MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #2

[thebedbug]

What do you think the 2 screenshots showed, the ones JM deleted at 2:26am?
Later she takes a screenshot of BA's contact info around 6am, and then deletes it, too.

it doesn't matter what I think they showed. maybe she was taking selfies and they didn't look great? <-- another thing done by millions of people daily.

I think we need to hear the actual evidence. I appreciate that document and the data it offers - but as far as I know - the data and times are not without dispute and haven't been cited in court.

at the very least, we've all heard about the 2:27am time for that search... and we've heard that it potentially has another explanation... and I'd say this is an interesting point. Data is data. Logs are logs. Applications are applications and record data. They do what they're supposed to do. It's not really a "maybe" type of thing. This is why I'd expect the prosecution to have appropriate experts.

 

[HarmonyE.]

We haven't heard their side yet, but it's anticipated that the defense's theory is that JO went straight down to the basement where he was confronted by his attacker or attackers. Julie's testimony was a little confusing about where the basement door is. From the real estate diagrams, the basement door is off the front foyer. It's before the kitchen and in front of a half bath off the kitchen. If this happened, it would explain why some of the people in the pretty large house never saw or noticed JO that night. I mean, it even has a library! There are three rooms in the basement, including a weight room and there is access to the back yard.

 

[arielilane]

I believe the defense has some very interesting recordings that will directly rebut this testimony.

Look forward to hearing it. Also, the being unaware of anything going on outside her bedroom is suspect. moo

 

[Wishbone]

I believe the defense has some very interesting recordings that will directly rebut this testimony.

The subterfuge of NA and many of the previous witnesses is blatant.

 

[thebedbug]

We haven't heard their side yet, but it's anticipated that the defense's theory is that JO went straight down to the basement where he was confronted by his attacker or attackers. Julie's testimony was a little confusing about where the basement door is. From the real estate diagrams, the basement door is off the front foyer. It's before the kitchen and in front of a half bath off the kitchen. If this happened, it would explain why some of the people in the pretty large house never saw or noticed JO that night. I mean, it even has a library! There are three rooms in the basement, including a weight room and there is access to the back yard.

Using the provided phone data - please tell me how the defense will show which of the JO movements are him going from the car to the house... down the stairs into the weight room (to continue the party!?!?)... almost instantly getting killed... then back out of the house out to his final resting place with the smashed glass in the front yard?

The defense won't be able to - because obviously it doesn't show that. How do you then reconcile this? Phone is just wrong? I'm curious.

* adjusted from 'you' to 'the defense' - anyone can jump in.

 

[ch_13]

OK no offense, but Canton is 23K. Not too many immigrants, I presume. I grew up in a megapolis and like urban life, but from my family tree, and my husband’s family story (they lived in a town with 18K inhabitants), of course everyone knows everyone, up to all local gossips. Everyone went to the same high school, probably even the same kindergarten. I missed Canton being that tiny. What’s there to expect? That everyone knows everyone is not an argument for the defense. There is an element of KR being a non-local, and a professor, too, so, “not their own”, but the fact that all these people knew each other is unsurprising. (And: one has to select from the same pool, because who in his right mind, except for maybe sheer careerists who want to move in, rapidly grow through the ranks, and move out, wants to relocate to this tiny village?)

Well, it's a small town and it isn't. It's less than 40 minutes from Boston. It's not some isolated village, it's a suburban bedroom community. I don't think everyone in town is part of this clique. I definitely got the sense that at least Nick and Karina Kolokithas were not a part of it. (And I should note that reportedly two of the jurors are Asian, which at least indicates that not everyone in the area is from the same close-knit Irish-Catholic background.)

But that brings up the question: Why did the Massachusetts State Police bring in Michael Proctor, a Canton local who knew most of the major players, as the primary investigator? Surely, the MSP has other officers who weren't conflicted.

 

[themonk]

The subterfuge of NA and many of the previous witnesses is blatant.

this in itself should be enough to convince some if not all of the jurors IMO

 

[themonk]

Lol the suggestion that Jennifer Mc was deleting selfies

 

[HarmonyE.]

Using the provided phone data - please tell me how the defense will show which of the JO movements are him going from the car to the house... down the stairs into the weight room (to continue the party!?!?)... almost instantly getting killed... then back out of the house out to his final resting place with the smashed glass in the front yard?

