KC Borrow's CA's Car

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There are a lot of him being out in that area real late.
 
Anyone from the local area that can help me with some tolls?
 
Coley said:
I wonder why on July 28th GA stays in the Boggy creek area for an hour at night?
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Maybe we should start a new thread for this. I dont know how otherwise I would.We might have alot of fun with this one...Although we do have a ping thread for these dates.Maybe the thread could be Boggy Creek Area,is there one already?
 
SNIP:
BeanE said:
After Cindy and George brought the car home, Cindy claims on the new FBI tapes to have gone looking for Casey for a couple of hours. She gives no other detail, and quickly moves on with what she's saying.
It is haunting me.
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BeanE & Bond, HELP ME OUT HERE, Please!!! CINDY DID GIVE MORE (AND NEW) INFORMATION ABOUT THE DAY THEY BROUGHT THE PONTIAC HOME FROM THE TOW YARD:

On FBI Tape 10, Cindy said "I actually went back to work for an hour or two." (after telling George to go to work). ​

If Cindy is telling a "mistruth" then she had a couple hours home alone with that car with George gone.

Have you turned up any tolltag docs to verify she actually did go back to work that day? This seems really important to me.

Sorry to holler at you like this, but you two seem to understand tolltags.
 
Friday said:
SNIP:

BeanE & Bond, HELP ME OUT HERE, Please!!! CINDY DID GIVE MORE (AND NEW) INFORMATION ABOUT THE DAY THEY BROUGHT THE PONTIAC HOME FROM THE TOW YARD:

On FBI Tape 10, Cindy said "I actually went back to work for an hour or two." (after telling George to go to work). ​

If Cindy is telling a "mistruth" then she had a couple hours home alone with that car with George gone.

Have you turned up any tolltag docs to verify she actually did go back to work that day? This seems really important to me.

Sorry to holler at you like this, but you two seem to understand tolltags.
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Hi, Friday. Thanks for the heads-up.

Cindy had the opportunity to go back to work for an hour or so in terms of the time they got the Pontiac home until she went to pick up Amy. IIRC, Gentiva is located on the northwest side of town up in the general area of Ricardo & Amy's apartment and Cindy wouldn't hafta go through tolls to get there...which is further supported by few tolls on her 4Runner EPass in general.

Something that doesn't make sense is that IF she did go back to work, why she would hit the Airport toll booth @ 6:17PM on her way to the Mall to pick up Amy. I don't believe she would've needed to hit this toll if she were going directly from Gentiva to the Mall to pick-up Amy.

IF she did go back to work it would certainly be verifiable by co-workers.

Are you certain it isn't just 'mishearing' what Cindy said? I mean "went to look for her" vs. "went back to work" might sound the same if muffled.
 
Here's the call/text traffic between Casey & Cindy's cell on 7/15 FWIW:

Date DOW Time Type From: To: Dur (min)
7/15/08 TUE 12:58:09 PM OUTGOING CALL Casey A. Cindy A. (Cell) 3.6
7/15/08 TUE 1:11:07 PM INCOMING CALL Cindy A. (Cell) Casey A. 1.5
7/15/08 TUE 4:27:41 PM INCOMING TEXT Cindy A. (Cell) Casey A.
7/15/08 TUE 4:44:30 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey A. Cindy A. (Cell)
7/15/08 TUE 4:45:24 PM INCOMING TEXT Cindy A. (Cell) Casey A.
7/15/08 TUE 4:48:17 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey A. Cindy A. (Cell)
 
Lanie said:
I don't think George and/or Cindy know what happened. I don't think they stumbled on Caylee's body, or Casey told them jack.
Our opinions on this differ, I know some people agree with your line of thinking, and some with mine, and not trying to sway you.
I really, really think if Cindy was able to fully and completely realize and understand Casey killed Caylee, and Casey happened to be within reach of her, I think Cindy would kill her dead. That's just the vibe I get from the things I have heard and read. I've just gone over and over all this, and the only conclusion I can personally come to about Cindy and the way she has behaved through most of this is it isn't about protecting Casey, it is about twisting every conceivable thing she can to keep herself from facing Caylee is dead and never coming back.
Baez is not Cindy's attorney, yet he tells her not to question Casey, and she just rolls right over and does what he says. She has a track record on not listening to anyone's advice, including her own attorney's, so why would BAEZ carry any weight with her? She didn't question Casey because she does not want to know, she doesn't want anything to jeopardize her belief Caylee is alive.
If she truly wanted to protect Casey, she would have gotten the truth out of her, and then she would be dictating the terms to Baez of how to get this explained away. She would be working with George and Lee to get their stories straight.
I could go on and on, but this is just my opinion, and I have to go to bed :rolleyes:.
Lanie
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Lanie, I completely agreed with you until the hair brush email. If the hair brush email is proven to be true, then I will change my mind to believe that CA realized at some point that KC killed Caylee and is now trying to save KC from the death penalty.
 
