Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[RealityMan]

Just curious: does anyone know which way (east, west) TA's house was oriented (and specifically, which way his bedroom or bathroom windows faced)? I'm wondering whether the bright light that appears to extend from the direction of TA's feet in the "JA's track pants/TA's bleeding shoulder" photo should be attributed to the bathroom windows, or the bedroom windows. It was approaching evening, so I'm picturing strong, direct sunlight coming in the west-facing windows.

Figuring out which way they were oriented would go a long way toward determining the sequence of events for me (and trying to figure out where the camera was for each photo, and how could possibly have gotten there.) I know JA said that the "track pants" photo was taken with TA's feet toward the bathroom, but I have a sneaky suspicion she's not a particularly reliable source...

When detective Flores showed the photo to JA during the interrogation, JA immediately recognized the bathroom in the background.

 

[RealityMan]

Exactly how it seemed to me: If his legs are stretched in front of him and his head and torso upright, how are you going to get the forward motion? The only way to drag him, it would seem, is to get the arms and have the torso and legs behind, and drag him that way - completely turned around.

I think it can be done the way I depicted, at least on a tile floor covered in water and blood. She is just using his body weight to create the leverage to drag him.

I don't think she could easily turn him around because of the hallway being too narrow. And for some reason, at least in the last photo, she's pulling on his arms and not his feet.

Also there was no tearing of the stab wounds on his back, so JA probably didn't drag him on his back

I think we need a reenactment!

 

[SMK]

Keep in mind that my depiction only represents a split second in time. Do you agree with my depiction for that split second? Who knows what happened afterwards. Maybe she was just wrestling with his body and didn't actually drag him that way. I'm still thinking she drags him that way, though. Her body would've been in the photo if she was pulling him from behind.

Yes, and the blood streaks on TA's back are almost exactly the same between the last two photos. That's why I don't think much happened in the 76 seconds between the photos. The camera is probably in the same spot as the previous photo, just rotated 45 degrees or so.

yep, i do : for that split second!:great:

 

[SMK]

I think it can be done the way I depicted, at least on a tile floor covered in water and blood. She is just using his body weight to create the leverage to drag him.

I don't think she could easily turn him around because of the hallway being too narrow. And for some reason, at least in the last photo, she's pulling on his arms and not his feet.

Also there was no tearing of the stab wounds on his back, so JA probably didn't drag him on his back

I think we need a reenactment!

With you in the starring role, RealityMan - get working on it - fabulous idea!

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

When detective Flores showed the photo to JA during the interrogation, JA immediately recognized the bathroom in the background.

I think she recognized the tile floor, and not necessarily what whether it was in the hallway or in the bathroom proper.

 

[geevee]

I think it can be done the way I depicted, at least on a tile floor covered in water and blood. She is just using his body weight to create the leverage to drag him.

I don't think she could easily turn him around because of the hallway being too narrow. And for some reason, at least in the last photo, she's pulling on his arms and not his feet.

Also there was no tearing of the stab wounds on his back, so JA probably didn't drag him on his back

I think we need a reenactment!

I don't think the question is if she could drag him in such a manner, but why would she try? The floor is covered in blood, the water was left on in the shower the whole time so the floor was plenty slick, she just needed traction on her feet and putting him on the shower mat (to help keep more blood off the floor) and the mat on the sheet or duvet cover gave her the ability to pull him down the hallway back to the shower.

Considering the hallway is only about 12 feet long along the longest wall, and he's almost 6 feet long, she didn't have to drag him too far.

 

[pip]

I don't think the question is if she could drag him in such a manner, but why would she try? The floor is covered in blood, the water was left on in the shower the whole time so the floor was plenty slick, she just needed traction on her feet and putting him on the shower mat (to help keep more blood off the floor) and the mat on the sheet or duvet cover gave her the ability to pull him down the hallway back to the shower.

Considering the hallway is only about 12 feet long along the longest wall, and he's almost 6 feet long, she didn't have to drag him too far.

