Low copy number (LCN) DNA = Ramsey's far from cleared

[BBB167893]

And since we are speaking of prior molestation, I mentioned to my son that John's daughter had died in a car accident and he was devastated and my son said "well then I can see where he would be a suspect in a molesting JB". He had lost his daughter, which was devastating; Patsy was very ill and JB is the new daughter in his life.

I am not saying it happened, but it could very easily have happened within those circumstances. Very easily.

Yes, I was getting to that.

 

[DeeDee249]

One of the most frustrating comments I read on these forums is "there is no history". There is a FIRST TIME for everyone who had a history. Every serial killer had a first victim in the series. Every pedophile had a first victim. Everyone who ever beat a spouse or child gave that first slap or shove.
If you get caught (or kill your victim) on that FIRST TIME- well, there won't BE a history, will there?

 

[JMO8778]

I agree. I don't think Mary Lacy ever wanted this case solved. Let me rephrase that: I think solving it took a backseat to helping out her friends.

..the political crony thing going on,yes...

Uh-huh. And just what misinformation would that be on Conservapedia, JMO? (Actually, I have to thank you. I never would have found that site if not for you!)

you're welcome.I just meant in general.IMO the creation article is a particularly good one.there is just sooo much biased misinformation out there in regards to it.nice to read something straightforward for a change.

 

[JMO8778]

just trying to think of a source of non ramsey dna within the Ramseys home that might have transfered the dna.

I keep waving a flag on this one...I think the dna came from the paintbrush handle,and that is evidenced by the splinter that was found inside of JB,which was thought to have come from the paintbrush.
So a gloved person who touched the brush when JB was defiled with it also got that same dna on their gloved hands,which in turn touched the LJ's.it also explains why the dna was found in the blood on her underwear..it was already on the brush to begin with.
Thomas said Patsy took an art class at the local college,and IMO a likely source would be an instructor or fellow student;perhaps someone briefly borrowed her brush.

 

[JMO8778]

full of misinformation (just as Conservapedia is);

ewww ... kinda icky place ... eww

LOL,well,as far as wikipedia goes (no wonder it's also dubbed wickedpedia sometimes),IMO there are things on there make National Geo look like the bible! It's rather disheartening to think that kids can readily see some of the things on there.ohh,but listed under the guise of an internet encyclopedia,it appears almost anything gets a pass.sort of like nude paintings and statues as works of art,or hippies getting away with being naked and smoking pot.just slip it into the right category and anything goes..

 

[Roy23]

Dave,

I just hope we find out the truth and I will hand it to you if you are right. Of course, I actually believe that now we might actually find the truth. I would imagine that you think the case is way off track.

Do you know or not if this case is being worked or not? I would be disappointed if it was all stuck on a Codis hit.

 

[BBB167893]

Dave,

I just hope we find out the truth and I will hand it to you if you are right.

Hey, I'm not looking for congradulations or anything like that. I'm out to find the truth, same as you. And if you turn out to be right, the first round is on me.

Of course, I actually believe that now we might actually find the truth.

You've made that quite clear.

I would imagine that you think the case is way off track.

Roy, "way off-track" does not begin to cover it. I won't go into it unless you ask me for specifics, but let's just say that if I told you half of the reasons why, you'd probably flip. It's a loooong list. The "Bush-Putin" comparison is just the tip of the iceberg.

Do you know or not if this case is being worked or not?

Hard to say, what with Lacy leaving office in two months. I know for the longest time it wasn't being worked, except by one or two people, if that. Almost no money was spent on the investigation by the DA's office in the first 2-1/2 years. The "investigators" she put together were more-or-less window-dressing, if they could stay on for more than a week. (Ask Jim Kolar if you don't believe me.) So I have strong doubts, to say the least.

I would be disappointed if it was all stuck on a Codis hit.

Then I suggest you prepare to be disappointed. That's not a joke, either.

 

[Tadpole12]

No, I don't believe in the prior sexual abuse. And I especially don't see any evidence of past history of a Ramsey male being a sexual predator. As far as DNA transference, you have skin cells and a liquid in her panties. Of course the technology did not exist at the time to test for this(skin cells). If all this DNA were of this type, I would understand the skepticism.

cool. I understand.

*This combined with the liquid makes a pretty strong case against an innocent transference or planting. **I think it is possible as well that had LE done their job properly from the beginning that maybe they would even have more evidence that they trusted. [/qoute]



*not really if it's a false positive ie the result of contamination or the trace dna was an archive.
**that's a definite

***I am not familiar with the "Insect Dynamic" if you care to share. And I have read nothing that even makes it likely that Patsy wrote that note. I really don't like to go into farfetched theories but it could be possible that someone who did this was not only familiar with John's bonus but also the writing styles of Patsy. I hate writing that by the way. As I said, I believe the DNA at least proves that the Ramsey's did not perform an act of killing. It is really hard to argue against it if you understand the science.

*** see SuperDavepedia..... *smile

also ....Roy.... I've read very little re Linda Arndt obersavations: specific behaviour by JR or her specific observations that day re "Incest Dynamic"
....and ... as she tells it ...it all clicked, the Ramseys reaction and behaviour, when LA obseved JR carrying JBR's body.

