possible his MO evolved.

 

[thelesis]

I remember following Samantha's threads in real time on this forum and I've gone back to read them recently and I notice there's no mention of the 'proof of life' photo with the ransom note. Were posts about it scrubbed from the threads, or am I just completely misremembering everything? I swear I saw the picture here. I'm not looking to find it again, I just want to know if I'm going crazy or not.

 

[Joe Friday]

I remember following Samantha's threads in real time on this forum and I've gone back to read them recently and I notice there's no mention of the 'proof of life' photo with the ransom note. Were posts about it scrubbed from the threads, or am I just completely misremembering everything? I swear I saw the picture here. I'm not looking to find it again, I just want to know if I'm going crazy or not.

There is mention of it in the following linked post. The post is a quoted timeline from an article and was posted long after Keyes was captured and Samantha's body was found. IIRC the ransom note/photo with newspaper was never made public until later also so it was never discussed on Samantha's threads.

AK - Samantha Koenig, 18, Anchorage, 01 Feb 2012 - #7

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/tarrant/FBI-petitions-North-Texans--187190381.html This was posted on my local news website. FBI investigators have pieced together Keyes travels since. And between Feb. 12 and Feb. 16, Special Agent Diego Rodriguez says he was in the Dallas-Fort Worth area...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Muddy K]

"General discussion"

Anyone remember some source talking about keyes commenting on the AL Jazeera website? or about him commenting on other reporting websites?

You probably learned the answer to your question years ago, but yes, Keyes said during one of the FBI interviews that the Al Jazeera website is where he got into some combative chats. It was after his Army deployment to Egypt, after which, he claimed, he arrived at a different perspective on the world and America in particular.

Yes, I am replying in May 2023, seven years later, but while I am deep in research about Israel Keyes. He was like none other.

 

[lydiafaithfull]

I remember following Samantha's threads in real time on this forum and I've gone back to read them recently and I notice there's no mention of the 'proof of life' photo with the ransom note. Were posts about it scrubbed from the threads, or am I just completely misremembering everything? I swear I saw the picture here. I'm not looking to find it again, I just want to know if I'm going crazy or not.

I recall it too, but is this one of those Mandela Effects (“The Berenstein Bears” etc)? Our doom scrolling brains getting the better of us?

 

[lydiafaithfull]

This is old and not even certain I can reply but your post touched me.

I know Israel Keyes. I didn’t know him while alive but “T” ( his ex fiancé and mother to his only child) and his daughter, “L” are people I’ve come to love and truly care for.

I’ve witnessed the pain that his past has forever left a mark on his daughter and his ex’s hearts. At the same time, I’ve been told stories by them about him that I do not believe were him “faking” his love or protection of them.

It’s the very juxtaposition that leaves us baffled- a loving, protective father that even fought for custody of “L” when his ex and my friend “T” began a personal battle with pain med addiction due to a very real Health problem.

Here’s a father going to grave lengths to give his daughter ( who was then a child) the healthiest upbringing he can- even by being a single, full time father and yet the same man capable of kidnapping, raping. Murdering and dismembering James Koenig’s only daughter.

I think it’s easier for us to believe these type of sick individuals are completely evil and void of all and any good. But that’s not the reality. It’s extremely more complex than that. What he did was pure evil, there’s no doubt about that but why? None of us do anything unless we have a reason. “Because I can” was not a sincere answer. Even he may have not understood what led him to such dark impulses.

Israel did, imo, love his daughter, his ex fiancé, her son that he raised as a stepson ( and who so tragically also took his own life almost 6 months after Israel) a young man only 17, just about to start life. That left my friend with the suicide of the man she deeply loved, had a child with, was engaged to, lived with for 5 years ( with ZERO clue what he was doing in the dark) and less than 6 months later, she lost her only son. “L” lost her dad to suicide at age 11 and her only sibling 6 months later.

Most people don’t endure that type of trauma and loss after a whole life time, yet his daughter experienced at age 11. Thankfully she’s a resilient, strong, caring young woman despite her father’s sins. She is an inspiration and I am so proud of her.

