MA - Dylan Francisco, 15, mistaken for intruder, fatally shot, Chicopee, 16 July 2016

[DexterMorgan]

From July 18 article: http://www.westernmassnews.com/stor...sed-of-shooting-killing-teen-appears-in-court
"The D.A.'s office said that they believe it was confusion on both parts that ultimately lead to the teen's death." bbm
Agreeing ^, a lot of confusion. If someone had broken glass in my outer door, I would fear for my life & that of anyone else in home.

RIP Dylan Francisco. Thoughts & prayers to his family, friends, & community.


---------------------------------------------------------
^ Headline wording at first link seems a bit puzzling imo.
As if homeowner shot afam member/resident, because he thought it was a criminal trying to enter.
Nothing in article suggests teen had right to enter, had been invited.
"Mistaken for intruder" Seems the teen was an intruder or would-be intruder, not someone entitled to enter the home.
Enough splitting hairs about media's choice of words.

So why is he not granted bail as of yet? It wasn't premeditated and things were confusing I'm sure.

Now I know that the legal system has to play out. But no bail sounds like they really want this guy.

Also. I'm sure his friends wouldn't honestly say if they felt their friend was being the aggressor while circling the property, refusing to leave and knocking out windows.

Now what if they did go to the right house and the friend wasn't there but his parents were home. Would he still have been like this if the friends parents didn't answer the door for him.

What friend were they going to see and were they going there to actually fight the friend but banged on the wrong house while trying to start a confrontation?

Now like the other poster said. MA has strict laws. But I'm just mulling on things from a jurors standpoint. Jmo

 

[Lilibet]

I think the bottom line, confusion or not, is that this was a mature adult who could have assessed the situation. He wasn't in immediate danger. Yes, the window breaking was scary. But no one had entered his house and threatened his safety or life. The kid was not brandishing a weapon. This guy had other options before using lethal force against another human being, shooting through a door like Oscar Pistorius. I don't think someone this trigger-happy should be released any time soon.

I would like to know a little more about him...who he associates with, arrests, etc. His reaction is that of a person expecting trouble from someone armed and dangerous.

 

[al66pine]

....Also. I'm sure his friends wouldn't honestly say if they felt their friend was being the aggressor while circling the property, refusing to leave and knocking out windows.
Now what if they did go to the right house and the friend wasn't there but his parents were home. Would he still have been like this if the friends parents didn't answer the door for him.
What friend were they going to see and were they going there to actually fight the friend but banged on the wrong house while trying to start a confrontation? .... But I'm just mulling on things from a jurors standpoint. Jmo

sbm
Classic scheme for home invasion by multiple ppl: get homeowner focused on front door, engaged talking, while other dude goes to back/side door, breaks in. Sometimes an adult w ~10-12 y/o go to front door initially, to make resident think 'Oh yes, scouts selling candy or cookies.' 10 y/o keeps resident talking, Is my buddy Ralph here, when will he be back; or offer religious or political campaign lit, etc while 'Dad' goes round back to break in.

It would scare the bejeebers out of me, esp once glass was broken. JM2cts.

{{ETA#1: not uncommon for young teens to do this in some areas. ETA#2: to break in, steal, sometimes rape, injure, kill}}

 

[al66pine]

.... Yes, the window breaking was scary. But no one had entered his house and threatened his safety or life. ... This guy had other options before using lethal force against another human being, shooting through a door like Oscar Pistorius. I don't think someone this trigger-happy should be released any time soon....
His reaction is that of a person expecting trouble from someone armed and dangerous.

sbm. Curious - what other options should/could resident have used? Call 911? What other options? When start to use them?

 

[DexterMorgan]

I think the bottom line, confusion or not, is that this was a mature adult who could have assessed the situation. He wasn't in immediate danger. Yes, the window breaking was scary. But no one had entered his house and threatened his safety or life. The kid was not brandishing a weapon. This guy had other options before using lethal force against another human being, shooting through a door like Oscar Pistorius. I don't think someone this trigger-happy should be released any time soon.

I would like to know a little more about him...who he associates with, arrests, etc. His reaction is that of a person expecting trouble from someone armed and dangerous.

It must have happened fast if the wife didn't call the cops until after the teen was shot.

She probably was checking the windows as to keep a eye on the kids on the front of the house while the other kid headed to the back.

Now we see plenty of home invasions on here. Sometimes people forget if they left doors unlocked as well.

Now of course this kid doesn't look like a home invasioner. But would the judge have been more lenient with bail if these teens were older roughnecks from another area.

 

[DexterMorgan]

sbm. Curious - what other options should/could resident have used? Call 911? What other options? When start to use them?

