Kyron Horman's general discussion thread for 2014

[gitana1]

Yes it makes perfect sense. Thanks. I wonder if Kaine's attorney might regret bringing the landscaper into the child custody proceeding at all. I think he's already said in his deposition that Terri told him at the restaurant that Kaine was abusive to her. And Desiree also accused Kaine of abuse and obtained a restraining order.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html

What hasn’t been made public is the fact that, a month after filing for divorce, Young sought a restraining order against Kaine Horman, Kyron’s dad.

At the time, she had a 7-year-old son from a previous marriage. In court documents, Young said she feared Kaine Horman would “remove our children from their residence.”

The landscaper's possible testimony will not hurt Kaine. Most people who try to take out hits on their spouses allege abuse. Terri is never getting physical custody of the child, K.

A Judge did issue a restraining order. I think most would consider emotional fear as a form of abuse.

I think you mean "emotional abuse", right? Because "Emotional fear" is not a form of abuse. Fear is an emotion. Abuse is an action.

If you mean emotional abuse, unless that abuse involves threats to harm or harassment, it will not merit a restraining order. Instead, the way to resolve it is getting away from the person and getting therapy. Restraining orders are used to prevent very specific behavior. Being mean does not qualify unless there is more.

Also, there is nothing to suggest that a domestic violence restraining order was ever issued against Kaine.

It was a restraining order to prevent him from taking Kyron. In fact, the court eventually restricted both of them from removing Kyron from the other's care.

While I do remember allegations from Desiree about Kaine's conduct, the restraining order, as far as I can tell, had nothing to do with alleged abuse. It was simply to prevent him from taking Kyron from her, and the same strictures were applied to her as well.

Yup. Restraining orders preventing a spouse from taking a child out of state or the county are common and have nothing to do with domestic violence, usually.

In California, those kinds of restraining orders are automatic. It has to do with jurisdictional issues. For example, if Desiree wanted a divorce and Kaine got wind of it, perhaps he would want to move out of state near relatives and battle a divorce there, where it would be easier for him. (This kind of thing happens all the time).

Thus, this type of restraining order is sought to prevent that kind of thing.

 

[MyBelle]

The landscaper's possible testimony will not hurt Kaine. Most people who try to take out hits on their spouses allege abuse. Terri is never getting physical custody of the child, K.



I think you mean "emotional abuse", right? Because "Emotional fear" is not a form of abuse. Fear is an emotion. Abuse is an action.

If you mean emotional abuse, unless that abuse involves threats to harm or harassment, it will not merit a restraining order. Instead, the way to resolve it is getting away from the person and getting therapy. Restraining orders are used to prevent very specific behavior. Being mean does not qualify unless there is more.

Also, there is nothing to suggest that a domestic violence restraining order was ever issued against Kaine.



Yup. Restraining orders preventing a spouse from taking a child out of state or the county are common and have nothing to do with domestic violence, usually.

In California, those kinds of restraining orders are automatic. It has to do with jurisdictional issues. For example, if Desiree wanted a divorce and Kaine got wind of it, perhaps he would want to move out of state near relatives and battle a divorce there, where it would be easier for him. (This kind of thing happens all the time).

Thus, this type of restraining order is sought to prevent that kind of thing.

Emotional Abuse

Emotional abuse is a form of assault that is deliberate and manipulative and used as a method of control. The abuser uses intimidation, fear, guilt, and/or threats to frighten and belittle the victim. In intimate relationships, emotional abuse often results in one partner feeling ashamed, afraid, and isolated from friends and family

http://www.goodtherapy.org/therapy-for-emotional-abuse.html#

A member of my family had no difficult obtaining a restraining order because she feared her spouse would take her children so we'll have to disagree that fear is not a form of abuse.

JMO

 

[AnaTeresa]

MyBelle, respectfully, gitana is a family law attorney. She really knows her stuff. Perhaps you are mistaken about the occurrences in your family member's case, as you're hearing it second, or perhaps even third hand.

 

[MyBelle]

MyBelle, respectfully, gitana is a family law attorney. She really knows her stuff. Perhaps you are mistaken about the occurrences in your family member's case, as you're hearing it second, or perhaps even third hand.

