MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #2

[keek]

Maybe JOK missing shoe is in the Ford Edge

I don't know if we or the jury know what the BF said when asked if he saw JO there.

 

[ch_13]

One thing I'm a little confused about is the drinking glass (not a cocktail glass, Lally) that JO walks out with when they leave the Waterfall Bar. The testimony was that JO was drinking beer all night. Did he switch to hard liquor at some point? Or was it just water in the glass? One thought might be that he was carrying the glass for KR. But then he apparently got out of the Lexus and still had it. If it was hers, he would have left it in the vehicle.

Maybe it's a minor point, but it would have been nice if the prosecution cleared it up on direct when questioning all the patrons and the bartender.

 

[Universecalling]

Do you think we've heard the meat of the prosecution's case (the physical evidence, phone, gps, doctors, etc.)? We haven't even heard from what I'd think are the most important players. If all the prosecution had was "some EMT heard her say it" - then a grand jury wouldn't have indicted her in the first place. This is all setting the table stuff.

If they stopped now... of course nobody is going to convict her.

I do think this is a somewhat tough situation for the defense. In a lot of crimes, reasonable doubt covers a bunch of possibilities. In this case, because of the storm... purported evidence... it doesn't seem like many other options are on the table (which brings me back to the either/or scenario) - so I think that's why the defense is leaning hard into the other idea.

A hard motive isn't a requirement. I think she was really drunk (and believe we'll have evidence on this later). They had a somewhat volatile relationship. They were fighting about something in the car sitting out in front of the house (maybe even if they should keep the party going or call it a night - who knows) he triggers her... he gets out... she rams into him and takes off. I don't think it was planned. I don't think it was intentional to kill him. Maybe she didn't even mean to hit him - just meant to scare him. Left without thinking or realizing she had hurt him badly. And... regretfully as indicated by her behavior later that morning (to me) she kind of sobered up some and remembered/realized something bad may have happened. Then, we then get her odd subsequent actions.

That's it. Nothing more.

Since you bolded the “grand jury”… have you ever heard a saying “you can indict a ham sandwich with the grand jury”? Or “grand jury would indict a ham sandwich”?
There is a reason that a saying among litigants.

 

[themonk]

Since you bolded the “grand jury”… have you ever heard a saying “you can indict a ham sandwich with the grand jury”? Or “grand jury would indict a ham sandwich”?
There is a reason that a saying among litigants.

thebedbug also mentioned 'meat' so i like where you are going with this

 

[Universecalling]

It's a pretty simply story for the prosecution to tell.

She was drinking, he was drinking, he ended up dead on the lawn with injuries that match damage to her car. She was driving that car, therefore, she is guilty of this crime.

It's taking a long time because they just don't have great evidence that this is what happened. The conduct of the investigation, combined with the question about when that Google search for hos long to die in the cold adds more than enough reasonable doubt for any impartial jury.

I do personally think she accidently hit him and this contributed to his demise, LE just doesn't have it.

Injuries to his arm, back of the head, and lack of injuries to his torso, are troubling. His missing shoe and a hat.
For a 6’2” guy getting hit by an SUV coupled with hard facts of his injuries just doesn’t compute.
45 pieces of plastic start showing up randomly up to three weeks after his death, fbi investigating, every house with a ring camera but this one…
I could go on for hours…
Honestly, I think this story is more than complicated for the prosecution to tell.
It requires literal mental gymnastics to make it fit.

 

[keek]

Injuries to his arm, back of the head, and lack of injuries to his torso, are troubling. His missing shoe and a hat.
For a 6’2” guy getting hit by an SUV coupled with hard facts of his injuries just doesn’t compute.
45 pieces of plastic start showing up randomly up to three weeks after his death, fbi investigating, every house with a ring camera but this one…
I could go on for hours…
Honestly, I think this story is more than complicated for the prosecution to tell.
It requires literal mental gymnastics to make it fit.

Oh, your comment made me think, was he trying to get out of her way and fell in the snow? Sneakers on and yes, where is the other. Started to try to get up, lifting his torso, putting his arm up and was run over? JUST thoughts as you say, need superhero mental gymnastics.. and oh please, no ring cam.
There has to be a way to determine if there 'was' one at some point.

 

[iusedtofloat]

Injuries to his arm, back of the head, and lack of injuries to his torso, are troubling. His missing shoe and a hat.
For a 6’2” guy getting hit by an SUV coupled with hard facts of his injuries just doesn’t compute.
45 pieces of plastic start showing up randomly up to three weeks after his death, fbi investigating, every house with a ring camera but this one…
I could go on for hours…
Honestly, I think this story is more than complicated for the prosecution to tell.
It requires literal mental gymnastics to make it fit.