( before I forget, someone on here mentioned their anger at him over his “ode to murder” suicide poem and how he didn’t leave his daughter anything - want to clarify that he did leave her with two letters. One arrived the day he was discovered death and the other one she received the day *after* her suicide. FBI confiscated them but did return them to her. I’ll just say he did tell her she was the only bright light in his life and the only human he loved more than himself - he also vaguely apologized because she had asked at the time to not be told what he did, she waited 5 years to find out the extent of his depravity. Yet, like Ive told her, that dark/deviant side of him doesn’t negate the loving, caring, protective father she remembers. I think for her survival, she needs to know he did love her)


Israel loved his mother but they definitely had a complicated relationship yet he still loved her. He loved all of his siblings ( he was the oldest son of ten children).

There are things that occurred to him in his childhood that I’ve never known made public but definitely give anyone with the slightest bit of psychology and pathology understanding a reason to say,’aaaah.’ I am not excusing his heinous crimes, but his formative years give a lot of explanation into the man/monster he became.

His father’s death had a HEAVY impact on him. As he had a very strained relationship with his father that led his father to essentially “disown” him and then forbid all of Israel’s siblings and mother to have any contact with him.

He was an EXTREMELY lonely soul who was very bothered by the fact that he was so inherently different from everyone else he knew. He didn’t like it. He felt flawed, or as he said, “I was very disturbed by it and wondered if I was maybe some demon child.”

I asked his family to request an autopsy so his brain could be studied- I was and am very interested in how formed his prefrontal lobe was. One of his brother did recall Israel falling 8 feet off a ladder and having a head injury from it when Israel was around 12-13 years old. According to his mother and siblings, his odd/secretive/deviant behavior began around the age of puberty - around 14 years old was the age I was given.

IF he did sustain a serious TBI, and wasn’t treated due to his family’s religious beliefs, then add in the EXTREME beliefs he was required to “adhere” to without any option, opinion, or say of his own ( about really anything in his own life) until he was “disinherited” by the dad, plus living his whole life off the grid, away from typical humans with typical lives, I personally think it makes perfect sense that Israel became who he did.

Although always saying he was an atheist, I know for a fact he actually battled back and forth about his belief in God. It was so entrained in him from birth yet the God portrayed to him was an angry, dictator just waiting to send souls to hell. Israel never heard of a loving, gracious, forgiving God.

You can see his spiritual and internal battle of God by what he said 2 nights before capture to his sisters, mom, and then his moms pastor. Israel’s mom told me she was very aware his last two visits to Texas ( Feb and March 2012) that her son was “unraveling” before her eyes and she knew something very dark was happening with and in him. She tried to get him to talk and open, reminding him that God loved him and could forgiven anything.

Israel’s sister ( who was the closest to emotionally as a sibling) said as they stood out on their moms porch, she began telling Israel how God had changed her the last two years and revealed His love and goodness to her. She said, Israel had tears in his eyes and said, “I really am happy for you. I’m glad you’ve found that. I am. But that’s not possible for me, you don’t understand.”

His mom said each visit she would ask Israel to please allow her pastor ( or 1 of 3 pastors) come and pray and talk to him. She said EVERY time israel defiantly said “No! I’m an atheist! There’s nothing to talk about.” However, this night- March 10,2012 ( only 3 days prior to his capture) when on that front porch, she again asked if her pastor could talk to him.

She was shocked when Israel said, “yeah, I will talk to him.”
As her pastor came over, Israel’s mom went inside but his sister remained outside with Israel. This is when Israel says, “no one understands the depths of darkness I’ve gone to. There’s no coming back from what I’ve done. I have to drink every night just to pass out and sleep to get these images out of my head.”

The pastor begins to tell Israel, there is not a SINGLE sin imaginable or unimaginable that God can’t forgive.

At that, Israel looked at the pastor and said, “man, you’re just wasting your time. I’m an atheist.”

The pastor said when Israel said that, he gently put his arm on Israel’s shoulder, looked him in the eyes and said, “Israel, no. It’s not that you don’t believe in Him. It’s that you’re angry at Him. Tell me, when did you decide to hate God?”

According to his sister and the pastor, at that, Israel buckled to his knees and he didn’t just cry, he wept.

After he wept, they said he stood up, bucked out his chest and said “this conversation is over.” He went inside, grabbed some his daughter, his alcohol and cigars, then drove not too far down the road to the hotel he was staying in. Within 3 days he was captured and within 9 months, he was dead from suicide. That pastor is the one that led Israel’s funeral for his family ( only 7 people attended, 2 were pastors).