I still think it is a tarp in that pic. I also wonder if she brought the rope and the knife to tie up the tarp securely around him after she wrapped him. Ultimate plan to take his body and dispose of it/burn it in the desert where she got rid of the rest of the evidence. I think the rope fibers found were from her cutting the rope. Of course her plan veered off track when Travis got out of the shower and so much blood was spilled at the scene. There was no tie up sex session. If you believe she is lying about the tie up sex play..then what was the rope for?

 

[Midnight Meddler]

I think she recognized the tile floor, and not necessarily what whether it was in the hallway or in the bathroom proper.

I remember her pointing toward the right side of the photo - the 'light' part in the background of the photo.. hmmm...

 

[slanda]

We agree on almost all points. lol I think she had the knife in her purse (as she did like stabbing tires, it seems) and meant to stab him in the heart because she saw everything he said to her as stabs to her heart, she is very literal.

But I don't think she intended that blood bath, she probably figured a roommate would find him that night or the next day and she'd be up in Utah, surrounded by people who could alibi her, when she didn't hear he'd been found she scooted on home 'to be at work that night' and finish waiting for him to get found.

I agree, I don't think she intended the blood bath either. I guess I was just trying to say is that: (in my scenario) when the gun jammed (which she didn't anticipate and TA got out of the shower to the sink/ which she didn't plan on either)
She got a knife/the knife and attacked him with it. And somewhere in that moment, she "liked" it, she went into a psychotic frenzy. I mean the 29 stab wounds would have been plenty, but she went for the coup de gras in her frenzy and I don't think she "intended" to do that, I think she went batshit crazy.

 

[RealityMan]

I remember her pointing toward the right side of the photo - the 'light' part in the background of the photo.. hmmm...

Exactly. She positively identified the photo as having TA's right foot oriented toward the bathroom.

 

[geevee]

Exactly. She positively identified the photo as having TA's right foot oriented toward the bathroom.

I think the camera remained in the same general location in which it fell after the ceiling shot, near the linen closet door.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I still think it is a tarp in that pic. I also wonder if she brought the rope and the knife to tie up the tarp securely around him after she wrapped him. Ultimate plan to take his body and dispose of it/burn it in the desert where she got rid of the rest of the evidence. I think the rope fibers found were from her cutting the rope. Of course her plan veered off track when Travis got out of the shower and so much blood was spilled at the scene. There was no tie up sex session. If you believe she is lying about the tie up sex play..then what was the rope for?

There was no rope. There were some fibers, but they don't appear to be from a rope.

 

[RealityMan]

I think the camera remained in the same general location in which it fell after the ceiling shot, near the linen closet door.

I don't think JA dropped the camera in the bathroom during or after the ceiling shot. That's just a story that JA concocted after seeing the photographic evidence and trying to provide a justification for self defense. I believe detective Flores testified that the bathroom ceiling shot was taken at about waist high. In other words, the camera was still in JA's right hand at that point. Imagine if the camera was pointed toward the shower instead of the ceiling. I think then we would have a definitive answer as to whether JA used the gun first or the knife first because I think JA has already dealt the intial blow by then.

It is almost certain from the first bleeding photo that, 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling shot, the camera is upside down on one of the tiles closest to the bedroom and facing towards the bathroom (see wilsodh's crime scene reconstruction).

In the last photo, the camera has just been rotated to the right slightly. It's still down where JA dropped it at the end of the hallway. I think JA might've dropped the camera at the end of the hallway when running down the hallway to retrieve the knife. She might've had to use both hands to retrieve the knife from her purse or backpack.

 

[Wolfpack Fan]

I was just watching HLN, and Jodi told Juan that Travis got in the linebacker stance, lunged at her, and put his hands around her waist as the gun went off. I thought it was stated that Jodi had to have been at least two feet away from Travis when he was shot because there was no stippling. I think she changed her story, though, when she found out he couldn't have been that close

 

[RealityMan]

Not to give the knife firsters any more ammunition, but there is one thing in particular that bothers me about the gun-first theory (and, no, I'm not talking about the ME's testimony):

When the jury asked JA why she just didn't fire another shot, JA answered that she didn't know where the gun went. That seems like a strange answer to me. If the gun jammed, which is a likely event in a gun-first scenario, then why didn't JA just say that?

