"Listen Carefully..." New Book About the JBR Case Featuring WS and FFJ Members

[fr brown]

Okay, you have linguistic clues as to who may have written the note. There are always exceptions to rules.

True, but the linguistic analysis, at least the part in question, is trying to build up a profile of the ransom note writer's age, gender and origins; it's not asking the question "Could Patsy Ramsey have written this note?"

We have only a vague idea how the analyst came to the conclusion that southerners are more likely to use "bring" than "take," or how widely held that conclusion is. And there's the issue that at least some of the references readers are given support (though weakly) the RN author being from the Midwest or the North or Louisiana, but not from West Virginia or Georgia because none of the informants from those two states answered 'bring." (That's assuming I understand the DARE entry.)

 

[questfortrue]

Okay, you have linguistic clues as to who may have written the note. There are always exceptions to rules.

IIRC from the chapter on the RN, there are other clues as to region in addition to the ‘bring’ or ‘take’ comment. The tone is Southern genteel, observed in the usage of ‘gentlemen’ vs. men.

(Since I mention genteel, there was once an article regarding children’s impressions of Southern speakers. http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...ccents-Are-Smart-and-In-Charge-Even-for-Kids/ )

As you say BoldBear, there can be exceptions to rules. Here, just for general amusement, I present a Northerner’s instructions:
Sir, if you’re going to London next month, you’d better take a raincoat! I was there in November and it rained cats and dogs.
Take a large attaché for all the money for the kidnappers.

My spoof (with kind intent) on Southern speech vernacular:
Oh honey, if you’re fixin’ to go to London next month, y’all better bring a raincoat! I was there in November, and it was a gutter-washer.
Oh honey, y’all better bring a large attaché for all that money for the kidnappers.

Finally, a music note to conclude.
http://www.simulstream.com/mp3/ransom_letter.mp3

 

[fr brown]

....IIRC from the chapter on the RN, there are other clues as to region in addition to the ‘bring’ or ‘take’ comment. The tone is Southern genteel, observed in the usage of ‘gentlemen’ vs. men....

Since you bring it up, there aren't any sources specified for the observation that southern women are apt to refer to men as "gentlemen," just the assertion that it's common for them to do so. It doesn't appear to be a personal observation so where does it come from?

As it happens, there is some support from DARE. Informants from Alabama, Florida, Missouri and North Carolina responded that they would address a man whose name they did not know as "gentleman," similar to the way most of us would use "sir." That gets you in the ballpark, more or less.

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

(Since I mention genteel, there was once an article regarding children’s impressions of Southern speakers. http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...ccents-Are-Smart-and-In-Charge-Even-for-Kids/ )

After reading your linked article, quest, I realized why I (maybe others as well) chose not to respond to Tricia's request for interviews. Here's the quote that hit the mark:

"It’s one reason why I like blogging and social media: on the Internet, no one knows you’re a hick."
:blushing:


​

(bbm)

My spoof (with kind intent) on Southern speech vernacular:
Oh honey, if you’re fixin’ to go to London next month, y’all better bring a raincoat! I was there in November, and it was a gutter-washer.
Oh honey, y’all better bring a large attaché for all that money for the kidnappers.

BTW, does anyone have any idea why many from the South use the term "fixin' to" do something?

Oh, and another BTW, if you're from the South, it's a "gullywasher." :biggrin:

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

BTW, does anyone have any idea why many from the South use the term "fixin' to" do something?

As a Southerner, I wondered the same thing. Several internet sources state:

This phrase dates to the 14th century, when “fix” meant “to set one’s eye or mind to do something.” The meaning of getting ready to do something is American in origin and was first recorded in the 18th century. The Oxford English Dictionary cited this 1716 example: “He fixes for another expedition.”

Personally I use it jokingly similar to "I recon".

 

[LifeCitizen]

Oh yeah, and they talk about the Ramseys' attempts at creating a "brand" in the media (wholesome devout Christians, a loving normal family) which I thought was a point most books on the case are too polite to state so boldly. So I appreciate that someone finally said it.

Smit helped that along, by praying with the R's and claiming them innocent after 72 hours on the case.