Plus, we already know the FBI doesn't believe the narrative of Ms. Read hitting John with her vehicle.

 

[DeDee]

Prosecutor Lally said the federal investigation found no indication of a cover-up or evidence that O’Keefe entered the Albert home. He said grand jury minutes from the federal investigation are largely consistent with the state’s case.

“42 separate witnesses, 56 exhibits, over 1,400 pages of transcript which clearly demonstrate and indicate that the defendant, Karen Read, killed John O’Keefe,” Lally said. [ouch]

March 13, 2024
Federal probe findings revealed in court as Karen Read’s defense team pushes to dismiss murder case

 

[ch_13]

We'll have to see about the bartender who I read the statement about the MANY drinks she had in an hour. The tone of the statement at the time was that the bartender was aware because of the amount for KR to drink herself, which was the point, was so many in AN HOUR. I read that and thought, well, she certainly was intent on getting massively HAMMERED. Do not know what article or how that info came to be, but it was in past four or so months at least. No, it's not in this trial at this time I think. I was assuming it was at the first bar while reading that. Someone else may remember reading this if closely following from beginning story.
The perjuring issue def should of come up and decided upon and the person's response why under oath.

It comes from the prosecution's Statement of Case (see below screenshot). It's a description of Karen at the first bar, CF McCarthy's. Since it's video evidence, I assume they aren't just making it up. IMO, today would have been a good day to introduce it instead of all the useless questions that Lally asked. Maybe we'll see it tomorrow.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Prosecutor Lally said the federal investigation found no indication of a cover-up or evidence that O’Keefe entered the Albert home. He said grand jury minutes from the federal investigation are largely consistent with the state’s case.

“42 separate witnesses, 56 exhibits, over 1,400 pages of transcript which clearly demonstrate and indicate that the defendant, Karen Read, killed John O’Keefe,” Lally said. [ouch]

March 13, 2024
Federal probe findings revealed in court as Karen Read’s defense team pushes to dismiss murder case

"Largely consistent" LOL. It's my understand that the federal grand jury is still active. Maybe waiting to see what some of those witnesses have to say on the stand this time around? Looking at you, Mike Proctor.

Also, someone asked upthread if Brian Higgins, the ATF agent who clocked into work at 1:30 am, is on the witness list. I know he's on the defense list. He's the one who proffered testimony to the FBI. Proffered testimony is generally offered in the hopes of leniency. Should be interesting.

 

[TristanP]

thebedbug also mentioned 'meat' so i like where you are going with this

I know who can bring the red solo cups to this cookout.

 

[keek]

It comes from the prosecution's Statement of Case (see below screenshot). It's a description of Karen at the first bar, CF McCarthy's. Since it's video evidence, I assume they aren't just making it up. IMO, today would have been a good day to introduce it instead of all the useless questions that Lally asked. Maybe we'll see it tomorrow.


View attachment 502387

Yes, thank you very much. I read this whole report AFTER I wrote my piece. Yes, I was riveted reading the whole thing, what people were saying, why the 'how long does it take to die .. snow'. We're getting some answers to some things. She was certainly 'hell bent' regarding all the alcohol..no matter what. Head things were going on. In my mind there are super amazing forensic investigators o all kinds that I wish were on this case, but I know it's not a British detective series, where there are.

 

[TristanP]

Oh, your comment made me think, was he trying to get out of her way and fell in the snow? Sneakers on and yes, where is the other. Started to try to get up, lifting his torso, putting his arm up and was run over? JUST thoughts as you say, need superhero mental gymnastics.. and oh please, no ring cam.
There has to be a way to determine if there 'was' one at some point.

If a vehicle was involved, he had to have been hit by it and not run over. His injuries aren’t really consistent with either, though.

 

[LvsAMystry]

I’ve made an interesting observation during these proceedings. Those that are questioning tha facts appear to be awaiting the full scope of testimony and evidence that will come and remain open to either outcome dependent on same, whereas those that have already decided guilt before the completion of testimony clearly aren’t open to any conclusion but guilt despite what testimony and evidence may still come. It’s also funny too, having been a member of this forum a very long time I’ve also observed it always seems to be familiar names that take the opposite of the decidedly majority opinion. Neither of these things are important, just my musings!

 

[keek]

If a vehicle was involved, he had to have been hit by it and not run over. His injuries aren’t really consistent with either, though.