She might've been trying to maintain her position that, after the first shot, she entered the fog. Or she might've just been trying to be consistent with what she told Dr. Samuels. In other words, maybe she didn't want to add any details beyond what she told Dr. Samuels. Or she might've been trying to support her story that TA lunged at her after she fired the gun.

In any case, I'm a little bit surprised she didn't just answer the jury's question by saying that the gun jammed if that's really what happenned.

It's possible that she decided against firing another shot based on the noise of the gun and went to the knife instead, knowing TA was nearly incapacitated and unable to fight back at that point. If that's the reason she didn't fire another shot, I don't blame her for telling the jury that she just lost track of the gun.

 

[wilsodh]

I see that line of blood more an indication of what Jodi did with the water. Those aren't passive drops. Passive drops are clean roundish drops. That blood has been disturbed by water, and is not in its original position from initial deposit on the floor.

What I meant by 'passive' drops is that the blood stains are not all over the place in random fashion, but follow a line, suggesting that the blood source was no longer involved in a fight, but was immobile and being dragged in a straight line.

In attachment 1 below, the blood trail leads directly from the location of the huge blood pool on the carpet. While one can invoke various scenarios, the simplest explanation is that a dead Travis was being dragged from this location on the carpet to the bathroom.

As far as the effects of water, when blood spills on a surface and is allowed to coagulate for some period of time (such when Jodi was stuffing Travis in the shower), throwing some water on the floor is NOT going to cause the spot to move to a new location. It may remove some of the un-coagulated blood and spread it around in dilute form, smearing edges, etc., but the basic blood spot/stain will remain unless someone start scrubbing (HARD) to remove it.

I think the photo in attachment 2 shows this. The variegated blood stains on the floor are from the water removing some of the blood from the floor stains, diluting this soluble blood, and then the water dries on the floor and leaves this appearance.

What you don't see in attachment 1 is the variegated appearance suggesting that there was much blood solublized by the water. What you do see is some smearing of the blood stains along the blood trail. But the blood trail is clearly there. Its pretty obvious to me that this blood trail was likely left when Travis was being dragged back to the bathroom.

Sure, it's hard, that's why she gave up. She didn't clean it all or even most of it. But it does appear she did clear off that area in front of the carpet. He would have been moved over that area going toward the carpet and going back toward the bathroom.

Per above. There is clearly some smearing of the blood spots by water, but I don't see any indication there was a major effort by Jodi to get on her hands and knees and scrub this floor down. I agree, she gave up, probably quickly, when she realized how hopeless the task was. But the story of the blood reads like a good novel and it remains intact, despite some smearing by Jodi's passive attempt at cleaning up. It all fits together perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle. You may disagree, but I don't see any missing pieces!

A final thing I would add regarding whether Travis bled out on the tiles prior to the 'foot' and 'dragging' photos, or bled out on the carpet at the location of the major carpet stain: one has to ask whether there was arterial pressure when this carpet stain was made, or had Travis' heart stopped beating prior to the carpet stain. The heaviness of this stain and the indications of arterial spray suggest Travis had blood pressure at this location. If Travis had bled out of two severed carotid arteries prior to the 'foot' photo, and been allowed to bleed out for a minimum of 76 seconds (prior to the 'dragging' photo), he would have had zero blood pressure and his heart would have stopped prior to the carpet stain. There would have been some passive flow of residual blood, but no blood being actively pumped from the wound.

Dave

 

[sacrablue]

I keep asking myself....why would someone bring a high quality knife and a gun to a murder if you were not planning to use both? Why would someone take a chance stabbing their victim in a small enclosure? Why would you let someone out of an enclosure to stand still while you stabbed them? The gun had one purpose and that was a very deliberate shot aimed at the head of the victim.
I believe dead or alive JA was going to slit his throat. It was done almost surgically and precise compare to the rest of the knife work.