Agree. If our son was the homeowner. Then I'm sure it wouldn't be as cut and dry for us to blame them.

But if our son was the teen who was shot then I'm sure we would probably put more blame on the home owner as well.

So I can definitely see both sides.

But I need to hear more before besmirching the homeowner for the one shot that he fired.

Its not like that case where the guy left his garage door open as a boobytrap and then shot the teen with a shotgun that was there to steal stuff from the open garage. Jm .

 

[al66pine]

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/07/funeral_services_announced_for.html
From ^ seems Dylan did not get a well-grounded, family-centered, comfortable start in life. Maybe resident did not either. IDK.

Any pix of door w broken glass? Front, side or back door? Storm door - a full-view w mostly glass surface, or only half-top glass?
Was gun actually fired from inside home, so bullet penetrated wood/metal 'inner' door, a solid no-glass door? ITS, but not sure. Link?

One article said Dylan & 1 teen boy were there; other said Dylan & 1 teen boy plus 1 teen girl finishing H/S w a summer course. So 2 or 3?
IIUC, all had been drinking alcohol. Has autopsy been completed? Report released? Were blood samples taken from others? From shooter?

I don't know what to think re the criminal chg's, w so many unknowns here. But I know it's sad for all involved & fam & community.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Okay. Not blaming the teen.

But was he a mean drunk for his young age?

Now he got that alcohol from somewhere and someone.

So they need to be tracked too since his friends that he were with was minors. Jmo.

Now my question is why was the teen so violent with getting in the house?

Now it could be a simple reason as too young and too drunk and need to get inside of a supposed friends house to use the bathroom.

But come on. If these teens had looked like Mike Brown and his friends from the cigar theft store.

Wouldnt we; try to analyze things a little bit longer before hanging the homeowner? Jmo.

 

[al66pine]

....Now my question is why was the teen so violent with getting in the house?
Now it could be a simple reason as too young and too drunk and need to get inside of a supposed friends house to use the bathroom.

Bathroom emergency? Ok, possible, esp if not able to resort to the classic 'whiz in the bushes.' Jm2cts.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Bathroom emergency? Ok, possible, esp if not able to resort to the classic 'whiz in the bushes.' Jm2cts.

Lol. When you gotta go. Hey hey. Then you gotta go. Lol. Hey hey.

But maybe the friend told them that I have drugs here so come on by.

And maybe the alcohol fued his thoughts at the wrong house while thinking the friend no longer wanted to share. Idk.

But imo. This is definitely alcohol related.

Jmo

Also. Most home invasioners and other criminals are under the influence of some type of drug as well.

So What should a home owner wait for during the kaos when they have a gun right there.

Because most home invaders don't pull out guns until they are inside the residence. Jmo.

Now MA may have strict laws. But who would give a crap about the castle doctrime at the very second of the heat in the moment with an unknown thats breaking your windows and pounding on your doors.

Jmo

 

[Lilibet]

sbm. Curious - what other options should/could resident have used? Call 911? What other options? When start to use them?

There's a good list in this link and more at Google. In this situation, as soon as the kids banged on the door, he could have addressed them calmly, asked them what they wanted, told them they were at the wrong house. That might have ended it. But when he felt there was danger, he could have quietly gone with his wife and kids, if any, into a secure room with a locking door, called 911, quietly given the information to the dispatcher, stayed quiet. The key is not to give away your location. Of course, he kind of broke all the rules by yelling, etc. But his wife could have either escaped the house or gone to a secure room. He had already called 911 before shooting the kid, so help was on the way and he had time to hide. The various articles emphasize having a plan, so you don't panic (which he did). And they caution against using a weapon as a first resort, as it can backfire on you and escalate the situation. Or it can get someone killed and get you arrested.

http://simplisafe.com/blog/what-to-do-if-youre-home-during-a-break-in

 

[nightwatch]

These are the kind of stories where it's very easy to imagine the homeowner's possible fear minding his own business in his own home. The link above says the homeowner was talking to him through the door. IDK what was said but surely telling him to leave is probably what was said. Drunk teens roaming the street banging on doors, once the glass broke escalating the fear. Not blaming the victim but at that moment the homeowner thought he was the victim of a crime. Jmo

ciao

 

[bluesneakers]

Lol. When you gotta go. Hey hey. Then you gotta go. Lol. Hey hey.

But maybe the friend told them that I have drugs here so come on by.

And maybe the alcohol fued his thoughts at the wrong house while thinking the friend no longer wanted to share. Idk.

But imo. This is definitely alcohol related.