 

[otg]

As a Southerner, I wondered the same thing. Several internet sources state:

This phrase dates to the 14th century, when “fix” meant “to set one’s eye or mind to do something.” The meaning of getting ready to do something is American in origin and was first recorded in the 18th century. The Oxford English Dictionary cited this 1716 example: “He fixes for another expedition.”

Personally I use it jokingly similar to "I recon".

WATN, I reckon :giggle: its use comes from Southerners' desire to be specific. Just as we consider the use of the word "you" confusing if one is addressing a single person or a group. (Old English distinguished between second person singular and plural, but for some reason merged them into the word "you" in Modern English.) So we compensate by adding the word "all" to the end of "you" making it our familiar "y'all."

If you tell a Southerner, "I'm going to the movies," that would be confusing because we know better -- you're standing right there in front of me. So to be more specific, we would want to say that we are not going right now at this moment in time, but will be going later. IOW, we are preparing to go to the movies. But "preparing" to go just sounds so pretentious, so just like we might "fix" dinner (or "prepare" dinner), we are "fixing to go." It serves notice that we will be going soon.

 

[887sMtreme]

I’ve lived in the south all my life and always found PR’s voice to be so phoney. I thought the real Patsy came out by accident when she told that police questioner, “You’re goin’ down the wrong path, buddy” without a trace of southern lady in either her voice or demeanor.

 

[fr brown]

The book says that practice (ransom) notes were found in the trash. I haven't read that before. What's the source for that?

 

[Dragognosis]

Air, the thin type.

 

[Userid]

The book says that practice (ransom) notes were found in the trash. I haven't read that before. What's the source for that?

I've heard this from many sources (television, etc.). If memory serves, detectives who worked on the case admitted this. There was a practice ransom note on the same exact paper from the same exact (PR's) pad that started "Mr. and Mrs. l" -- the "l" was the first written stem of the letter "R". The fact it was discarded and replaced with "Mr. Ramsey" (i.e. not both Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey) says a ton. The writer knew better than to include "Mrs. Ramsey" in the salutation, and went out of the way to modify it to simply addressing "Mr. Ramsey."

 

[UKGuy]

I've heard this from many sources (television, etc.). If memory serves, detectives who worked on the case admitted this. There was a practice ransom note on the same exact paper from the same exact (PR's) pad that started "Mr. and Mrs. l" -- the "l" was the first written stem of the letter "R". The fact it was discarded and replaced with "Mr. Ramsey" (i.e. not both Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey) says a ton. The writer knew better than to include "Mrs. Ramsey" in the salutation, and went out of the way to modify it to simply addressing "Mr. Ramsey."

Userid,
I'm neutral on the RN as its obviously staged. Yet how does the author know who will find and read the RN?

Any thoughts why it began with a formal tone?

.

 

[fr brown]

I've heard this from many sources (television, etc.). If memory serves, detectives who worked on the case admitted this. There was a practice ransom note on the same exact paper from the same exact (PR's) pad that started "Mr. and Mrs. l" -- the "l" was the first written stem of the letter "R". The fact it was discarded and replaced with "Mr. Ramsey" (i.e. not both Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey) says a ton. The writer knew better than to include "Mrs. Ramsey" in the salutation, and went out of the way to modify it to simply addressing "Mr. Ramsey."

From JonBenet by Steve Thomas:

"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing. But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. |), and that page showed evidence of ink bleedthrough from the missing page 25.

Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29. Furthermore, the ink bleedthrough discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been written on page 25 and been discarded. Two possible practice notes and one real one covering three pages led me to believe that the killer had spend more time in the house composing the ransom note than we originally thought. But even more significant, it seemed clear that whoever wrote it was unafraid of being caught in the house. We never found the missing pages."

 

[Userid]

Userid,
I'm neutral on the RN as its obviously staged. Yet how does the author know who will find and read the RN?

Any thoughts why it began with a formal tone?

.

I feel it's a pretty safe assumption that the note-writer believed the police would read the note, and because of that, wrote it for them. When you stage something like this ransom note, you're staging it for the investigators with the purpose of taking attention away for yourself and/or your co-conspirators.