 

[wilsodh]

Opps, forgot one.

I believe it looks like it's going right to left. As RM said, you should see her legs in the photo if she were behind him.

You guys are killing me.

Look at the photo again. The only real reference point we have is the blood streak off Travis' right shoulder. Looking at the 'foot' photo, the streak is, what, 1-2 inches across? What we are seeing in the camera field is a tiny fraction of Travis' body, and his body is close to the camera. I think we are being badly fooled by the photo into thinking we are seeing more of the body that we actually are. RM's fine attempt to make sense of this photo is out of scale: the cartoon is scaled much smaller than it should be given the area we are actually looking at.

I also think we are being fooled into over-estimating the height of Travis' body from the floor. The body is very close to the camera, and the height is smaller than it appears in the image. Using the width of the blood streak as a reference point, the body might not be much more than 12 inches off the floor. This would be consistent with the body being pulled backward without any great feat of strength by Jodi pulling from behind, as most normal people would likely do.

The matter of why we don't see Jodi's feet is simple: the camera has a 2-second delay, and after it was jostled Jodi moved to the right out of the field of view. The camera is very close to the action, so it doesn't take much time or distance to be out view. One wonders if the telephoto was somehow activated to make the baseboard look closer than it really is.

No matter how you slice it, it is one wacked out photo!

Dave

 

[slanda]

Opps, forgot one.



You guys are killing me.

Look at the photo again. The only real reference point we have is the blood streak off Travis' right shoulder. Looking at the 'foot' photo, the streak is, what, 1-2 inches across? What we are seeing in the camera field is a tiny fraction of Travis' body, and his body is close to the camera. I think we are being badly fooled by the photo into thinking we are seeing more of the body that we actually are. RM's fine attempt to make sense of this photo is out of scale: the cartoon is scaled much smaller than it should be given the area we are actually looking at.


I also think we are being fooled into over-estimating the height of Travis' body from the floor. The body is very close to the camera, and the height is smaller than it appears in the image. Using the width of the blood streak as a reference point, the body might not be much more than 12 inches off the floor. This would be consistent with the body being pulled backward without any great feat of strength by Jodi pulling from behind, as most normal people would likely do.

The matter of why we don't see Jodi's feet is simple: the camera has a 2-second delay, and after it was jostled Jodi moved to the right out of the field of view. The camera is very close to the action, so it doesn't take much time or distance to be out view. One wonders if the telephoto was somehow activated to make the baseboard look closer than it really is.

No matter how you slice it, it is one wacked out photo!

Dave

Dave,

Forgive me if you've already stated your opinion, I've read so many scenarios to make my head spin. :banghead: as I'm sure we all have...

And I do want to thank you for sequencing the scene following the forensics. It makes a lot of sense to me :cheers:

Maybe I missed it, but what do you think initially happened in the shower? I was wondering if you maybe read my sequence of events regarding my own scenario, and I think it matches the forensics in the shower/sink area, I'd like your thoughts, please. Do you think he was shot or stabbed first?

And if you've already answered this, I'm sorry :blushing:

 

[wilsodh]

Dave,

Forgive me if you've already stated your opinion, I've read so many scenarios to make my head spin. :banghead: as I'm sure we all have...

And I do want to thank you for sequencing the scene following the forensics. It makes a lot of sense to me :cheers:

Maybe I missed it, but what do you think initially happened in the shower? I was wondering if you maybe read my sequence of events regarding my own scenario, and I think it matches the forensics in the shower/sink area, I'd like your thoughts, please. Do you think he was shot or stabbed first?

And if you've already answered this, I'm sorry :blushing:

Hi Slanda!

Pleased to meet you! I'm a 100% dyed-in-the-wool, stark raving mad gunfirster. I've argued gunfirst passionately since my very first posts on Websleuths (#258 and #269, page 11 of this thread). I absolutely believe the gun-first scenario fits the forensics and it also happens to make the most common sense.

You got it right with your scenario... welcome to the 'right' side!
:toast:
Dave