Jmo

Also. Most home invasioners and other criminals are under the influence of some type of drug as well.

So What should a home owner wait for during the kaos when they have a gun right there.

Because most home invaders don't pull out guns until they are inside the residence. Jmo.

Now MA may have strict laws. But who would give a crap about the castle doctrime at the very second of the heat in the moment with an unknown thats breaking your windows and pounding on your doors.

Jmo

What would the homeowner have done if he wasn't armed? That's what he should have done here. I can't see justifying the murder of a kid because he was scared or angry. Broad daylight. He could see them. They weren't breaking in! The other day a kid pounded on my door, rang the doorbell and tapped on the glass. I ignored it but finally it was too much so I just answered (he was looking for a girl up the street). I never for a second thought he was trying to break in. If I had I would have ducked aside and called 911 or maybe even called my neighbor.

Note: I haven't looked up how frequently houses in this man's neighborhood are robbed during daylight hours.

 

[Lilibet]

These are the kind of stories where it's very easy to imagine the homeowner's possible fear minding his own business in his own home. The link above says the homeowner was talking to him through the door. IDK what was said but surely telling him to leave is probably what was said. Drunk teens roaming the street banging on doors, once the glass broke escalating the fear. Not blaming the victim but at that moment the homeowner thought he was the victim of a crime. Jmo

ciao

I agree the guy was scared. I'd be terrified if someone broke a window trying to get in. And I'd think I was about to be the victim of a crime. But at that point the crime was still vandalism.The kid had not entered the house and threatened the householder with a weapon. I would still try other ways to protect myself (mentioned above) besides shooting through the door. Being terrified and thinking he was the victim of crime is not a legal reason to kill someone if there is no immediate threat. If shooting to kill is his second response to a situation like this (right after yelling), he's a danger to his neighborhood. What if it was an hysterical neighbor he didn't know banging on his door seeking help for some unknown reason?

To be completely fair, he was a guy who had just been awakened from sleep and may not have been in a state of mind to make the best decisions. He has a job and may be a super nice guy. Maybe all that can be used for mitigation of his sentence. But he is still very likely to be found guilty of killing someone without justification. JMO

 

[al66pine]

....He had already called 911 before shooting the kid, so help was on the way and he had time to hide. The various articles emphasize having a plan, so you don't panic (which he did)....
http://simplisafe.com/blog/what-to-do-if-youre-home-during-a-break-in

sbm. ^ said resident called 911 before shooting. One MSM version (IDK if accurate re timing) states:

"Officers say ....Lovell fired his gun,... Lovell then called police, saying he shot an intruder." bbm sbm
http://kfor.com/2016/07/18/police-15-year-old-boy-shot-killed-after-being-mistaken-for-intruder/ June 18

 

[Lilibet]

sbm. ^ said resident called 911 before shooting. One MSM version (IDK if accurate re timing) states:

"Officers say ....Lovell fired his gun,... Lovell then called police, saying he shot an intruder." bbm sbm
http://kfor.com/2016/07/18/police-15-year-old-boy-shot-killed-after-being-mistaken-for-intruder/ June 18

I stand corrected about the timing, but that doesn't change anything about the rest of my post answering your question about what he could have done before shooting. If addressing the kid calmly didn't work, he should have gone to a secure room, called 911 immediately and done everything possible to stay safe until LE arrived. That's what the experts recommend.

 

[al66pine]

.... my post regarding what he could have done before shooting. If addressing the kid calmly didn't work, he should have gone to a secure room, called 911 immediately and done everything possible to stay safe until LE arrived.

Some ppl use benefit of 20/20 hindsight, w what the specifics in this case turned out to be, something the resi's did not know.

^sbm^
I read simplisafe suggestions at http://simplisafe.com/blog/what-to-do-if-youre-home-during-a-break-in, not sure if all points are useful in majority of/all situations. They boil down to:

1. Before break in: have a plan........................................... me, in red: like buy the simplisafe security system? okee-dokee.
2. During break in
- be quiet ..............................................................................Easy for resi's to comply w.
- don't use a weapon unless you are trained professional... Personal choice to use weapon. Or not. Invaders may have bigger, badder weapons.
- escape is choice 1............................................................ what if resi's. escape home & find more perps waiting? ready to attack? armed?*
- hiding in safe, locked place is choice 2..............................if interior doors not spec'ly reinforced, usu. easier than ext. doors to enter. Not so safe.
- press panic button on car-remote to honk horn.................Prob'ly not hurt to do, may scare invaders away. Or not.
- wait it out, for LE to arrive...............................what if LE does not arrive before invaders enter home, & injure, kill resi's?