I'm not mistaken as to my family member's case. She obtained her protection order with the help of a YWCA abuse counselor who explained emotional abuse is just as damaging to children as physical abuse. I attended the meeting. When children are in a household, the court must act in the best interest of the child. I understand the court might have a different interpretation if children aren't part of the household equation but I do believe Desiree obtained the restraining order when Kyron lived with her. It's not often easy for women to "stay away" from her abuser if he's living in the same household.

 

[gitana1]

Emotional Abuse

Emotional abuse is a form of assault that is deliberate and manipulative and used as a method of control. The abuser uses intimidation, fear, guilt, and/or threats to frighten and belittle the victim. In intimate relationships, emotional abuse often results in one partner feeling ashamed, afraid, and isolated from friends and family

http://www.goodtherapy.org/therapy-for-emotional-abuse.html#

A member of my family had no difficult obtaining a restraining order because she feared her spouse would take her children so we'll have to disagree that fear is not a form of abuse.

JMO

Fear is an emotion. Fear is not a verb. It is not abuse. Abuse can cause fear but the fear itself is not abuse.

Yes, emotional abuse is abuse. In fact, I think it is more damaging than physical abuse to kids. But emotional abuse is not assault. That is not the legal definition of assault. Also, and again, unless the emotional abuse includes threats or on-going harassment, it will not merit a domestic violence restraining order.

It appears you believe that all restraining orders are linked with abuse. That is simply untrue. Preventing a parent from taking one's kids is a different restraining order from the type that keeps a person away from another, due to abuse. That's the law.

That doesn't mean your sister wasn't abused. But you have to understand that in many states, retraining orders preventing a parent from taking the kids out of state, are automatic and in the rest of the states, very easy to obtain. While someone who needs such an order may have been abused, the existence of such an order simply does not evidence abuse. Not even close.

 

[MyBelle]

Fear is an emotion. Fear is not a verb. It is not abuse. Abuse can cause fear but the fear itself is not abuse.

Yes, emotional abuse is abuse. In fact, I think it is more damaging than physical abuse to kids. But emotional abuse is not assault. That is not the legal definition of assault. Also, and again, unless the emotional abuse includes threats or on-going harassment, it will not merit a domestic violence restraining order.

It appears you believe that all restraining orders are linked with abuse. That is simply untrue. Preventing a parent from taking one's kids is a different restraining order from the type that keeps a person away from another, due to abuse. That's the law.

That doesn't mean your sister wasn't abused. But you have to understand that in many states, retraining orders preventing a parent from taking the kids out of state, are automatic and in the rest of the states, very easy to obtain. While someone who needs such an order may have been abused, the existence of such an order simply does not evidence abuse. Not even close.

I never said I believe all restraining orders are linked to abuse nor did I imply it. I cited a link. I never mentioned my sister.

I have no idea whether Desiree Young cited a link to support her claim that she feared her child would be removed from her care by the respondent but it seemed to be a real fear to me.

The fact remains, a Judge sided with Desiree Young.

Emotional abuse is a form of assault. I'm shocked you dispute it.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm

 

[gitana1]

I never said I believe all restraining orders are linked to abuse nor did I imply it. I cited a link. I never mentioned my sister.

I have no idea whether Desiree Young cited a link to support her claim that she feared her child would be removed from her care by the respondent but it seemed to be a real fear to me.

The fact remains, a Judge sided with Desiree Young.

Emotional abuse is a form of assault. I'm shocked you dispute it.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm

Well, I'm an attorney. So I deal with fact and law. Not how people feel. And you may feel that emotional abuse is assault but fact and law state otherwise.

Once again, emotional abuse is not assault unless it specifically includes a threat of harm.

Let me see if I can explain it this way: Assault is a crime. It is best understood as attempted battery. So, someone coming at you with a raised fist, or grabbing your skirt, or getting in your face and screaming they are going to strangle you, those are likely examples of assault. There is no statute or criminal code section anywhere in the country that defines assault as "emotional abuse" even though the act of assault is emotionally abusive, generally. Does that make sense?

So, someone constantly telling their wife that she is ugly and worthless and cannot survive on her own, is emotionally abusive but not guilty of assault. Someone who tells his wife while raising a fist in her face that he's going to kill her, is arguably being emotionally abusive and is also committing an assault.