The defense won't be able to - because obviously it doesn't show that. How do you then reconcile this? Phone is just wrong? I'm curious.

* adjusted from 'you' to 'the defense' - anyone can jump in.

The defense believes he was lured to the party and was directed straight down to the basement when he arrived.
I'm not sure I understand why you think that's impossible or why you think these off duty cops wouldn't think to bring out whatever he brought in with him out with his body. Including the glass and his phone which they would have turned off.
We don't have John's phone data yet, but the Health app indicates he used stairs after leaving the Waterfall. There are no stairs along the way. No inclines either.

There is no way his injuries were caused by a car backing up, so something else clearly happened.

 

[rrsafety]

Rumor from the court house is that a Boston cop and friend of JO has been barred from the court house because he bumped into and pushed Karen Read during a bathroom break. More info coming soon apparently.

 

[housewife]

OK no offense, but Canton is 23K. Not too many immigrants, I presume. I grew up in a megapolis and like urban life, but from my family tree, and my husband’s family story (they lived in a town with 18K inhabitants), of course everyone knows everyone, up to all local gossips. Everyone went to the same high school, probably even the same kindergarten. I missed Canton being that tiny. What’s there to expect? That everyone knows everyone is not an argument for the defense. There is an element of KR being a non-local, and a professor, too, so, “not their own”, but the fact that all these people knew each other is unsurprising. (And: one has to select from the same pool, because who in his right mind, except for maybe sheer careerists who want to move in, rapidly grow through the ranks, and move out, wants to relocate to this tiny village?)

Canton is interesting. Most people who grow up in a smaller town move away for more independence, job opportunities, etc.
I'm not surprised that many people know each other in that town. I'm not surprised that being a big fish in a small pond reinforces their families to stay in the same location for generations.
I am surprised that all these people who know each other have the same powerful jobs running and enforcing the laws within their municipality. It's not like they are all nurses or accountants, working independently yet sharing the same career path. Cops (and council members) have the capacity to collaborate their power to enforce laws, put people in jail or entangle them in legal issues that last a lifetime with the stroke of a pen. Other professions have much more oversight and less power.
A sheer police careerist would have better integrity, actually.
IMO

 

[rrsafety]

Canton is interesting. Most people who grow up in a smaller town move away for more independence, job opportunities, etc.

IMO

I grew up a few towns away and nobody I grew up with could stay in town because all the houses are $1 million each. Canton must not be like that.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I grew up a few towns away and nobody I grew up with could stay in town because all the houses are $1 million each. Canton must not be like that.

Actually, the houses are very expensive in relation to some neighboring towns like Randolph and Stoughton and the state average. It's considered relatively upscale and it's a pretty town. There are two train stations that will bring you to downtown Boston in about 25 minutes.

 

[ch_13]

Using the provided phone data - please tell me how the defense will show which of the JO movements are him going from the car to the house... down the stairs into the weight room (to continue the party!?!?)... almost instantly getting killed... then back out of the house out to his final resting place with the smashed glass in the front yard?

The defense won't be able to - because obviously it doesn't show that. How do you then reconcile this? Phone is just wrong? I'm curious.

* adjusted from 'you' to 'the defense' - anyone can jump in.

This puts the onus on the defense to explain what happened, but of course they don't have the burden of proof, the commonwealth does.

We could just as easily ask:
How will the prosecution explain JO's wounds?
How will the prosecution explain JO's position on the lawn?
How will the prosecution explain the lack of damage to the SUV (except for the taillight)?
How will the prosecution explain the testimony of the snowplow driver?
How will the prosecution explain the twelve hour delay in finding any taillight pieces?
And finally, how will the prosecution show intent?

As for the phone, do we have an exact time that JO stepped out of the Lexus? I don't believe we do. A minute or two here matters a lot. For all we know Karen drove off and 30 seconds later while he was standing in the road for some reason, someone else drove by and hit him. I don't think any of the evidence that's been publicly released to date rules that out.

 

[Wishbone]

Jennifer McCabe appears so central to this case and I hardly know anything about her. For starters, how close was she to John and Karen. Did they socialize and party a lot together? It seems her husband Matthew was at the bar but no testimony from him yet. Anyone know anything about the relationship of Matt and Jenn to John and Karen. I'm really curious how well they knew each other.....

 

[thebedbug]

This puts the onus on the defense to explain what happened, but of course they don't have the burden of proof, the commonwealth does.

We could just as easily ask:
How will the prosecution explain JO's wounds?
How will the prosecution explain JO's position on the lawn?
How will the prosecution explain the lack of damage to the SUV (except for the taillight)?
How will the prosecution explain the testimony of the snowplow driver?
How will the prosecution explain the twelve hour delay in finding any taillight pieces?
And finally, how will the prosecution show intent?

As for the phone, do we have an exact time that JO stepped out of the Lexus? I don't believe we do. A minute or two here matters a lot. For all we know Karen drove off and 30 seconds later while he was standing in the road for some reason, someone else drove by and hit him. I don't think any of the evidence that's been publicly released to date rules that out.

the prosecution will have to explain things. that is ultimately their obligation.

but as I said, yesterday, and will continue to say.... 1) if the prosecution is not able to prove KR did it... beyond a reasonable doubt... that is not the same as 2) there is some conspiracy to cover up JO's murder involving many of the witnesses.

as two people having a discussion about the case - both of us (I assume) wanting a true and just verdict - I'm asking how you can reconcile any scenario where he's murdered in the house with the health data for JO? the data is there... I'm just asking what you think it shows. it can be easily cited.

keep in mind - a few pages back there was talk about this data showing evidence he was "running" and was quickly incorporated into theories. I posted a very clear and simple explanation how it does not show that. it, in fact, shows he was moving at a pace of 1 mile per hour...

since - there has been no reply - and it seems the "running" point is now... not a point? granted - this is a thing from this forum, not something the defense has talked about, yet.

 

[housewife]

the prosecution will have to explain things. that is ultimately their obligation.

but as I said, yesterday, and will continue to say.... 1) if the prosecution is not able to prove KR did it... beyond a reasonable doubt... that is not the same as 2) there is some conspiracy to cover up JO's murder involving many of the witnesses.

as two people having a discussion about the case - both of us (I assume) wanting a true and just verdict - I'm asking how you can reconcile any scenario where he's murdered in the house with the health data for JO? the data is there... I'm just asking what you think it shows. it can be easily cited.

keep in mind - a few pages back there was talk about this data showing evidence he was "running" and was quickly incorporated into theories. I posted a very clear and simple explanation how it does not show that. it, in fact, shows he was moving at a pace of 1 mile per hour...

since - there has been no reply - and it seems the "running" point is now... not a point? granted - this is a thing from this forum, not something the defense has talked about, yet.

Sorry, were you expecting a response? I missed your question.

 

[thebedbug]

Sorry, were you expecting a response? I missed your question.

i guess the response would be something like: oh - i see what you're saying. i have changed my mind OR no - i disagree with what you're saying, because (reasons).

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

the prosecution will have to explain things. that is ultimately their obligation.

but as I said, yesterday, and will continue to say.... 1) if the prosecution is not able to prove KR did it... beyond a reasonable doubt... that is not the same as 2) there is some conspiracy to cover up JO's murder involving many of the witnesses.

as two people having a discussion about the case - both of us (I assume) wanting a true and just verdict - I'm asking how you can reconcile any scenario where he's murdered in the house with the health data for JO? the data is there... I'm just asking what you think it shows. it can be easily cited.

keep in mind - a few pages back there was talk about this data showing evidence he was "running" and was quickly incorporated into theories. I posted a very clear and simple explanation how it does not show that. it, in fact, shows he was moving at a pace of 1 mile per hour...

since - there has been no reply - and it seems the "running" point is now... not a point? granted - this is a thing from this forum, not something the defense has talked about, yet.

Could you provide a link to this data and its interpretations, please?

 

[ch_13]

as two people having a discussion about the case - both of us (I assume) wanting a true and just verdict - I'm asking how you can reconcile any scenario where he's murdered in the house with the health data for JO? the data is there... I'm just asking what you think it shows. it can be easily cited.

Is this aimed at me? I haven't said anything about the Health Data. I've read some filings submitted to the court and listened to the preliminary hearings. I haven't seen the raw data and I wouldn't understand it even if I did see it. I'll wait for the experts to weigh in before I draw any conclusions.