I just wrote how I wish there were the kind of forensic people of all kinds to work their magic to determine if he was and why his injuries are as they are. OR, what did cause them, the head injury, what hit him there, or what did he hit there with his head, things like that. It all appears it happened where he fell, but I'd so hope the stairs, yard, sidewalk, were all searched for any movement or more blood that may show there was a scuffle before he fell where he lay. Lots of people there first though, walking around, touching him.

 

[keek]

I’ve made an interesting observation during these proceedings. Those that are questioning tha facts appear to be awaiting the full scope of testimony and evidence that will come and remain open to either outcome dependent on same, whereas those that have already decided guilt before the completion of testimony clearly aren’t open to any conclusion but guilt despite what testimony and evidence may still come. It’s also funny too, having been a member of this forum a very long time I’ve also observed it always seems to be familiar names that take the opposite of the decidedly majority opinion. Neither of these things are important, just my musings!

More to come can be very eye opening and turn things right around is true, love to see if there is a way and it's been done, to see if Alberts house did have a ring camera then removed. ALL of this is so shuffled between both sides. That's how 'these things' are though till solid proof of 'this is what happened and how and who ', esp in this case.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I just wrote how I wish there were the kind of forensic people of all kinds to work their magic to determine if he was and why his injuries are as they are. OR, what did cause them, the head injury, what hit him there, or what did he hit there with his head, things like that. It all appears it happened where he fell, but I'd so hope the stairs, yard, sidewalk, were all searched for any movement or more blood that may show there was a scuffle before he fell where he lay. Lots of people there first though, walking around, touching him.

Well, his bruised fists - both hands - might well indicate a fight. The small, but deep back of the head wound could have come from being clocked with something like a free weight from the basement weight room or an iron from a laundry room, and there is no denying the arm lacerations could well be from holding up his right arm to protect his face from a now missing German Shepherd.

Or not. But then again, there's nothing on the ground or on an SUV that could have simultaneously caused them, as I'm sure the biomechanical experts the defense (and FBI) retained will explain.

Keep in mind also that there were two separate parties going on. One was a birthday party for one of the Albert sons, and the other of course being the post pub gathering of older folks. 34 Fairview is a fairly large house and has three finished levels with a total of five bedrooms on the second floor. It's unlikely everyone was in the same place at one time.

 

[Universecalling]

Oh, your comment made me think, was he trying to get out of her way and fell in the snow? Sneakers on and yes, where is the other. Started to try to get up, lifting his torso, putting his arm up and was run over? JUST thoughts as you say, need superhero mental gymnastics.. and oh please, no ring cam.
There has to be a way to determine if there 'was' one at some point.

*if* he truly never entered the house, we shouldn’t discount that Albert family owns multiple ford edges.
It’s been stated that JO had run-ins with one of the Albert’s kids.
There was a speculation of one of those kids attending the party. The fight could have happened in the yard before JO ever enters or is about to enter.

It was also stated today that JO was very tidy and particular about no shoes in the house. Was the Albert household also the type to leave shoes in the foyer bc the weather causes mud?
What if JO started to enter the house, started to take his shoes off, got in a scuffle with someone, dog reacted, bit him, he falls and hits the back of his head, loses his hat, others got involved, throw him out, dies from head injury/hypothermia.

In all this, it wouldn’t be inappropriate to assume he held on to the glass as a form of defense.

BUT, we will probably never know, because the house wasn’t searched, others weren’t looked at for injuries, witnesses weren’t separated.
All we have is altered reports, a leaf blower and solo cups in stop n shop brown bag.

 

[Universecalling]

I just wrote how I wish there were the kind of forensic people of all kinds to work their magic to determine if he was and why his injuries are as they are. OR, what did cause them, the head injury, what hit him there, or what did he hit there with his head, things like that. It all appears it happened where he fell, but I'd so hope the stairs, yard, sidewalk, were all searched for any movement or more blood that may show there was a scuffle before he fell where he lay. Lots of people there first though, walking around, touching him.

They didn’t see 45 plastic pieces or a whole shoe or a hat.
If they didn’t search for that or see it, there is no way in hell they looked at the stairs to see if he hit his head.

 

[TristanP]

The head laceration could have been caused by impact with the ground or a floor.

ACK! I posted a link but it put the pic, I didn’t want it to do that.

Nevermind, I can’t figure out how to post it without the image coming through.

This is a (GRAPHIC, BLOODY) pic of my daughter’s forehead laceration when she hit the side window of a vehicle in a car accident. Split it open and it’s similar in size and shape to the wound on JO’s head.

A doc sutured her up and it healed well, barely noticeable scar now. Although her cousin did give her a Harry Potter wand for Christmas (it happened on 12/21) lol.