Please understand that I litigate domestic violence cases regularly (I'm litigating one now). I'm throughly versed on all forms of abuse and crimes such as assault, battery and stalking. It's my job.

Finally, it appears clear that you brought up the restraining order to insinuate that Kaine was abusive and you have been arguing that point steadily since. As to not mentioning your sister, I meant your family member.

 

[nosysw]

I thought Kaine was considered a victim(?) So, why are we discussing if he's an 'abuser', or not?

 

[MyBelle]

Well, I'm an attorney. So I deal with fact and law. Not how people feel. And you may feel that emotional abuse is assault but fact and law state otherwise.

Once again, emotional abuse is not assault unless it specifically includes a threat of harm.

Let me see if I can explain it this way: Assault is a crime. It is best understood as attempted battery. So, someone coming at you with a raised fist, or grabbing your skirt, or getting in your face and screaming they are going to strangle you, those are likely examples of assault. There is no statute or criminal code section anywhere in the country that defines assault as "emotional abuse" even though the act of assault is emotionally abusive, generally. Does that make sense?

So, someone constantly telling their wife that she is ugly and worthless and cannot survive on her own, is emotionally abusive but not guilty of assault. Someone who tells his wife while raising a fist in her face that he's going to kill her, is arguably being emotionally abusive and is also committing an assault.

Please understand that I litigate domestic violence cases regularly (I'm litigating one now). I'm throughly versed on all forms of abuse and crimes such as assault, battery and stalking. It's my job.

Finally, it appears clear that you brought up the restraining order to insinuate that Kaine was abusive and you have been arguing that point steadily since. As to not mentioning your sister, I meant your family member.

I brought up the restraining order because Desiree obtained it, it is a matter of public record and the news media has mentioned it several times.
I don't know if her husband was physically abusive to her nor did I suggest he was. Desiree was able to persuade a Judge her fear about her children had a real basis in fact and he granted her request. Her goal was to protect her children.

I made no mention of domestic violence nor that Kaine Horman is guilty of domestic violence. I wasn't present in Desiree's marriage. Oregon's law is called "The Family Abuse Protection Act" and it does address emotional abuse. The entire point of a restraining order is to PREVENT the escalation to physical violence. Desiree had two children to worry about and her request was granted.

I wasn't aware I'm not allowed to discuss something that was first published nearly four years ago in response to a media article that portrayed the family as a “close, supportive group.”

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html

But a WW review of dozens of court documents paints a very different portrait. These documents reveal a family that has at times been divided by rocky divorce, suspicion and—in the case of one uncle—sex abuse.

 

[gitana1]

I brought up the restraining order because Desiree obtained it, it is a matter of public record and the news media has mentioned it several times.
I don't know if her husband was physically abusive to her nor did I suggest he was. Desiree was able to persuade a Judge her fear about her children had a real basis in fact and he granted her request. Her goal was to protect her children.

I made no mention of domestic violence nor that Kaine Horman is guilty of domestic violence. I wasn't present in Desiree's marriage. Oregon's law is called "The Family Abuse Protection Act" and it does address emotional abuse. The entire point of a restraining order is to PREVENT the escalation to physical violence. Desiree had two children to worry about and her request was granted.

I wasn't aware I'm not allowed to discuss something that was first published nearly four years ago in response to a media article that portrayed the family as a “close, supportive group.”

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html

But a WW review of dozens of court documents paints a very different portrait. These documents reveal a family that has at times been divided by rocky divorce, suspicion and—in the case of one uncle—sex abuse.

BBM.

Please see below:

Yes it makes perfect sense. Thanks. I wonder if Kaine's attorney might regret bringing the landscaper into the child custody proceeding at all. I think he's already said in his deposition that Terri told him at the restaurant that Kaine was abusive to her. And Desiree also accused Kaine of abuse and obtained a restraining order.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html

What hasn’t been made public is the fact that, a month after filing for divorce, Young sought a restraining order against Kaine Horman, Kyron’s dad.

At the time, she had a 7-year-old son from a previous marriage. In court documents, Young said she feared Kaine Horman would “remove our children from their residence.”

BBM.