“T” ( his ex fiancé) said he was in a non stop interval war with himself and the God he “didn’t believe in.”

Oddly enough, the very name “Israel” means: to wrestle with God.

The pastor sure changed his tune…

 

[dub]

So a thread got posted for Roger Jung (last seen 9/25/05) in the 2000s missing forum. He was apparently just entered on namus, and there is a really important detail that is different from his Charley Project file.

CP states that his car was never found, but according to namus it WAS found, in Chelan County (eastern WA) nine months after he disappeared. It had a parks pass in it that was dated 10/27/05, which is oddly a month after he disappeared.

I had Roger on my radar (though not a “likely” victim) before due in part to Keyes taking the ferry eastbound right into Roger’s area, with no return trip westbound, the day that Roger disappeared. But he took that ferry often enough, could be a coincidence.

But here is the new wrinkle: Keyes’ very next ferry trip was at 6am on 10/28, the day after the parks pass was dated, westbound with no corresponding eastbound trip.

Feels much less like a coincidence now.

 

[WyomingSkyAngel]

So a thread got posted for Roger Jung (last seen 9/25/05) in the 2000s missing forum. He was apparently just entered on namus, and there is a really important detail that is different from his Charley Project file.

CP states that his car was never found, but according to namus it WAS found, in Chelan County (eastern WA) nine months after he disappeared. It had a parks pass in it that was dated 10/27/05, which is oddly a month after he disappeared.

I had Roger on my radar (though not a “likely” victim) before due in part to Keyes taking the ferry eastbound right into Roger’s area, with no return trip westbound, the day that Roger disappeared. But he took that ferry often enough, could be a coincidence.

But here is the new wrinkle: Keyes’ very next ferry trip was at 6am on 10/28, the day after the parks pass was dated, westbound with no corresponding eastbound trip.

Feels much less like a coincidence now.

Thanks for sharing this................

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[dub]

I found a case that to my knowledge has never been linked to Keyes before that would help explain two separate issues within the Keyes victim search. The two issues are as follows:

1. The Tennessee mystery: Three NAMUS 44 cases in Tennessee, no evidence of Keyes ever having been there - what is the connection? TCBS thinks it's highway 412, as all the cases occurred near this highway, but I've thought for a while that could be a red herring, and I may have found the workaround.

2. The Anita Scott problem: In some ways she is a good match for the "older model car/wealthy grandmother" victim, but in some tellings of the story, the victim is a young woman with brown hair, neither of which matches Anita, who was blonde and in her late 50s. (The video/transcript of this Keyes interview hasn't been released, so what exactly he said is unknown).

The case that could bridge both gaps is the disappearance of Misty Sullivan, from Tennessee, six days before Anita Scott disappeared and about a 12 hour drive away.

Misty Anne Sullivan – The Charley Project

The idea here is that Keyes may have been responsible for both Misty's and Anita's disappearances. It's either both or neither. Both are incredibly similar on the surface--last seen leaving home in the burbs, car found in a nearby more urban area. Misty's was found right by a boat ramp.

Both have pretty strong date/location matches on the NAMUS 44:

-Anita Scott with Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone (one calendar day off/wrong year, same location)

-Misty Sullivan with Asha Degree (same calendar day/wrong year. Asha disappeared from Shelby NC; Misty's car found at Shelby Park in Nashville).

And Keyes' description of the older model car victim seems to be a mix of both Anita and Misty. Anita drove the older model car, and had a wealthy uncle, not grandmother. Misty was a young woman with dark hair, and lived with her grandmother (not sure whether she was wealthy or not).


Here's how it would solve the Tennessee problem: Misty did not disappear near highway 412, she disappeared from a suburb of Nashville called Madison. And:

-Bethany Markowski disappeared from Madison County TN.

-Amber Cates disappeared from a suburb of Nashville.

-Holly Bobo disappeared from close to Madison County, although hers also was high profile enough that it probably would have hit on any Keyes MP searches of Tennessee.


The problem, as always, is there is no record of Keyes ever being in Tennessee, and both disappearances took place in early 2003, which is the biggest dead zone on his entire timeline. Because of that, I don't have these cases on my very short list of likely Keyes victims, but they are just one step outside of that, and if they were, it would explain a lot.

 

[megs1288]

I found a case that to my knowledge has never been linked to Keyes before that would help explain two separate issues within the Keyes victim search. The two issues are as follows:

1. The Tennessee mystery: Three NAMUS 44 cases in Tennessee, no evidence of Keyes ever having been there - what is the connection? TCBS thinks it's highway 412, as all the cases occurred near this highway, but I've thought for a while that could be a red herring, and I may have found the workaround.

2. The Anita Scott problem: In some ways she is a good match for the "older model car/wealthy grandmother" victim, but in some tellings of the story, the victim is a young woman with brown hair, neither of which matches Anita, who was blonde and in her late 50s. (The video/transcript of this Keyes interview hasn't been released, so what exactly he said is unknown).

The case that could bridge both gaps is the disappearance of Misty Sullivan, from Tennessee, six days before Anita Scott disappeared and about a 12 hour drive away.

Misty Anne Sullivan – The Charley Project

The idea here is that Keyes may have been responsible for both Misty's and Anita's disappearances. It's either both or neither. Both are incredibly similar on the surface--last seen leaving home in the burbs, car found in a nearby more urban area. Misty's was found right by a boat ramp.

Both have pretty strong date/location matches on the NAMUS 44:

-Anita Scott with Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone (one calendar day off/wrong year, same location)

-Misty Sullivan with Asha Degree (same calendar day/wrong year. Asha disappeared from Shelby NC; Misty's car found at Shelby Park in Nashville).

And Keyes' description of the older model car victim seems to be a mix of both Anita and Misty. Anita drove the older model car, and had a wealthy uncle, not grandmother. Misty was a young woman with dark hair, and lived with her grandmother (not sure whether she was wealthy or not).


Here's how it would solve the Tennessee problem: Misty did not disappear near highway 412, she disappeared from a suburb of Nashville called Madison. And:

-Bethany Markowski disappeared from Madison County TN.

-Amber Cates disappeared from a suburb of Nashville.

-Holly Bobo disappeared from close to Madison County, although hers also was high profile enough that it probably would have hit on any Keyes MP searches of Tennessee.


The problem, as always, is there is no record of Keyes ever being in Tennessee, and both disappearances took place in early 2003, which is the biggest dead zone on his entire timeline. Because of that, I don't have these cases on my very short list of likely Keyes victims, but they are just one step outside of that, and if they were, it would explain a lot.

I think that the biggest issue people have with certain cases is that there are no records of travel at that time...what is being missed is that in an FBI interview Keyes specifically stated that when he wanted to create an alibi or wanted people to know where he was he would use a credit/debit card...otherwise he would use cash...so the fact that there's no documented financial or travel info is hardly a way to rule him out. I would look to see if he in fact COULD be located and if not then I would consider him suspect.

 

[Falling Down]

I think that the biggest issue people have with certain cases is that there are no records of travel at that time...what is being missed is that in an FBI interview Keyes specifically stated that when he wanted to create an alibi or wanted people to know where he was he would use a credit/debit card...otherwise he would use cash...so the fact that there's no documented financial or travel info is hardly a way to rule him out. I would look to see if he in fact COULD be located and if not then I would consider him suspect.

I've read where.a lot of his stalking and crimes coincided with family events, I'd guess he would use cash once he would put the wheels in motion for attacks or was stalking people.

 

[dub]

I think that the biggest issue people have with certain cases is that there are no records of travel at that time...what is being missed is that in an FBI interview Keyes specifically stated that when he wanted to create an alibi or wanted people to know where he was he would use a credit/debit card...otherwise he would use cash...so the fact that there's no documented financial or travel info is hardly a way to rule him out. I would look to see if he in fact COULD be located and if not then I would consider him suspect.

Totally. And there are areas in which Keyes was especially cagey about his presence there, when it seems pretty clear that he was there at times from an abundance of Namus hits etc - Tennessee and Pennsylvania (where Misty and Anita disappeared from) are maybe the two biggest ones.

Whats even more frustrating is that the FBI has significantly more travel info than what they’ve released. For example, they know exactly when he was in Oklahoma and when he was in Albuquerque, but they aren’t saying.

TCBS has done great work to put Keyes in a lot of places at a lot of times beyond what the FBI has released, but the above two are ones that they have not been able to crack. And what he was up to in the first half of 2003, when Misty and Anita disappeared, is another.

Eta: for what it’s worth, my best guess on when he was in OK/ABQ is late august 2009. But early 03 is a black hole and I have no earthly clue on that.