Linda Atrndt covets and secures her notes, that info, like it was an insurance policy IMO.



here's some background info on incest:


Incest - Profile of an offender
http://family.jrank.org/pages/848/Incest-Profile-Offenders.html

Incest, silent partner:
http://www.clinicalsocialwork.com/incest.html


Inflicted head injury:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...s+blunt+force+trauma&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=ca

(general interest) Lust Kill:
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/lustmurder.htm

 

[Tadpole12]

I keep waving a flag on this one...I think the dna came from the paintbrush handle,and that is evidenced by the splinter that was found inside of JB,which was thought to have come from the paintbrush.
So a gloved person who touched the brush when JB was defiled with it also got that same dna on their gloved hands,which in turn touched the LJ's.it also explains why the dna was found in the blood on her underwear..it was already on the brush to begin with.
Thomas said Patsy took an art class at the local college,and IMO a likely source would be an instructor or fellow student;perhaps someone briefly borrowed her brush.

ya ...JMO8778 ... okay ...ty!...I see the flag!

 

[Tadpole12]

One of the most frustrating comments I read on these forums is "there is no history". There is a FIRST TIME for everyone who had a history. Every serial killer had a first victim in the series. Every pedophile had a first victim. Everyone who ever beat a spouse or child gave that first slap or shove.
If you get caught (or kill your victim) on that FIRST TIME- well, there won't BE a history, will there?

For sure... do well to keep in mind...

 

[Roy23]

I keep waving a flag on this one...I think the dna came from the paintbrush handle,and that is evidenced by the splinter that was found inside of JB,which was thought to have come from the paintbrush.
So a gloved person who touched the brush when JB was defiled with it also got that same dna on their gloved hands,which in turn touched the LJ's.it also explains why the dna was found in the blood on her underwear..it was already on the brush to begin with.
Thomas said Patsy took an art class at the local college,and IMO a likely source would be an instructor or fellow student;perhaps someone briefly borrowed her brush.

Skin cells would not be on a paintbrush. And the DNA in her panties was not skin cells. Put your flag down.

 

[JMO8778]

Skin cells would not be on a paintbrush. And the DNA in her panties was not skin cells. Put your flag down.

skin cells WOULD be on a paintbrush handle,and the dna liqified when it was mixed with her blood.that much we do know.

 

[Roy23]

skin cells WOULD be on a paintbrush handle,and the dna liqified when it was mixed with her blood.that much we do know.

The DNA in her panties is not skin cells. Whoever suggests differently is not telling the truth. I have seen the challenges to it but it was a liquid form. Probably saliva or mucous.

 

[BBB167893]

cool. I understand.
*not really if it's a false positive ie the result of contamination or the trace dna was an archive.
**that's a definite

*** see SuperDavepedia..... *smile

Back at ya! But I can't help but get the feeling that my effort was wasted. Can't imagine why that might be!

also ....Roy.... I've read very little re Linda Arndt obersavations: specific behaviour by JR or her specific observations that day re "Incest Dynamic"
....and ... as she tells it ...it all clicked, the Ramseys reaction and behaviour, when LA obseved JR carrying JBR's body.

Linda Atrndt covets and secures her notes, that info, like it was an insurance policy IMO.



here's some background info on incest:


Incest - Profile of an offender
http://family.jrank.org/pages/848/Incest-Profile-Offenders.html

Incest, silent partner:
http://www.clinicalsocialwork.com/incest.html


Inflicted head injury:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...s+blunt+force+trauma&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=ca

(general interest) Lust Kill:
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/lustmurder.htm

Well, it might help you to know that Linda Arndt was primarily a sex crimes detective. So this was up her alley.

 

[BBB167893]

skin cells WOULD be on a paintbrush handle,and the dna liqified when it was mixed with her blood.that much we do know.

That's what at least one expert in the field of DNA said, that I know of.

 

[Roy23]

Back at ya! But I can't help but get the feeling that my effort was wasted. Can't imagine why that might be!



Well, it might help you to know that Linda Arndt was primarily a sex crimes detective. So this was up her alley.

Dave,

I read about it today. I want you to know that I do have an open mind and before the corroborating DNA, it would be even more open. It is so easy to blame others for not getting an indictment. They had a lot of small pieces and theories and the truth is that it just would not have held up. I think the stuff about John's daughter dying earlier is garbage as to what his state of mind would be. He has no signs of being a molester. They are crazy theories.

I have read and tried to understand how you view a lot of the pieces. It is very creative. I even sat down and came up with my own theory based on how it would have happened if I believed some of the things that you do. One day I will send the scenario to you. It is unigue and twisted as your view is. I say that with respect because you have read and studied a whole lot. But I believe a lot of that information is slanted due to personal feelings of the authors as well as the desire to sell books. And I mean that from the Ramsey side too.

