MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #2

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Two points.

First, Occam's Razor only applies after giving both sides a fair hearing. Until you've heard all the trial testimony, then it's inappropriate to use it.

Second, Occam's Razor is not the appropriate standard for a criminal trial. The proper standard is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt". If at the end of the day all the jury has is the principle of parsimony, then they have to find Karen Read not guilty, as the state has not established their case.


Edit - Reading through your post again, I just wanted to add that I think you have most of the facts incorrect, at least insomuch as they have been testified to at trial.
OK it is your opinion that most of my post is incorrect.
Would be appreciated if you would elaborate on exactly what you are disputing.
its not really fair to make a negative blanket statement of someone's opinion post without the supporting information.

Occam razor is common sense. Of course it is used in trials.
 
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"appeared" is quite ambigious and not factful.
Blood alcohol testing is the only accurate measure.

Some of this group of people including KR appear to be hard party drinkers and it wouldn't be surprising if some had developed alcohol tolerance. They appear fine because they are since it takes more alcohol to get them high then an occasional drinker.
 
Some of this group of people including KR appear to be hard party drinkers and it wouldn't be surprising if some had developed alcohol tolerance. They appear fine because they are since it takes more alcohol to get them high then an occasional drinker.
True.
That is why blood alcohol is the only factual testing.
 
True.
That is why blood alcohol is the only factual testing.
I'm intrigued by this case. I went back and read articles to bone up on the case. Just a few observations: I personally am having trouble imagining a vast conspiracy involving so many players. Kr is fortunate to have the defense lawyers she has. Her family must have deep pockets. Cross examination Monday ought to interesting.
 
OK it is your opinion that most of my post is incorrect.
Would be appreciated if you would elaborate on exactly what you are disputing.
its not really fair to make a negative blanket statement of someone's opinion post without the supporting information.

Occam razor is common sense. Of course it is used in trials.

First about Occam's Razor: The prosecution has to show that the defendant has committed the alleged crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense doesn't even have to put on a case. I thought that was a pretty standard interpretation of the burden of proof in criminal trials. If you disagree and feel that both sides should state their case and jurors can apply the principle of parsimony to determine the more likely scenario, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But fair point on elaborating on the facts where I believe you are mistaken. These are taken directly from your post:

drunk as a skunk...
So far, we haven't seen any proof that she was drunk at all. The most that's been said is she was drinking a clear liquid out of a glass with a lime into it and she carried it to another bar. Supposedly the commonwealth has her receipts from that night and video of her pouring shots into her drink, so why didn't they introduce them? It sure would have been better than the hours and hours of testimony about kids' sports teams and what their spouse does for a living that we got.
Supposedly we'll get blood evidence, but it was taken many hours later, so they have to use some calculation to backup and figure out her BAC at the time of the alleged murder. I believe this will be hotly disputed by the defense, so we'll see.
(The funny thing is I went into this trial 100% thinking she was drunk that night. I can't fathom why the commonwealth didn't introduce physical evidence like receipts/videos if they have them. And with all the bar patron testimony I just don't know anymore. Let's see what the BAC tests show.)

caught on video driving recklessly hitting random things in her inebriated state....
C'mon. You make it seem she was veering back-and-forth across the road hitting lampposts and street signs. That's not true. The next morning, at low speed, she bumped into the car behind her while backing out of the garage. Maybe because of the drinking but it was also snowing with low visibility and she was clearly distraught.

was at the scene of the crime inthe window necessary....
This is certainly the crux of the issue. First, there were a lot of people in the immediate vicinity that night. Second, from what I understand from the phone evidence that's been revealed to date, they arrived at the residence at 12:24 and his last steps were around 12:31. So at least a 7 minutes gap. I need to hear a lot more evidence to be able to say if she was really there at the time he died.

texts confirming the volatility of this relationship at that moment...
Nothing like that has been introduced to date. Or for that matter introduced in any of the preliminary hearings or court papers that I've seen. And it's also important to note the last time Karen and John were seen together they were acting very "lovey-dovey" with one another. How do we reconcile this supposed volatility with their behavior that evening?

multiple people unconnected witnessing her unsolicited confession....
This is not true at all. I think eight first responders at the scene testified and three say they heard her say it. All three were from the fire department and are coworkers, so obviously not unconnected. One says he heard it while working on John. The other two say they heard it while talking to Karen directly. However, video evidence shows that one of the two was in the ambulance at the time. Also, all the firefighters claim that cops were nearby when Karen said it, but none of the cops heard it. No one wrote it down and it was only brought up days later. Finally, even though Karen was screaming, nothing was picked up on the police car dashcam, although many of her other words could be heard.
(I'm not going to even get into the claims of perjury and friendships with the Alberts and all that.)

I just want to say that we know eyewitness testimony is unreliable in situation exactly like this one. A high-stress situation, someone is distraught and screaming, there's no recorded video/audio, no one is writing anything down, the witnesses may have conferred, only days later are people asked about what happened, and the stories have morphed over time. How can anyone convict on the certainty that Karen said "I hit him" rather than "Did I hit him"?

her ring camera footage mysteriously vanishes through the night.
Nothing like this has been mentioned at trial and I'm not sure what it would show anyways since the ring footage we did see doesn't show her taillight. Also, I should mention that the defense claims other exculpatory footage has gone missing.
 
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"appeared" is quite ambigious and not factful.
Blood alcohol testing is the only accurate measure.

Unfortunately for the prosecution and the OUI charge, Read's BAC wasn't tested until she was sectioned at Good Samaritan and a standard blood draw was done. Even if they could manage to get it in, I can almost guarantee at least a couple of the jurors will ask if she started pounding drinks when she got home because she was so distressed over what she thought was John's apparent dis of her. He told her he'd text her if he was staying and she ever heard from him again. So far, no one has seen her drink lots of drinks or appear to be impaired.
 
If we really want to talk “common sense” and what is reasonable…
Few things for me just do not fit this category.

-Fugitive Task Force high ranking cop does not have ring/nest cameras. You leave your huge house unlocked? You know how many people he put in jail??? Mind blowing
-Another cop found dead in his yard and aaaaallll these players and household members don’t walk through the yard a week later and find even 10 pieces of plastic, let alone 45. Or a shoe. Or a hat???
-Dog doesn’t bark while a woman is hysterically screaming outside at 6am??? A dog breed that has “protective” ingrained into their DNA.
-2 butt dials??? Back to back by two different people
-Wanting to leave donuts (and coffee according to BA yesterday) in a car (but past 18 years you’ve left it on the counter). During a snowstorm.
-A person “bombs” your room almost hysterical at 6 am and wakes you up from your sleep. You’re a burly cop. You don’t get startled and pull your gun?

I know there’s more, but my brain doesn’t feel very smart after listening and watching these dunces for hours..
 
I'm not a fan of TB but don't feel his view of this shoddy investigation should be discounted due to his stance on vax, masks and whatever conspiracy stuff is. I happen to agree with the belief this has been a shoddy investigation.JMOO
Imo A lot of things are being confused. False equivalencies and things being painted with a broad brush. imo.
Turtle boy is anti vax etc so he must not be trusted with information he has uncovered in this case. Not equivalent.
I am in agreement that it appears that most people in this thread think the investigation was beyond a farce. Most agree on that one point. We may never have known what a boondoggle the investigation was without certain things coming to light by certain people ( The state of Boston journalism /newspapers/ print media is a whole other topic).
It is also hard for quite a few to reconcile the injuries JO suffered with being struck by KR’s vehicle. As I have posted before I am waiting for ANYONE to show me how that is possible. I am totally open to that.
I don’t recall reading a post from anyone recently who thinks for sure that KR is not guilty. ( I don’t follow this thread as closely as others tho so maybe I have missed that? )
Because of the way the police “investigation”aka lack of, was conducted, I am beyond disgusted that we may never know for sure what happened. I cannot imagine being JO’s family.

I am letting the trial play out, waiting for evidence to show me why KR should be convicted of this crime. So far…crickets.

