Logistics Analysis: How to get child's body into a stroller while wrangling a toddler

[akashana]

Maybe it's just me, but I find this scenario most unlikely. Removing a deceased or incapacitated Kyron from the school ups the risk level to what I feel most would feel is too high. All it would take is for a single person to see an overgrown child stuffed into a far too small stroller to blow her cover and she is in deepest doo-doo. I think it far more likely that Kyron left the school of his own volition, albeit under some kind of a ruse.

 

[Jade2010]

Does this exit by stroller theory make anyone else cranky?

 

[Morag]

Does this exit by stroller theory make anyone else cranky?

Perhaps BeanE is just trying to get this idea off the table once and for all?
Done a damn fine job of it, too!

 

[Reverie]

What a great question! And what a great bunch of well thought out responses! I used a double stroller for my first two kids--22 months apart. Older child in front;baby in back. Worked great. However, all in all, it seems too risky to try to do this at the school. IMO, it is more likely that TH was a lookout for an accomplice. She could monitor, say...the unlocked door that led to the back parking lot after handing him off, or while he was supposedly looking at the 'cool electric one'....then walk out.

IMO this act was very premeditated--no room for error of any kind. Had to be clean, perfect.

 

[miabellamoure]

Does this exit by stroller theory make anyone else cranky?

Huh? Why would a theory make a person cranky?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Suppose it's on wheels, with a lid, and she can pull it like a wagon with one hand, while holding the baby in her other arm?

Easier to find an excuse for at the end of the day, back in the school office with Kaine, when the secretary says "But we thought you took him for a doctor's appointment", than having been seen leaving the school with a walking Kyron.

Scenario A (wheeled bin):
Terri: "Oh no, the doctor's appointment is next week. I left him in the hallway walking to his class."
Suspicious Secretary: "Okay. Hey. Btw. A parent saw you leaving with a wheeled bin. What was that for?"
Terri: "Oh nothing. I had just brought that because I was confused and thought I was supposed to tote his tree frog project home with me. I emailed the teacher when I got home to find out when I was actually supposed to pick up the project, but I never heard back from her."
Kaine: "Oh yeah. She got that wheeled bin last week. Nice bin. Protects the diorama and she can lug stuff around while she's wrangling the baby. Now wth did you all do with my son? Where is he?"
(safe. easy peasy. only has to produce the bin from the truck or from home. Kyron's hair etc easily explained - the bin is from their house.)

Scenario B (walking Kyron):
Terri: "ummmm... doctor's appointment? No... I left him in the hallway walking towards his class."
Suspicious Secretary: "Miss Porter said you told her Kyron had a doctor's appointment. And a parent saw you leave with him. Both of you together."
Kaine: "Terri, you said in the car you left him in the hallway walking toward class. What's this about a parent seeing you leave with him? And a doctor's appointment? Wth's going on? Did you leave him in the hallway, or did you take him with you to an appointment? Something's not right here."
Terri: "ummmmm.... well....."
(busted. arrested. game over. because she can't produce live Kyron.)

I realize with Scenario B (walking Kyron) there have been a few posts contending this is no problem, but I haven't seen it explained how Terri gets out of this situation.

IF TMH did it, was it planned or unplanned?

If it was planned, Scenario B is no problem. As they were walking out of the school together, TMH kept an eye out for anyone seeing them. Had anyone seen them, Kyron would have been returned to the school still alive.

It was unlikely that anyone inside the school would notice them walking outside the school because of the science fair; lots of movement, lots of stuff to pay attention to inside the building, no reason for bored kids to be looking out the windows.

If it was unplanned, the easiest explanation would be a little re-arrangement of the timeline. Preferably offered before anyone mentioned seeing TMH and Kyron outside the school.

The hypothetical real timeline was that TMH went into the school with Kyron, took the picture, did some touring, etc, then left the building with Kyron. At some point outside the building, probably right next to the truck, TMH does something that leads to Kyron's accidental death (shakes him, pushes him so that he falls and hits his head, etc).

Hypothetical alibi offered by TMH: "we went into the school and Kyron remembered he'd forgotten his lunch in the truck. We went out to the truck to get his lunch, then came back into the building. We toured the building, I took his picture with his exhibit and I left him walking towards his classroom just before the bell went off. Witnesses? Well, Ms Z the PTA president was standing next to me when I took Kyron's picture. Doctor's appointment? No, no, that was for next week."

Please note that my premeditated scenario for TMH also works for a nonfamily abductor: persuade Kyron to leave school building, keep an eye out, if there are witnesses, send Kyron back to school, no harm done.

 

[BeanE]

If it was planned, Scenario B is no problem. As they were walking out of the school together, TMH kept an eye out for anyone seeing them. Had anyone seen them, Kyron would have been returned to the school still alive.

Sorry, but there are some things I just don't believe. One is this concept I keep seeing here that if I don't see anyone, then no one is there, and no one can see me. I am absolutely 100% confident that that is not true.