I could easily come up with scenarios of how someone who knew the Ramsey's tried to frame them with the evidence as well. I really am starting to understand the significance of the Ransom letter now. If the case is ever solved, it will be a story like no other. I better understand why people as such as yourself feel as you do because of the note. I am trying to be openminded. I would like to see others do so here as well, not necessarily you. I understand DNA pretty well and in July this case took a turn. It is brushed aside here and excuses are made. What we don't know is just how diligent this case is being worked with the new evidence.

Someone made a post not long ago that believes the Ramsey's are guilty. They said that Boulder should get all the people that were involved with this case to sit down and discuss all of this together with the new developments. I agree, as long as they keep their mouths shut. I believe if they did this and left their ego's at the door they may solve this case quickly. This whole case sucks the more I read, really disturbing no matter what your opinion is.

 

[BBB167893]

Dave,

I read about it today.

Excellent.

I want you to know that I do have an open mind and before the corroborating DNA, it would be even more open.

That's fine.

It is so easy to blame others for not getting an indictment.

I would say that in at least some of those incidents, the blame is well-deserved. Or doesn't it bother you that witnesses were not called, evidence was not collected, or that the Grand Jury was essentially a dog-and-pony show? And that's not just me saying that.

They had a lot of small pieces and theories and the truth is that it just would not have held up.

I don't know. I know of a lot of people who have gone to death row on a lot less. Scott Peterson is one. Casey Anthony looks like she'll be another fairly soon.

I think the stuff about John's daughter dying earlier is garbage as to what his state of mind would be.

Well, you're entitled to think that. But I'm guessing you never had that happen to you. Neither have I.

He has no signs of being a molester.

Would you like a list of that, too? Moreover, like I postulated earlier, it didn't necessarily have to be him. Sometimes I wonder if my bro isn't right.

They are crazy theories.

If it was crazy, Roy, I wouldn't buy into it, if you smell what I'm cooking.

I have read and tried to understand how you view a lot of the pieces.

Having any luck?

It is very creative.

Should I take that as a compliment or an insult?

I even sat down and came up with my own theory based on how it would have happened if I believed some of the things that you do.

That should be interesting.

One day I will send the scenario to you.

Oh, keeping me in suspense. All right, have it your way.

It is unique and twisted as your view is.

"Twisted?" You should have quit while you were ahead. A guy could take that the wrong way.

I say that with respect because you have read and studied a whole lot.

Well, to tell the truth, I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, you may be on "the other side," but you seem to be the kind of guy I could get along with in "real life." On the other hand, remarks like "twisted" have a way of putting me off.

But I believe a lot of that information is slanted due to personal feelings of the authors as well as the desire to sell books. And I mean that from the Ramsey side too.

No doubt. That's why I talk about putting the pieces together, instead of just following what someone else says in lockstep.

I could easily come up with scenarios of how someone who knew the Ramsey's tried to frame them with the evidence as well.

I'm sure you could, and I've heard a few in my day.

I really am starting to understand the significance of the Ransom letter now.

Really? You interest me.

If the case is ever solved, it will be a story like no other.

Of that, I have no doubt.

I better understand why people as such as yourself feel as you do because of the note.

Anything you want to tell me, or ask me? I'm listening.

I am trying to be openminded.

That's always good.

I would like to see others do so here as well, not necessarily you.

Well, my father always told me, "son, always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." That's not an insult. What he meant was it's not a good idea to let your intellectual curiosity override your common sense.

I understand DNA pretty well and in July this case took a turn.

A turn in the wrong direction, in my view.

It is brushed aside here and excuses are made.

That's due to several factors. Anyone here can list them for you, but for me, the big two are (1) I can't ignore the big picture; (2) I just flat-out do not trust the person who is putting all of her chips behind it. With good reason, I might add. You might understand DNA pretty well, but I don't think she does. I think she's too enamored with it and that she is blinded by her agenda. And that's not just my opinion. A lot of people, including several police, FBI agents and even former campaign workers think Mary Lacy is "in the tank" to use an expression very popular this last election. And I'm perfectly happy to give you specifics. It's not exactly Nixon going to China, here.

What we don't know is just how diligent this case is being worked with the new evidence.

Well, this is just informed speculation Roy, but I don't think they're doing all that much. I base that on past history.

Someone made a post not long ago that believes the Ramsey's are guilty. They said that Boulder should get all the people that were involved with this case to sit down and discuss all of this together with the new developments. I agree, as long as they keep their mouths shut.

Well, I don't know who said that, but I think it's a great idea.

If not that, I'm a big believer that the governor of CO (who was part of the prosecution team, BTW) should appoint a special team to investigate this case from the beginning.

I believe if they did this and left their ego's at the door they may solve this case quickly.

I say it's worth a shot.

This whole case sucks the more I read, really disturbing no matter what your opinion is.

Amen.

 

[wedavis]

When I read John R's comment about JBR being a "little Patsy" it reminded me of something that happened while I was an intern right out of college.

One of the producers for the company I was interning at made the comment to me one day: "you are like a young Sue" (not her real name but he was referring to his wife).

For the entire duration of my internship he relentlessly hit on me...


Here is an interesting google book on the subject of pedophiles (or at least excerpts):
http://books.google.com/books?id=91Tnr_uq-TAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=pedophiles#PPP1,M1