Once again: The restraining order has nothing to do with abuse as you have insinuated. It is not a domestic violence restraining order that she obtained via the Family Abuse Prevention Act as you state, which one can only get when abused and in order to keep the other person away from them or their children:

WHAT IS A RESTRAINING ORDER?
A restraining order is a court order that tells the person who hurt you (the respondent) to leave you and your children alone. It can tell the respondent to move from your home and can deal with temporary custody and parenting time of your children. You can ask the judge to add other orders (listed in the restraining order papers) that you think will help you stay safe. You also can ask the court to include an order that says the respondent cannot have guns. A restraining order can deal with custody and parenting time issues only temporarily. To get “permanent” custody and parenting time orders, you will need to a file a family law case, such as a divorce or a custody case.
WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR GETTING A RESTRAINING ORDER?
3.
Abuse
In the last 180 days*, the person who abused you must have:
•
physically injured you or
•
tried to physically injure you or
•
made you afraid that he or she was about to physically injure you or
•
made you have sexual relations against your wishes by using force or threats of force
(*Any time period when the person who abused you was in jail or lived more than 100 miles from your home does not count as part of the 180 day period. This means you may still be able to get a restraining order even if it has been more than 180 days since you were abused.)
4.
Ongoing
Danger
You are in danger of more abuse very soon, and the person who abused you is a threat to the physical safety of you or your children.
NOTE: A judge cannot give you a restraining order solely for threats to take your children, rude behavior, verbal or emotional abuse, or damaged property unless you were in fear that you were about to be physically injured. http://courts.oregon.gov/OJD/OSCA/cpsd/courtimprovement/familylaw/pages/fapaforms.aspx

Instead, what Desiree obtained is a TPOR, totally different from a restraining order due to abuse:

While a divorce case is pending, parents can also apply for a temporary order that maintains the child's current situation and prevents either parent from removing children from their current situation. These orders are called "temporary protective order of restraint" (TPOR) either for "temporary emergency custody" or a "status quo" order. Also, while a case is pending, either party can ask the court for pendente lite orders (limited orders while the larger case is pending) concerning temporary custody, parenting time, support, where the child should be enrolled in school, etc., or related orders.http://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1133_childcustody.htm

BBM.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM.

Please see below:



BBM.

Once again: The restraining order has nothing to do with abuse as you have insinuated. It is not a domestic violence restraining order that she obtained via the Family Abuse Prevention Act as you state, which one can only get when abused and in order to keep the other person away from them or their children: Instead, what Desiree obtained is a TPOR, totally different from a restraining order due to abuse: BBM.

For the upteenth time, I never said Desiree obtained an order of protection because Kaine was physically abusive to her or the children. The protection order was for protection of both her children. Abuse can be emotional, physical or both and protection for the children would be needed. The Judge agreed with Desiree. I'm pretty sure that's why a temporary PROTECTION order of restraint has that word in its title. You seem oblivious to the fact that removing children from the care of their primary caregiver can emotionally traumatize them or you simply don't care.

The order was signed by a Judge. It was reported in the media. I have never said it was a domestic violence restraining order. I have never said Kaine Horman was physically violent to his wife or children. I have never said Terri told the landscaper Kaine was physically abusive to her. So please stop misrepresenting my posts. Thank you.

 

[ami]

For the upteenth time, I never said Desiree obtained an order of protection because Kaine was physically abusive to her or the children. The protection order was for protection of both her children. Abuse can be emotional, physical or both and protection for the children would be needed. The Judge agreed with Desiree. I'm pretty sure that's why a temporary PROTECTION order of restraint has that word in its title. You seem oblivious to the fact that removing children from the care of their primary caregiver can emotionally traumatize them or you simply don't care.

The order was signed by a Judge. It was reported in the media. I have never said it was a domestic violence restraining order. I have never said Kaine Horman was physically violent to his wife or children. I have never said Terri told the landscaper Kaine was physically abusive to her. So please stop misrepresenting my posts. Thank you.

You clearly wrote out that Desiree "accused Kaine of abuse" and that "the judge agreed with Desiree" (your words) - which is a misrepresentation that Gitana has repeatedly corrected. Kaine was awarded custody of his children. So what the judge has agreed to is that Kaine should be the custodial parent of his children. Now Kaine and Desiree (and Kyron) are all victims of the same person, and that person is not Kaine or Desiree.

