MA - Lizzie Borden: Axe murders, Fall River, 4 Aug 1892

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Bridget Sullivan reportedly died in 1948 so she was still living when I was a little kid.
 
I know Lizzie burned her dress- but did she wash her hair? If you hacked some people up wouldn't there be blood splatter all over your person? Your hands and face would be easily enough cleaned, but your hair (back in the day before dryers and if it was long as was the fashion) might take an hour to dry.
 
It seems that a person who hacked another to death would be covered in blood but I don't know any ethical way to prove it one way or the other.
 
deca said:
Has there ever been a modern day crime scene tech to look over the evidence. Things like angle of ax swings, blood splatter, etc.? The technology and knowledge is such now that I think they could say more accurately whether Lizzie did this or not.
I am on the fence.
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I remember a TV show where they did this, maybe the History chanel? They had Tom Vannater, a detective on the OJ case, review all the evidence.

If I recall correctly they determined she was guilty.

At any rate, my opinion of her guilt is certainly not based on a nursery rhyme and that is a completely insulting statement.

I don't believe there is an credible evidence that anyone else was in the house, she had more than enough motive, and I think her eventual estrangement from Emmay also points to the fact that at some point Emma figured it out.

I have read numerous articles and a couple of books about the case, so my
opihion is not based on the nursery rhyme or the TV show I reference above that, frankly, I found so boring I barely remember it.
 
deca said:
I know Lizzie burned her dress- but did she wash her hair? If you hacked some people up wouldn't there be blood splatter all over your person? Your hands and face would be easily enough cleaned, but your hair (back in the day before dryers and if it was long as was the fashion) might take an hour to dry.
Click to expand...

Unless you covered it with scarf/bandana, whatever.
 
Boyz_Mum said:
Thanks all of you, this is really interesting!

I didn't realize all the different aspects of the case (lesbianism, the half brother, other axe murders, etc...)

:blowkiss:
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Neither did I.


kbl8201 said:
oh and i'd be remiss if i didnt do this.


'lizzie borden took an axe, and gave her father 40 whacks.

and when she saw what she had done,

she gave her mother 41'
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How does such a murder become a nursery rhyme? :eek:

Mac62 said:
I just saw a show in which a modern forensics team examined evidence and got results from luminol that showed the killer had washed during the half hour it took the police to arrive. They concluded that it was indeed Lizzie that did the killing.
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I wonder if it's the same one I just watched on Destination America Channel. The info on TV doesn't have a date on it, but it sounds similar.

According to the show, Bridget was never called by her real name. The Bordens didn't care enough and they called her by the name of their last maid. There was speculation that she did it because she gave two different stories. Lizzy corroborated one of Bridget's stories and she was dropped as a suspect. If she had pointed the finger at Bridget they think Bridget would have been convicted because she was an immigrant. So if Lizzy did it, why would she let Bridget off the hook?

I recorded the show and I'll watch it again and give more info from the show later.
 
http://www.history.com/news/9-things-you-may-not-know-about-lizzie-borden

I'm going to list the topics. You'll have to read the article for more;

9 Things You May Not Know About Lizzie Borden
By Barbara Maranzani
August 3, 2012

1. Many people might have wanted to see Andrew Borden dead.
2. The case revealed some skeletons in the Borden family closet.
3. The lack of forensic evidence played a key role in the case.
4. Andrew and Abby Borden made an appearance at the trial—sort of.
5. The famous rope jumping rhyme got it wrong.
6. Lizzie Borden struggled in her later life.
7. Lizzie Borden made an appearance on “The Simpsons.”
8. New information may still come to light.
9. You can stay at the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast.
 
There are six parts to the series; http://www.providencejournal.com/to...-i-see-nothing-but-the-densest-of-shadows.ece

Lizzie Borden: Enduring Mystery
Part One: ‘To me, I see nothing but the densest of shadows’
June 21, 2013 07:17 PM

PART 1 of 6

A fog enveloped New Bedford Harbor the first weekend of June 1893.

Lizzie Borden could see little of it from her cell in the Ash Street jail, where she slept in an iron bed next to a washstand and a chair.

The 32-year-old spinster loved to read. But she had stopped following the newspaper stories about her trial, due to begin the next day....
 
okay, can someone tell me why the documents for her defense trial are still under lock and key and will never be released? Why not?
 
I am utterly fascinated by this entire thread.
 
Well I can not wait to read this when I have time alone and watch all the clips. Thanks steely!
 
chlban said:
Unless you covered it with scarf/bandana, whatever.
Click to expand...

Very interesting point about the blood. I'm not convinced that Lizzie did it, I think I'm on the fence on this one.

IF she did it, the scarf theory is possible. I just wonder how she would have disposed of it after - burning it? Using the menstrual rag bucket that some theories state she used to smuggle the murder weapon out of the house?

The only problem I can see with this - if there was enough blood, it could seep through the fabric onto her hair. I also don't know how much Lizzie would have thought up those details. She sounds like her family was well-off enough that she was quite sheltered so not the kind of person I would imagine would be very used to seeing cattle get killed and think much of blood splatter.

Another scenario could be using a head covering after. If she did it and then washed her hair, she could have covered it with something. In those days it was common for women to keep their heads covered when they went out of the house, such as shopping.

I don't know what the etiquette was in 19th century America. Would women have worn something like a bonnet inside the house? What about if they were in their property but outdoors?

Something worth considering - if I recall correctly, there was a heat wave at the time. Maybe hair would have dried more quickly than usual as a result.

I remember reading that her hair was dishevelled when help arrived at the scene. I don't know if my memory is correct. If it is, maybe it was frizzy from recent humidity? I don't know if people would immediately have taken a very close look at her hair, especially if part of it was covered by a bonnet or cap.

Another option could have been to clean up blood using a wet rag or towel. This wouldn't make the hair soaking wet, just a bit damp.

Once again I'm not sure if Lizzie did it because I'm on the fence on this one. :fence: And this is all just my two cents. :twocents:
 
Just thinking about how it was today and actually right around this time that the first murder occurred so many years ago. The one thing that always stuck with me about this crime was how the killer paused for over an hour before killing Andrew. That and the burning of the dress always made me believe Lizzie was the true killer.
 
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