All Just imo.
 
I think the assumptions by some here that all of these witnesses are lying... isn't quite the easy sell in the courtroom as it is online. It's going to get rough for KR.
 
I'm not a fan of TB but don't feel his view of this shoddy investigation should be discounted due to his stance on vax, masks and whatever conspiracy stuff is. I happen to agree with the belief this has been a shoddy investigation.JMOO

My question was, weren’t KR’s lawyers able to find anyone more reputable than TB in MA? And, I already got the answer: all major newspapers refused to question the integrity of Canton PD. TB did it. So, much as TB seems obnoxious to me, he was the only person unafraid to post about it in his blogs. So yes, we stay with him.
 
Forget all of the fluff about SODDI. The scientific data will be Karen's downfall. Juries love DNA at a CS. There was no dog DNA on John's [tattered] shirt. A grand jury indicted Karen Read. "The probable cause to arrest is more than mere suspicion" Lally wrote.

Her attorney said this as if people with medical conditions cannot be indicted and convicted of horrible crimes:

"According to CBS, they discovered O’Keefe “where he was dropped off, lying in the snow.” He had “severe cuts” to the arm and head, his eyes were “swollen shut, and he was bleeding “from the nose and mouth.” He had multiple skull fractures and hypothermia, the station reported. Read is accused of telling a paramedic, “I hit him. I hit him. I hit him.”

Her attorney told the court she has a “brain tumor, multiple sclerosis and colitis.”"

The 4th footnote is referencing the SERT team's activities on the date of JAN 29 or the same day John died:

Screenshot 2024-05-11 235407.png

https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/karen-read-document-240222-125438-65d7abb038003.pdf
 
Thank you. It's so weird that he was even looking through her phone for nudes and joked. So irrational sounding that he hopes she kills herself and whatever the other horrible things it's reported he said about her. Of course hugely unprofessional and erratic, but, he IS being investigated so.
It’s so disgusting, and it’s made worse by the fact that he clearly knew he could say those things to his friends and they were fine with it. What if it had been one of their wives?
 
Julie Albert has peculiar naively-haggard look, but I felt sorry for her when she said it. I had to Google it. (I seldom watch TV). Honestly, many of us could have ended up in this situation, and now everyone is laughing at her, poor woman. There is no guilt in being unaware of the hub terminology, sorry. While the problem lies with the 42-year old filterless hooligan who behaves like a school kid,

But of course, this is not his biggest problem. I checked what he used to write. Antivaxxer, antimasker, conspiracy stuff. Also, interesting use of the money that he raises for “just causes”.


He has a glib pen, but can’t they find anyone better to attract attention to the case? Is independent investigative journalism all dead? The fact that they had to use TB tells a lot about independence of the press, and this is way scarier than the man himself.
I haven’t followed this case until the trial started, so I didn’t know much about Turtleboy. Still don’t, really, but I have seen a few things that he apparently “leaked” that have turned out to be true. Which surprises me, because…well, Turtleboy. Lol.

However, he has clearly gone too far in several situations and that is wrong. I’m glad he is receiving some consequences for that.
 
IMO, the story so far is that it was KR who didn't want to go in to the Alberts home. Sort of like, her own 'hinky meter' was going off...even in her alleged inebriated state. IMO, she wasn't too sure if they were actually wanted or welcome in the home, something didn't feel right, and JOK was like...I'm going in. ( After being begged and led/directed by Jen M).
Exactly my sense. She got a hinky feeling. But she wouldn’t prevent John from going. And maybe the feeling was just about herself.

Going to after parties at homes of people you don’t really know strikes me as a bit odd at their age. But they’re a heavy drinking crowd it seems. Still living like high schoolers. Play fighting, after parties.
 
Forget all of the fluff about SODDI. The scientific data will be Karen's downfall. Juries love DNA at a CS. There was no dog DNA on John's [tattered] shirt. A grand jury indicted Karen Read. "The probable cause to arrest is more than mere suspicion" Lally wrote.

Her attorney said this as if people with medical conditions cannot be indicted and convicted of horrible crimes:

"According to CBS, they discovered O’Keefe “where he was dropped off, lying in the snow.” He had “severe cuts” to the arm and head, his eyes were “swollen shut, and he was bleeding “from the nose and mouth.” He had multiple skull fractures and hypothermia, the station reported. Read is accused of telling a paramedic, “I hit him. I hit him. I hit him.”

Her attorney told the court she has a “brain tumor, multiple sclerosis and colitis.”"

The 4th footnote is referencing the SERT team's activities on the date of JAN 29 or the same day John died:

View attachment 503052

https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/karen-read-document-240222-125438-65d7abb038003.pdf
If it were you or your family member that was in KR’s shoes, would you be ok with being convicted on the sole basis of how this investigation was conducted? Life in prison for you or your family member.

1. Grand jury would indict a ham sandwich. Remember …, defense does not get to present rebuttal to grand jurors.
2.his injuries are not beyond reasonable doubt being caused by a vehicle hit. A 3 phD analyst FBi trusts even says so.
3. “I hit him” was not written in ANY initial report, by ANYONE.
4. DNA on the vehicle? You mean solo cups in a brown bag without a cover sloshing by the bumper?
5. Witnesses who blatantly omit info on the stand, only to be called out by the defense. Their arrogance has to be insulting the jurors’ intellect.

Again, if it were you this is happening to, or your child, would you be ok getting convicted on the basis of this global embarrassment of an investigation?
 
LOCAL NEWS

Karen Read murder trial includes paramedic testifying he heard "I hit him, I hit him"​


DEDHAM – Testimony in Karen Read's high-profile murder case continued on Tuesday. Witnesses included a Canton paramedic who testified that he heard a woman say "I hit him" the morning Boston police officer John O'Keefe's body was found in 2022.

Paramedic says he heard "I hit him, I hit him"

Timothy Nuttall, a Canton firefighter and paramedic, treated O'Keefe when his body was discovered.

< >

"I heard 'I hit him, I hit him,'" Nuttall said. He testified that a woman at the scene who had blood on her face responded by saying that when he asked "Do you know him?"

Nuttall said he was not certain which woman said it, but that she had blood on her face.
 
If it were you or your family member that was in KR’s shoes, would you be ok with being convicted on the sole basis of how this investigation was conducted? Life in prison for you or your family member.

1. Grand jury would indict a ham sandwich. Remember …, defense does not get to present rebuttal to grand jurors.
2.his injuries are not beyond reasonable doubt being caused by a vehicle hit. A 3 phD analyst FBi trusts even says so.
3. “I hit him” was not written in ANY initial report, by ANYONE.
4. DNA on the vehicle? You mean solo cups in a brown bag without a cover sloshing by the bumper?
5. Witnesses who blatantly omit info on the stand, only to be called out by the defense. Their arrogance has to be insulting the jurors’ intellect.

Again, if it were you this is happening to, or your child, would you be ok getting convicted on the basis of this global embarrassment of an investigation?
That'll never happen because I don't drink and drive. Let's remember Karen left John's body laying in the snow until he died of hyperthermia. As if his other injuries weren't fatal on their own, HE FROZE TO DEATH.

How would you like it if someone left your loved one alone to die of hyperthermia in the snow in below freeing temperatures? His body had a core temperature of 80 degrees.
 
And the FBI was already investigating the investigation before Turtleboy ever wrote his first article. So there was a great scoop out there for any newspaper that was willing to look into this case.

I've heard some claim that the media didn't want to touch it because it would affect their cozy relationship with the cops and the DA. But this is also the city of Spotlight, so surely there are reporters who wouldn't be afraid of the backlash. Perhaps it's the modern media landscape. The industry has been so decimated that that no paper can afford to spend the time and money doing the sort of investigative journalism they would have twenty years ago.

I can see that maybe, before TB ran away with this case to his blog, no serious newspaper saw any other alternative to “KR did it”.

However, that the investigation was technically flawed, the public had the right to know. The taxpayers would appreciate it.
 
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