Lanie said:
But there is back up testimony Cindy and Caylee were at the nursing home on Father's Day. People remember seeing them, they were signed it, they went to Cindy's mom's house for dinner when they left there, even on the video you can see a Father's Day card on the table. I'm not buying into that big of a conspiracy.
Lanie
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I have to say I still question it myself. Casey knew about film, cameras, video, I'll bet Lee does too. Also, the lady from the nursing home IIRC couldn't recall exactly what time of day they were there that day, and yes I'm sure she would have remembered Caylee singing so sweet that would be hard to forget but the grandfathers birthday is in there somewhere too I think (wish I could prove using the ms access but its prob long gone by now )and in that environment she could have easily been mistaken and used the sign in sheet as her actual record which even LE made comment to Mrs. P, that she often was the first one there and often started a new page before the staff, so this could have been altered imho again IIRC because they have GF b-day, Cindy's bday,Fathers day, and then Caylee's b-day all lumped in together the year before with a lot of drama going on then too because of the family problems, I hope I'm still making sense its late, and there are a lot of references here but those who have been reading since the beginning will remember seeing this same info. Wondering if the sign in sheet book is a three ring binder that can be changed or if it is a spiral that could not be altered as far as removing and adding sheets???
 
wings said:
I have to say I still question it myself. Casey knew about film, cameras, video, I'll bet Lee does too. Also, the lady from the nursing home IIRC couldn't recall exactly what time of day they were there that day, and yes I'm sure she would have remembered Caylee singing so sweet that would be hard to forget but the grandfathers birthday is in there somewhere too I think (wish I could prove using the ms access but its prob long gone by now )and in that environment she could have easily been mistaken and used the sign in sheet as her actual record which even LE made comment to Mrs. P, that she often was the first one there and often started a new page before the staff, so this could have been altered imho again IIRC because they have GF b-day, Cindy's bday,Fathers day, and then Caylee's b-day all lumped in together the year before with a lot of drama going on then too because of the family problems, I hope I'm still making sense its late, and there are a lot of references here but those who have been reading since the beginning will remember seeing this same info. Wondering if the sign in sheet book is a three ring binder that can be changed or if it is a spiral that could not be altered as far as removing and adding sheets???
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The log in book at my mom's nursing home is a three-ring binder.
 
BondJamesBond said:
Hi, Friday. Thanks for the heads-up.

Something that doesn't make sense is that IF she did go back to work, why she would hit the Airport toll booth @ 6:17PM on her way to the Mall to pick up Amy. I don't believe she would've needed to hit this toll if she were going directly from Gentiva to the Mall to pick-up Amy.

IF she did go back to work it would certainly be verifiable by co-workers.

Are you certain it isn't just 'mishearing' what Cindy said? I mean "went to look for her" vs. "went back to work" might sound the same if muffled.
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There is no chance I'm mistaken. None. She talks about how George thought he should stay home, but she insisted he go to work, and then she adds, "I actually went back to work for an hour or two." She was speaking clearly and plainly, (believe it or not :)).
 
Friday said:
There is no chance I'm mistaken. None. She talks about how George thought he should stay home, but she insisted he go to work, and then she adds, "I actually went back to work for an hour or two." She was speaking clearly and plainly, (believe it or not :)).
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And it was another one of those awkward body touching incidents. I recall this very clearly. My thought was "It's always those muttered comments tucked behind something else that you have to pay attention to." and this was one of them that hit me.
 
I have been thinking….
Two things about the A's going back to work on July 15.
If they were going to be home why take the battery out of the car so it could not be taken?
Someone at both Cindy's and George’s work would be able to verify if they came back to work or not.

The main question is did someone clean the trunk out because they only found one hair in the trunk.

The car was not taken right away by LE on July 15 but was towed on the July 16th. I do not recall if there is any documentation to when that took place. We do know that Johnson’s was called to come and pick up the car from the A’s home. Johnson’s is one of the designated towing company’s that do contract work for OCSO.

What initiated the car being towed at that point?
Apparently GA told LE about the garbage in the back of the trunk because it was retrieved from the tow yard the night of July 16 as per Simone B. statement in his interview. The question is when did GA impart this information to LE.

Casey was arrested about 5:00PM on July 16 and up until that time LE was still treating this case as strictly a kidnapping. The car was not an issue.

I would think that had GA said anything to LE about the smell in the car he would have done so the night of July15 and the car trunk would have been sealed and the car taken a lot sooner than 24 hours later. Since the bag of garbage was not retrieved from the tow yard until later on night of July 16th I would have to assume that nothing was said. So to me that means that the car was not an issue the night of July 15 or even the early morning hours of July 16 and not really paid attention to by LE at all until it was towed later in the day on July 16th and the bag was retrieved from the yard.
If this is the case Cindy, George or Lee could have cleaned out the trunk anytime LE left after bringing Casey back from her tour of Orlando with the officers. IIRC that was at approximately 7:00AM and they did not come back to pick her up to take her to Universal until about noon on July 16. If there was no LE still at the home between 7AM and noon that would be a more ideal time to when the car could have been cleaned.