 

[Curious Me]

I doubted the stroller theory more on Sunday. Then, on Monday, while shopping I saw all kinds of strollers in the stores for some reason, or I noticed them more. All those parents thought I was admiring their child when all along I was trying to gauge if an unconscious child could be hidden in their stroller. I have to say I did see some bigger strollers that had me wondering. But I think it'd be too risky. This case has definitely gotten to me, huh.

 

[TrY]

I'm late to this thread and haven't gone through all the pages yet, just the first 2, but a jogging stroller or even a double wide jogging stroller would do the trick. I've seen convertible ones that you can use with 2 children that you can use alone or attach to the back of a bicycle. I've noticed them because I figure that when my 65 pound dog gets older and if she develops arthritis that makes it hard for her to walk (she's a lab cross) that I would buy something like a double wide stroller that she could fit in for walks at the park. Those strollers have big all terrain wheels and I see plenty of those at the park I take my dog to.

A jogging stroller, even a double wide one wouldn't look out of place whatsoever at an elementary school. But that is assuming that baby K was with Terri if they really went to the science fair the morning of June 4.

A jogging stroller could also be used to carry the tree frog diorama in and out of the school too.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Sorry, but there are some things I just don't believe. One is this concept I keep seeing here that if I don't see anyone, then no one is there, and no one can see me. I am absolutely 100% confident that that is not true.

I think it depends on context.

The pictures of the school that I've seen show that it is surrounded by large, beautiful trees that were in full foliage that day. I didn't see a single window that was not at least partially obscured by a tree.

Furthermore, the activities inside the school that day were more conducive than usual for everyone's attention to be inside the building, rather than staring out of the windows.

Yes, there would be a certain amount of risk involved but if this were a premeditated crime, the perpetrator was obviously someone who is bold and not risk averse. If this were premeditated, I'd say that the perpetrator took a calculated risk and it did succeed (so far as we know).

On another thread, someone mentioned Ted Bundy's last victim, a 12 year old named Kimberly Leach that he abducted from her school during school hours. That wasn't the only victim he abducted from a school during a school event. He abducted Debra Kent either from inside her school (a teacher placed him inside the school) or from directly outside it during an event that was attended by an estimated 1100 people.

Ted was really an expert at abducting victims from amongst dozens of potential witnesses without being noticed. The instance I found creepiest was his abduction of Georgeann Hawkins.

She disappeared walking down an alley towards the sorority house she lived in. There were other sororities and fraternities on the same alley and there were end of term parties going on at all of them. It was after dark but most of the alley was quite well lit because of the parties. There were just a few dark patches.

Her movements were traced to within 150 feet of her own sorority, when she just vanished, despite the fact that there were hundreds of people partying up and down the alley, with a lot of foot traffic between the various parties.

One second she was there, walking down the alley with lots of other people. Then after a certain point in that alley, no one ever saw her again. She vanished from the midst of hundreds of people.

LE was never able to figure out how it happened; Bundy confessed in detail to Bob Keppel as a ruse to delay/evade the death penalty.

It turns out that he'd parked his VW Bug in that alley earlier that day, in preparation for going hunting. He'd removed the passenger front seat so that he'd have enough room to stash an unconscious/dead victim. He fixed the interior lights so they would not come on when the doors opened and placed a tire iron on the ground underneath the car. When he saw an attractive girl walking down the alley during a temporary lull in the foot traffic up and down the alley, he approached her on crutches to ask for her help. He led her to his car, grabbed the tire iron and used it to knock her out. Then he opened the door, placed her on the floor on the passenger side, covered her with a blanket, got in the car and drove away.

Not one of the thousands of eyewitnesses present that night remembered a light gold VW Bug driving away during the critical period. Not one. Bundy just flicked on his headlights as usual and drove very slowly down the alley because of all the people on foot. He passed 15 different sororities and fraternities all holding parties and literally thousands of people and yet not one single person remembered his car.

There were literally hundreds of witnesses within earshot and thousands total at all the parties on that alley and someone could have come walking past his car at any second. It looks like a fairly risky way to carry out an abduction but when I think it through, it really wasn't all that high risk.

First, it was after dark. Many of Bundy's other victims were abducted in daylight, so light was not a deterrent for him. Darkness was just an added advantage. Second, there were really only a few seconds that were risky: the time between when he rendered Georgeann Hawkins unconscious and placed her body in his car. He had already prepared his car to make placing her in it as easy as possible by removing the passenger front seat. She was standing directly next to the passenger side of his car when he hit her with the tire iron, so there were just a few seconds that he was risking being seen.

Had a witness walked down the alley while he was walking with her (Georgeann Hawkins) to his car, he would have made some excuse and let her go. She probably would never have even realised she was in danger.

If Kyron's disappearance was premeditated, I think it was done by someone easily as bold as Ted Bundy. Someone who was able to figure out risks, how to minimise them and who knew how to act in ways that do not draw the attention of others.

 

[BeanE]

Serial killers are internally compelled to kill. That is why they are willing to take risks. They must kill.

There is no comparison to Terri, particularly using Bundy, if indeed she was the perp. It's apples to oranges.

I've studied those pictures too. Simply walking Kyron out and to the car leaves numerous opportunities to be seen. It only takes one person, and it's game over.