In other news, every spring I hope something will be discovered in the thaw. I hope that so hard for this spring as well.

 

[MyBelle]

You clearly wrote out that Desiree "accused Kaine of abuse" and that "the judge agreed with Desiree" (your words) - which is a misrepresentation that Gitana has repeatedly corrected. Kaine was awarded custody of his children. So what the judge has agreed to is that Kaine should be the custodial parent of his children. Now Kaine and Desiree (and Kyron) are all victims of the same person, and that person is not Kaine or Desiree.

In other news, every spring I hope something will be discovered in the thaw. I hope that so hard for this spring as well.

The custody hearing on Kiara is upcoming in June. I never used the term "physical abuse" or suggested domestic violence so stop misrepresenting that I did so. The protection order obtained by Desiree is a matter of public record. "Abuse" can be either physical or emotional or both.

Desiree obtained an order of protection on behalf of her children. She feared her husband intended to take them from her. Removal of children from their primary caregiver can cause serious emotional harm with long-lasting results. Desiree prevented their removal. The Judge agreed with her. The court hearing on Kiara's custody is in June.

http://www.practicenotes.org/vol2_no4/effects_of_separation_and_attachment.htm

In her 1982 article on parent-child attachment, published in the journal Social Casework, Peg Hess states that three conditions must be present for optimal parent-child attachment to occur: continuity, stability, and mutuality. Continuity involves the caregiver's constancy and repetition of the parent-child interactions. Stability requires a safe environment where the parent and child can engage in the bonding process. Mutuality refers to the interactions between the parent and child that reinforce their importance to each other.

 

[human]

thank you Gitana. Your explanation makes perfect sense.

 

[gitana1]

thank you Gitana. Your explanation makes perfect sense.

I'm glad to hear that. But I am always working on my ability to communicate and explain. It's a necessity in my business! And I know I can improve.

 

[gwenabob]

I'm glad to hear that. But I am always working on my ability to communicate and explain. It's a necessity in my business! And I know I can improve.

Your explanation can only work if the listener is actually listening.

 

[tiredblondy]

Your explanation can only work if the listener is actually listening.

Sooo true!

 

[tiredblondy]

thank you Gitana. Your explanation makes perfect sense.

I have to agree. For me it was very clear. Thanks as always.

 

[trujac]

http://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1133_childcustody.htm

Overview of Temporary Order of Protection Restraint in Oregon--outlines the civil rather than criminal aspects of the order.

 

[Donjeta]

The custody hearing on Kiara is upcoming in June. I never used the term "physical abuse" or suggested domestic violence so stop misrepresenting that I did so. The protection order obtained by Desiree is a matter of public record. "Abuse" can be either physical or emotional or both.

Desiree obtained an order of protection on behalf of her children. She feared her husband intended to take them from her. Removal of children from their primary caregiver can cause serious emotional harm with long-lasting results. Desiree prevented their removal. The Judge agreed with her. The court hearing on Kiara's custody is in June.

http://www.practicenotes.org/vol2_no4/effects_of_separation_and_attachment.htm

In her 1982 article on parent-child attachment, published in the journal Social Casework, Peg Hess states that three conditions must be present for optimal parent-child attachment to occur: continuity, stability, and mutuality. Continuity involves the caregiver's constancy and repetition of the parent-child interactions. Stability requires a safe environment where the parent and child can engage in the bonding process. Mutuality refers to the interactions between the parent and child that reinforce their importance to each other.

I think links to prove that separation from their caregivers may be emotionally harmful for children are rather beside the point as I don't believe anybody is disagreeing with you that removing children from their primary caregiver may cause serious emotional harm.

The point under contention is that the existence of a restraining order is not evidence that Kaine ever even planned to remove Kyron from Desiree or did anything other that could be considered abuse. (Not saying he didn't, but no articles that I've seen said that Desiree claimed either physical or emotional abuse as reason for the restraining order.)

The restraining order prevented both Kaine and Desiree from removing the children from each other so it sounds to me like the decision mostly just preserved the status quo until the custody matters were properly resolved. Sometimes those things are just judicial expediency, it's easy to make a decision that refers the matter to a later hearing and in the meantime nothing is changed.