This is all speculation. We would have to go over the reports by LE to see if there is a way to discern when someone from LE was at the A’s home and if there was in fact an opportunity open for the car to be cleaned.

I have to get back to the kitchen.
 
I'm trying to locate the info in today's document dump to post it here. But a few posters have posted that the epass records do not support GA's car chase story. As soon as I spot it I'll post a link. It's gonna be a loooong night.

ETA: I know you all figured that out awhile back. But this is pretty good confirmation of your good work.
 
Friday said:
There is no chance I'm mistaken. None. She talks about how George thought he should stay home, but she insisted he go to work, and then she adds, "I actually went back to work for an hour or two." She was speaking clearly and plainly, (believe it or not :)).
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Perhaps I'm mistaken. Not disputing that she said she went to work. Just saying I recall at the end of when she's telling the agent about having gotten Amy and gone to the apartment to get Casey that she says she 'went lookin' for her for a couple hours earlier' before having gotten Amy. I don't recall her saying anything about George staying home/going to work before saying this, only about going with Amy. I think we're talking about two different parts of the interview.

I will listen again tomorrow and find it, or confirm that she said nothing of the sort and I'm too old to be doing this :)
 
SuziQ said:
Found the epass mention. It's one paragraph with no explanation offered. IMO, LE at that point was looking at around the 24th. I don't think they had or have figured out that it most likely happened on the 29th.

Pdf Pg 49
http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155437.pdf
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Right...LE says that the records don't support George's account of the incident. Do they mean dates/time, or that it was CA's vehicle? If it was AL's vehicle, then the lack of KC toll records makes sense.
 
BondJamesBond said:
Long answer to your short question...

G&C are in right-to-left mode, IMHO. Its all a means to an end. Consider the stakes from their point of view...

They know they've lost Caylee, and anything they do to admit Caylee's dead would only serve to remove the single remaining means they have to distract the press, and, ultimately, plant a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury. They have a single objective now, IMHO. They must continue to pump the sightings out for the defense to be able to go into court and say, "Casey was framed by LE so the state atty can close a high-visiblity, politically important, case they otherwise couldn't solve. They can't find the body. They don't know what happened. They can't prove Caylee died at Casey's hand."

If the defense capitulates to "Caylee's dead", then, the jury will be able to focus solely on who did it. If they focus only on who did it, then, Casey will have no defense on why she didn't come forward on her own immediately, except to say she was convinced by ZFG that Caylee was still alive. Casey will not be able to provide ANY proof of how ZFG convinced her of this...no phone calls, no texts, no witnesses, no prior contact, no handwritten letters, no emails, nothing. With Casey's history of lies well documented, the case stacked on Casey-did-it vs. ZFG-did-it is so overwhelming the defense needs the "Caylee's alive" reasonable doubt card more than desperately.

Soooo...ANYTHING G&C can do to support that the relationship between them & Casey during the 6/15-7/15 period wasn't strained, was normal, was no cause for concern, is their effort to paint Casey as the martyr...putting on her best effort to protect Casey and the family from the horror ZFG threatened. They have no other alternative from their vantage point...anything else is to support Casey's conviction. If G&C paint Casey as being deceptive to them in any way they just play into the truth that LE knows, the prosecution knows and the jury will certainly determine was a result of Casey's motive to hide the crime.

Specific to the chase. Cindy knew immediately that a chase would be counterproductive for the defense and, besides, she knew her 4Runner never went missing, hey, Casey was in Tampa tending to ZFG, or up in Jacksonville with Jeff (she couldn't be at the house borrowing my car or my whole story's busted). Right? Right! Good, end of story...never happened. George, on the other hand, knew he saw Casey from a distance in a dark SUV leaving the house. Perhaps he'd told this story to others besides Cindy and knew it would surface to LE eventually if he didn't tell it. It took George a little longer to get in right-to-left mode...recall he initially broke out on his own to the FBI w/ the chase info...but later in his statements he started indicating that it was common for Casey to borrow Cindy's 4Runner, etc. and eventually, has to force the story to work w/ a non-threatening-Casey-just-borrowed Cindy's car story. Recall how George's gas can story morphed from the witnessed, 'Here are your effin' cans' to the cordial 'I reached in and got them'. George saw enough to convince himself he was chasing Casey...the details (e.g. 4Runner, Panda sticker, Pontiac at the house) were filled in by either by his subconscious, in a conscious effort at some point to fall in line w/ the defense strategy, or some combination of both.

G&C are locked in a lose-lose battle, they know it...and they're playing their hand as they feel they must. Their choice to make.

Poor Caylee :(
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Many thanks to you and also "shadow of my mind" and "JWG".


I have spent some hours trying to reconcile the "Car Chase" data.

It can't be done taking everyone's testimonies as fact because they are mutually exclusive in parts.

I think you have tied it together elegantly.

I'll carry on with the rest of the posts but I don't expect your ouline to be convincingly refuted.
 
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