Can't say why a formal tone was used; perhaps it was because she/they wanted to frame it as an "employee" or subordinate of "Mr. Ramsey." Using the salutation (as opposed to "John") suggests an "impersonal" relationship to JR, as in, employee-to-boss. An employee (or anyone not including friends and family) would not be on a first-name basis with his boss, for example.

 

[mickey2942]

I have not read the book yet, but believed John Ramsey was absolutely clueless when he ran for public office. I can't imagine why a sane person did not have a sit down with him on this issue.

 

[UKGuy]

I feel it's a pretty safe assumption that the note-writer believed the police would read the note, and because of that, wrote it for them. When you stage something like this ransom note, you're staging it for the investigators with the purpose of taking attention away for yourself and/or your co-conspirators.

Can't say why a formal tone was used; perhaps it was because she/they wanted to frame it as an "employee" or subordinate of "Mr. Ramsey." Using the salutation (as opposed to "John") suggests an "impersonal" relationship to JR, as in, employee-to-boss. An employee (or anyone not including friends and family) would not be on a first-name basis with his boss, for example.

Userid,
I'm sure you are correct. Yet it reads like an invoice: Dear Mr ... Due the sum of, ... attache case ... etc.

Your analysis on the tone seems spot on, assuming Patsy wrote it and was attempting to portray the subordinate relationship via the formal tone.

Yet it is all redundant as many have pointed out a real RN would have read something like:

We Have Your Daughter and will phone at 10 A.M.

Styling the RN this way, i.e. Formal vs Social suggests the author over engineered it, is this Patsy's *advertiser censored* laude Literature degree showing its influence?

 

[UKGuy]

I have not read the book yet, but believed John Ramsey was absolutely clueless when he ran for public office. I can't imagine why a sane person did not have a sit down with him on this issue.

mickey2942
As John was a Murder Suspect I'll speculate that no sane person wanted to be seen speaking to him.

.

 

[Jaclin]

Okay, you have linguistic clues as to who may have written the note. There are always exceptions to rules.

yes. that's very true. I have always lived in Indiana and I would definitely say, "John is going to TAKE Mary to the dance." Then, at the party, I might ask John if he BROUGHT Mary to the dance, if I didn't see her. A week later, I might tell someone that "John TOOK Mary to the dance". You can TAKE that to the bank. I'm not bringing anything to the bank unless I work there, and it is my lunch. MOO There is plenty of reason for me to suspect who wrote the note based upon physical clues.

 

[fr brown]

yes. that's very true. I have always lived in Indiana and I would definitely say, "John is going to TAKE Mary to the dance." Then, at the party, I might ask John if he BROUGHT Mary to the dance, if I didn't see her. A week later, I might tell someone that "John TOOK Mary to the dance". You can TAKE that to the bank. I'm not bringing anything to the bank unless I work there, and it is my lunch. MOO There is plenty of reason for me to suspect who wrote the note based upon physical clues.

The widespread notion that a speaker chooses between bring or take based on his position at the time of speaking is a simplistic one, but perhaps has some validity. I realize that when I reminded my daughter to bring her ID to the bank, I was mentally positioning myself to meet her there after school. But of course we are free to mentally position ourselves anywhere and anytime in four dimensional spacetime when we're speaking.

I think this freedom probably overrides regional differences in usage.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
I'm sure you are correct. Yet it reads like an invoice: Dear Mr ... Due the sum of, ... attache case ... etc.

Your analysis on the tone seems spot on, assuming Patsy wrote it and was attempting to portray the subordinate relationship via the formal tone.

Yet it is all redundant as many have pointed out a real RN would have read something like:

We Have Your Daughter and will phone at 10 A.M.

Styling the RN this way, i.e. Formal vs Social suggests the author over engineered it, is this Patsy's *advertiser censored* laude Literature degree showing its influence?

Yes, I'd say she did "overdo" it with regards to the note. And yes, her literature degree does come into play here. The length of the note is not only ridiculous, but also this: why in the world would the note writer take the time to separate a ransom note into paragraphs? It's almost like PR purposefully made the note long because she felt a short note would be suspicious, but it backfired completely. She needed to include those precise details (the 118,000, "we respect your business," etc.) because she was trying to frame a very particular story with a very particular suspect. She could never have framed such a particular story with a ransom note that only contained a couple lines.