Some ppl think: let invaders come in, take TV, PC, tablets, jewelry, etc, because that's just stuff, can be replaced.
True, I agree ^ 100%, NBD. If I knew that's all invaders would do, fine, take 'stuff.' Can we rely on invaders doing no harm to resi's, just taking stuff & leaving? IDK. All JM2cts.

Without more info about this case, IDK what to think about crim charges, whether warranted or not.

 

[Lilibet]

Some ppl use benefit of 20/20 hindsight, w what the specifics in this case turned out to be, something the resi's did not know.

^sbm^
I read simplisafe suggestions at http://simplisafe.com/blog/what-to-do-if-youre-home-during-a-break-in, not sure if all points are useful in majority of/all situations. They boil down to:

1. Before break in: have a plan........................................... me, in red: like buy the simplisafe security system? okee-dokee.
2. During break in
- be quiet ..............................................................................Easy for resi's to comply w.
- don't use a weapon unless you are trained professional... Personal choice to use weapon. Or not. Invaders may have bigger, badder weapons.
- escape is choice 1............................................................ what if resi's. escape home & find more perps waiting? ready to attack? armed?*
- hiding in safe, locked place is choice 2..............................if interior doors not spec'ly reinforced, usu. easier than ext. doors to enter. Not so safe.
- press panic button on car-remote to honk horn.................Prob'ly not hurt to do, may scare invaders away. Or not.
- wait it out, for LE to arrive...............................what if LE does not arrive before invaders enter home, & injure, kill resi's?

Some ppl think: let invaders come in, take TV, PC, tablets, jewelry, etc, because that's just stuff, can be replaced.
True, I agree ^ 100%, NBD. If I knew that's all invaders would do, fine, take 'stuff.' Can we rely on invaders doing no harm to resi's, just taking stuff & leaving? IDK. All JM2cts.

Without more info about this case, IDK what to think about crim charges, whether warranted or not.

Thank you for your response. I can see our overall approach to this situation differs, so we should probably agree to disagree and drop it. My only point is that if someone owns a gun and intends to use it if someone breaks in, they first need to be determined to do what they can to stay safe without using the gun. It should be a last resort, and only used if the person actually enters the house and poses an immediate threat. Using a gun to kill someone outside your home, based on "what ifs", should never be the first thing that comes to mind IMO. I can't begin to wrap my mind around that kind of thinking. I think the law agrees, and it will be interesting to see how this particular case plays out. JMO

 

[Kakidoll]

Ok, my 2 cents... well, probably not worth that today either. I'm a single woman living alone. I'm in a decent neighborhood in SW Florida. I am armed, I have a taser, I have pepper spray, and alarms on each door and sliding door, and a large dog. If i have a teenager/someone I don't know banging on front door and back door and multiple people outside my house and one breaks a window... you can be damn sure I will not sit back and wait for the police. We have teenagers wanting to get into gangs that have broken into houses during daylight hours, raped 70 year old women and beat them to death. I Will NOT be a victim. Your arm is thru my window, it will be broken or worse. And you enter my house, you are not leaving it standing. I'll go out kicking and screaming but i will NOT sit back and wait for help. Help usually doesn't make it in time if someone really wants into your house. And if they continue coming in when they know you are there... its not going to end well for you if you try to hide.

 

[al66pine]

Thank you for your response. I can see our overall approach to this situation differs, so we should probably agree to disagree and drop it. My only point is that if someone owns a gun and intends to use it if someone breaks in, they first need to be determined to do what they can to stay safe without using the gun. It should be a last resort, and only used if the person actually enters the house and poses an immediate threat. Using a gun to kill someone outside your home, based on "what ifs", should never be the first thing that comes to mind IMO. I can't begin to wrap my mind around that kind of thinking. I think the law agrees, and it will be interesting to see how this particular case plays out. JMO

Agreeing 100% w "...if someone owns a gun and intends to use it if someone breaks in, they first need to be determined to do what they can to stay safe without using the gun. It should be a last resort, and only used if the person actually enters the house..." bbm

If we differ, it's likely in our interpreting 'immediate threat.' When is threat immediate?
A. After perp broke a glass pane in outer door but is still on porch? No, IDT that is immediate (enough) threat.
B. Only after perp has invaded house and killed other resi? No, I think immediate threat was at some pt before that.
IOW, immediate threat is somewhere in between those two, but IDK where that magical point is. And 'no threat' can accelerate to 'immediate threat' in a matter for seconds.

Should have been clearer. I've learned lots on W/S. Thanks for expressing your thoughts. Welcome to respond or not. :happydance: