Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Smelly Squirrel]

First time poster, long time member. Here is what I think happened :
Pic @ 5 :30pm of Travis in the shower, looks surprised & scared
Next pic he is sitting down in the shower.

He's sitting down in both pics. And he looks no different than he does in many of his pictures. He liked mugging for the camera.

http://www.myspace.com/tvalexander/photos/1537668#mssrc=SitesPhotos_AP_ViewPhoto

Does he have that face in that picture because a gun or knife is pointed at him?

 

[RealityMan]

Just listened to the ME testimony. When they discussed the stab to the chest that penetrated the SVC here is what the ME said:

"It's a significant injury, it would definitely cause death without medical attention."

JM asked if it was the most or least fatal and the ME said it was in the middle of the 3 wounds, slash of the through 1st, gun shot 3rd.

He did say that it was not immediate that it would take minutes for the chest stab. He said the neck cut and gun shot would be immediate loss of consciousness.


It starts at 1:48:00 if anyone wants to prove it for themselves.

The ME also said this:

Defense: And do you remember telling Detective Flores that you knew this because the gunshot wound would not have completely incapacitated somebody

ME: I don't recall saying that either

Defense: Is that something you think you would have never said to Detective Flores?

ME: I think I've said it here in court that I don't think it would immediately incapacitate him or kill him. But it would be a serious injury, but I don't recall telling Detective Flores that, no.

Defense: Ok, so, let me back up for a second, so you are saying the gunshot wound is not immediately incapacitating?

ME: I would say not immediately fatal

Defense: I'm not talking about fatal, I'm just talking about incapacitating

ME: I think...yes, it would be incapacitating, passing through his brain, so yes

Defense: So...and that's assuming it was passing through his brain, you would say it is incapacitating.

ME: I'm saying it did pass through his brain

Thus, although the ME said that the bullet passed through TA's brain and the gunshot wound was a "serious injury," he also said "it would not immediately incapacitate or kill him." That's a direct quote from the ME.

Also, when asked if the bullet passing through his brain was incapacitating, the ME answered "I'm saying it did pass through his brain," not "Yes."

These and other parts of the ME's testimony demonstrate that the ME has not ruled out the gunshot first possibility.

 

[LambChop]

I'm not disputing it would take longer. I'm disputing the idea that there was only one fatal wound.

Didn't JM establish there were three potentially fatal wounds? The gunshot wound was based on what would be true in most cases not on what might happen in a small percentage of cases. That is the way I understood it but I was having problems with freezing frames and lost connections in the beginning of the trial. jmo

 

[RealityMan]

He's sitting down in both pics. And he looks no different than he does in many of his pictures. He liked mugging for the camera.

http://www.myspace.com/tvalexander/photos/1537668#mssrc=SitesPhotos_AP_ViewPhoto

Does he have that face in that picture because a gun or knife is pointed at him?

Exactly. 70 seconds later, he still hasn't moved his arms from the face picture pose. I don't think TA would continue to sit in that relatively relaxed pose for 70 seconds if JA had threatened him at any point between the last two shower pictures.

I do believe JA is moving in for the kill, though, when she accidentally snaps that last shower photo. 44 seconds later, JA accidentally takes the bathroom ceiling photo, and 62 seconds after that, JA has inflicted all 27 stab wounds and slashed TA's neck at the end of the hallway, as evidenced by the first bleeding photo.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Didn't JM establish there were three potentially fatal wounds? The gunshot wound was based on what would be true in most cases not on what might happen in a small percentage of cases. That is the way I understood it but I was having problems with freezing frames and lost connections in the beginning of the trial. jmo

Well, he believes the cause of death is the two big stab wounds. If there weren't those wounds, yes the gunshot would have been eventually fatal. He also said the back and head stab wounds would have been fatal over time as well (we're talking without medical help for this and the gunshot). But the fastest acting and ultimate cause of death were the throat cut and the chest stab.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Exactly. 70 seconds later, he still hasn't moved his arms from the face picture pose. I don't think TA would continue to sit in that relatively relaxed pose for 70 seconds if JA had threatened him at any point between the last two shower pictures.

Yes, and we don't know what he did in between, he may have gotten up or looked at the camera with JA.

I likewise greatly doubt she had pulled a weapon yet. I don't think it happened until the ceiling photo.

 

[RealityMan]

Yes, and we don't know what he did in between, he may have gotten up or looked at the camera with JA.

I likewise greatly doubt she had pulled a weapon yet. I don't think it happened until the ceiling photo.

Yes, I truly believe JA pulled the weapon in the 44 seconds between the last shower shot and the ceiling shot photo. I think JA accidentally snaps the ceiling shot photo in a moment of panic when she realizes her initial blow was not fatal and TA starts emerging from the shower.

I doubt TA got up until after suffering the initial blow because JA directed him into that pose to make him more vulnerable and TA had been holding the pose for 70 seconds already when she went in for the kill.

 

[RealityMan]

Probably kicked or, less likely, she did hold it the entire time till she reached the end of the hallway. Travis may have pushed it even when he was crawling.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkqVwCbgtA#t=45m20s

And for a demonstration of the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkqVwCbgtA#t=112m53s



Melendez testified on this at about 1:18 above.



No, because of the shape of the camera. The top isn't flat.

In the attachment below, look at the reenactment photo taken from the floor compared to the original camera photo. The bodies are the same proportions.

She'd need very long arms to be holding the camera that low.



I'm sure she wishes it hadn't happened that way, but it did.

In looking at the picture of the camera, it is even more improbable to me that the camera could've landed upside down on the floor and balanced on its top in such a perfect orientation as to capture that photo. It should be easy to prove whether the photo was on the ground or not by the angle at which the photo was snapped. Just rest the camera on its top edge and snap a test photo. Then compare the angle of the test photo to the two bleeding shots.

I really don't think the angles will match or even that the angles will be the same between the last two photos.

The only thing that makes sense to me is JA was still holding the camera in her right hand. Remember, we know she still had the camera in her right hand just 62 seconds before the first bleeding photo was taken (see the bathroom ceiling photo). Also, if that is JA's right leg in the picture, what could possibly have triggered the camera to take the last two photos?

I wonder if it's possible that that's JA's left leg in the first bleeding photo and that JA triggered the photo with her own right hand.

Note that if JA is still holding the camera, JA could not have been holding two weapons at any point in the 62 seconds between the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo.

 

[wilsodh]

The ME also said this:


Thus, although the ME said that the bullet passed through TA's brain and the gunshot wound was a "serious injury," he also said "it would not immediately incapacitate or kill him." That's a direct quote from the ME.

Also, when asked if the bullet passing through his brain was incapacitating, the ME answered "I'm saying it did pass through his brain," not "Yes."

These and other parts of the ME's testimony demonstrate that the ME has not ruled out the gunshot first possibility.

Agreed. Thanks for digging this up.

I don't think the jury is expected to think about that other than she is lying. They will be more concerned that JM has proven beyond a doubt that Jodi has lied time and time again in order to paint herself as a victim to save her life. Their focus will be how much do we believe happened the way Jodi claims. Did she plan it? We can see the closet story does not give her enough time according to the recorded pictures that make up the timeline, so she is lying. Jodi is stuck with her story and that will be what is the primary discussion I would think.

And it would not surprise me because JM is not focusing on which came first. He seems to be focusing on her claims that she was in a fog afterwards. If the jury believes she is telling the truth about the fog they might be less likely to sentence her to death and lean more towards LWOP. That is what defense is aiming for. It is clear Jodi was not stabbing him to death to keep him from killing her. Once he was at that sink there was nothing in her way to keep her in that bathroom. Her instinct would have been to flee if she felt threatened and not to stay and "finish" him off. The gunshot last would leave an impression on the jury "I don't have time for this" and she finishes him off with a shot to the head. So shot first or last it is what happened with the stabbing that is the main issue here. I don't think either way is good for her. jmo

Agree... to a point. Neither scenario is good, but I suspect there may have been some desire on the part of the state to support a position that the knife came first. If the jury can be convinced with evidence to that effect, then Jodi is clearly lying again. However, if the ME equivocates that either gun or knife could have come first, it weakens the state's position that Jodi is telling another whopper. If the state were to have gone with their original position that the gun came first, at least in principle the events are consistent with Jodi's story. She could have shot Travis in self defense and then fogged out.

This is why I think Horn's consistency and testimony should be scrutinized. Yes, of course Jodi is a monster, she did it, and deserves her punishment. But the legal process needs to be unbiased and 100% objective. If either scenario could fit the evidence, this should be made clear to the jury. I'm not sure it has.

Dave

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

In looking at the picture of the camera, it is even more improbable to me that the camera could've landed upside down on the floor and balanced on its top in such a perfect orientation as to capture that photo. It should be easy to prove whether the photo was on the ground or not by the angle at which the photo was snapped. Just rest the camera on its top edge and snap a test photo. Then compare the angle of the test photo to the two bleeding shots.

Did you watch when Melendez rested it on the desk there?

 

[RealityMan]

Did you watch when Melendez rested it on the desk there?

Yep, I saw that. It would be interesting to try 100 test drops of the camera to see how it lands each time. For example, is the camera balanced in such a way that it would naturally come to a rest on its top, back, or bottom? In any case, the angle that the camera rests on its top would have to be consistent between the last two photos. It just doesn't look to me like those angles are consistent.

 

[LambChop]

In looking at the picture of the camera, it is even more improbable to me that the camera could've landed upside down on the floor and balanced on its top in such a perfect orientation as to capture that photo. It should be easy to prove whether the photo was on the ground or not by the angle at which the photo was snapped. Just rest the camera on its top edge and snap a test photo. Then compare the angle of the test photo to the two bleeding shots.

I really don't think the angles will match or even that the angles will be the same between the last two photos.

The only thing that makes sense to me is JA was still holding the camera in her right hand. Remember, we know she still had the camera in her right hand just 62 seconds before the first bleeding photo was taken (see the bathroom ceiling photo). Also, if that is JA's right leg in the picture, what could possibly have triggered the camera to take the last two photos?

I wonder if it's possible that that's JA's left leg in the first bleeding photo and that JA triggered the photo with her own right hand.

Note that if JA is still holding the camera, JA could not have been holding two weapons at any point in the 62 seconds between the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo.

Didn't Jodi say that they were trying to figure out the timer on his camera. Is it possible the timer was preset and if Jodi kicked it the timer was activated until the last shot. There had to be blood all over that camera and that could be a reason for throwing it in the washer. She just forgot to remove the memory card. Her blood had to have been on the camera if she picked it up so there was no way she would take it and leaving it behind would have her DNA on it. Maybe deleting and leaving the memory card in it was deliberate because she wanted LE to believe it was placed in the washer by accident not realizing the bleach just would not damage the card. jmo

 

[RealityMan]

Didn't Jodi say that they were trying to figure out the timer on his camera. Is it possible the timer was preset and if Jodi kicked it the timer was activated until the last shot.

I wondered about that too. But the timestamps on the last photos are not separated by a consistent amount. It would be interesting to learn more about the default timer settings on that camera, though.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Agree... to a point. Neither scenario is good, but I suspect there may have been some desire on the part of the state to support a position that the knife came first.

They already had probable cause for the death penalty with the gun first. They only changed because of the misunderstanding.

If the jury can be convinced with evidence to that effect, then Jodi is clearly lying again.

Eh, Jodi is clearly lying no matter what the state says. Her story of the body slam, etc. is unbelievable all on its own. And even if it was believed to the point she says of when the gun went off by accident, what she did after that still could not be self-defense or 2nd degree. The autopsy photos are all you need to prove that. There's no way the jury acquits. Zero chance. Odds are it will be conviction of murder 1. The best she can hope for is a mistrial and in time a life sentence.

 

[RealityMan]

Eh, Jodi is clearly lying no matter what the state says. Her story of the body slam, etc. is unbelievable all on its own. And even if it was believed to the point she says of when the gun went off by accident, what she did after that still could not be self-defense or 2nd degree. The autopsy photos are all you need to prove that. There's no way the jury acquits. Zero chance. Odds are it will be conviction of murder 1. The best she can hope for is a mistrial and in time a life sentence.

I think one of the best arguments that the knife came first is JA's insistence that the gun came first.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I think one of the best arguments that the knife came first is JA's insistence that the gun came first.

I believe her version is totally defense strategy. For self defense, she had to say something about it, and so she chose to admit to the very least she could. She didn't even admit to pulling the trigger intentionally. Heck, she even tried to deny that she ever gripped the knife. Nothing is ever her fault. Detailing what happened during the stabbings would be impossible without admitting it was not self-defense. Even she couldn't spin a story for how the throat cut was self defense. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she told Nurmi she wanted to say that Travis fell on the knife 29 times, she only held the knife when she pulled it out of him, and Nurmi talked her out of it.

 

[danzn16]

I'd say way less than an hour. He would have been hemorrhaging massively from the SVC. The pericardial sac was also hit which leads to cardiac tamponade, in which it fills with blood and restricts the heart from beating and perfusing adequately, ultimately cardiac arrest. This injury would not have let him last for an hour.
Regarding the GSW, I have read several articles that state low velocity, small caliber GSW to the frontal lobe may not even render the victim unconscious in some cases and that outcomes are more favorable with this type of injury. I read an article about a suicidal woman with chronic psychiatric problems who shot herself with a small caliber gun to the temple. The bullet passed thru both frontal lobes and terminated in the second frontal lobe hit. She did not seek medical attention. The bullet was discovered 2 years later during an CT for her constant headaches. She was fine. The article stated that she didn't even have personality changes. Now this is an extremely unusual case, but it happened.

Wow that is one lucky lady. I linked to an article previously in this thread about woman that shot herself in the frontal lobes and she was in a coma for months and had to go through extensive therapy and she still has issues.

 

[danzn16]

I'm not disputing it would take longer. I'm disputing the idea that there was only one fatal wound.

Oh I know. I just quoted your post and commented below because your post was correct and it was in dispute with another poster.

 

[danzn16]

The ME also said this:

Originally Posted by StephanieHartPI
Defense: And do you remember telling Detective Flores that you knew this because the gunshot wound would not have completely incapacitated somebody

ME: I don't recall saying that either

Defense: Is that something you think you would have never said to Detective Flores?

ME: I think I've said it here in court that I don't think it would immediately incapacitate him or kill him. But it would be a serious injury, but I don't recall telling Detective Flores that, no.

Defense: Ok, so, let me back up for a second, so you are saying the gunshot wound is not immediately incapacitating?

ME: I would say not immediately fatal

Defense: I'm not talking about fatal, I'm just talking about incapacitating

ME: I think...yes, it would be incapacitating, passing through his brain, so yes

Defense: So...and that's assuming it was passing through his brain, you would say it is incapacitating.

ME: I'm saying it did pass through his brain

Thus, although the ME said that the bullet passed through TA's brain and the gunshot wound was a "serious injury," he also said "it would not immediately incapacitate or kill him." That's a direct quote from the ME.

Also, when asked if the bullet passing through his brain was incapacitating, the ME answered "I'm saying it did pass through his brain," not "Yes."

These and other parts of the ME's testimony demonstrate that the ME has not ruled out the gunshot first possibility.

And the very next few sentences right under what you are talking about when they asked him to elaborate on what he meant he says that yes it is incapacitating.

ME: I would say not immediately fatal

Defense: I'm not talking about fatal, I'm just talking about incapacitating

ME: I think...yes, it would be incapacitating, passing through his brain, so yes

You're also excluding the other entire half of his testimony when he said it was incapacitating and fatal.

 

[danzn16]

In looking at the picture of the camera, it is even more improbable to me that the camera could've landed upside down on the floor and balanced on its top in such a perfect orientation as to capture that photo. It should be easy to prove whether the photo was on the ground or not by the angle at which the photo was snapped. Just rest the camera on its top edge and snap a test photo. Then compare the angle of the test photo to the two bleeding shots.

I really don't think the angles will match or even that the angles will be the same between the last two photos.

The only thing that makes sense to me is JA was still holding the camera in her right hand. Remember, we know she still had the camera in her right hand just 62 seconds before the first bleeding photo was taken (see the bathroom ceiling photo). Also, if that is JA's right leg in the picture, what could possibly have triggered the camera to take the last two photos?

I wonder if it's possible that that's JA's left leg in the first bleeding photo and that JA triggered the photo with her own right hand.

Note that if JA is still holding the camera, JA could not have been holding two weapons at any point in the 62 seconds between the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo.

Are you saying that JA did a back bend to take a picture behind her foot? :waitasec: