Max Shacknai EMS Report

[Zinn]

Here's an additional excerpt from Nina's audio interview regarding news Dina received from Dr. Peterson on Tuesday evening:

(begins at 41:12 of audio interview)
Dr. Peterson came into the hospital that Tuesday evening and very abruptly said to my sister, “Well I don’t know if this kid’s ever gonna walk or talk again.”

-----------------------------------

Please note, I'm not claiming these are accurate statements, just sharing what Nina stated in her lengthy audio interview. I have no idea if they're accurate statements.

 

[Betty P]

Here's an except from Nina's audio interview on this topic:

(Begins at 33:30 of audio)
Then Thursday, Dr. Peterson had a meeting with Dina and Jonah and said that the extent of the damage in Max’s brain, there was no way that he could have had CPR within two minutes, like, it wasn’t, it wasn’t possible that he had CPR within two minutes of, you know, not having enough oxygen. It just wasn’t possible. So my sister said, “Well, what, like, what could cause this? What could cause a six year old to go into full cardiac arrest? A healthy six year old to go into full cardiac arrest? And he said, “Well, a possibility is suffocation.” That’s how it came up.

(Please note it was Nina who said "That's how it came up" in reference to the possibility of Max being suffocated. That's part of the transcript, not an editorial comment by me.)

Well, according to Nina's statements, Dr. Peterson ended up being very, very wrong about the COD. As wrong as he was, his statements still wouldn't justify retaliatory assault or homicide by a family member against RZ. Such an excuse would be difficult to defend in a trial.

 

[katydid23]

I think Max was immediately unconscious, and rapidly aystolic from the moment of impact on the floor.

I'm extremely doubtful he said anything after impact. Before he fell, he may have called out "Ocean" or something, but not after.

I also want to comment that the "vomit" discussed on the paramedic report was passive regurgitation up the esophagus, not active vomiting.

Dr. Melinek commented in her report that Max had a severe aspiration pneumonia during his hospitalization. It's extremely likely that this is a result of his full stomach and regurgitation at the time of the accident from what we can see of the paramedics comments. Aspiration pneumonitis is like a chemical burn of the lung tissue from stomach acid and partially digested stomach contents. This can be quite severe, and interfere with oxygenation, despite high levels of oxygen delivered by ventilator in ICU.

But weren't we told by those on the scene that he yelled out OCEAN and that he was given 'rescue breaths' by RZ? But neither of those things are true, apparently. Does that concern you?

 

[Betty P]

But weren't we told by those on the scene that he yelled out OCEAN and that he was given 'rescue breaths' by RZ? But neither of those things are true, apparently. Does that concern you?

No, we don't know if any of those allegations are true. Even if they are true, they don't constitute homicide.

 

[Zinn]

Well, according to Nina's statements, Dr. Peterson ended up being very, very wrong about the COD. As wrong as he was, his statements still wouldn't justify retaliatory assault or homicide by a family member against RZ. Such an excuse would be difficult to defend in a trial.

Betty P, I completely agree with you, but I'll point out that Nina has claimed this information was given to the family on Thursday, after Rebecca was already deceased. Again, I'm not validating the timeline provided by Nina, just quoting her interview.

And in Dr. Peterson's defense, Nina didn't quote him as saying Max was suffocated, she quoted him providing one scenario that could potentially result in cardiac arrest in a healthy child. After hearing Nina's interview and seeing Dina on Dr. Phil's show, I was struck by how often both of them draw very specific conclusions from limited information. I don't know if that's a general character trait they share or if it's a reaction to a situation in which a surviving caregiver (JS) provided limited information under stressful circumstances.

 

[Salem]

Please link the audio interview that is being referred to, in the above posts.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[Zinn]

Please link the audio interview that is being referred to, in the above posts.

Thanks,

Salem

Sure thing. Nina's lengthy audio interview can be found at the following link: http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

Please be sure to click on the audio link, not the video link, to hear the full interview.

 

[time]

Here's an additional excerpt from Nina's audio interview regarding news Dina received from Dr. Peterson on Tuesday evening:

(begins at 41:12 of audio interview)
Dr. Peterson came into the hospital that Tuesday evening and very abruptly said to my sister, “Well I don’t know if this kid’s ever gonna walk or talk again.”

-----------------------------------

Please note, I'm not claiming these are accurate statements, just sharing what Nina stated in her lengthy audio interview. I have no idea if they're accurate statements.

Well, if this is true, the timing could be very significant!

 

[K_Z]

And in Dr. Peterson's defense, Nina didn't quote him as saying Max was suffocated, she quoted him providing one scenario that could potentially result in cardiac arrest in a healthy child. After hearing Nina's interview and seeing Dina on Dr. Phil's show, I was struck by how often both of them draw very specific conclusions from limited information. I don't know if that's a general character trait they share or if it's a reaction to a situation in which a surviving caregiver (JS) provided limited information under stressful circumstances.

BBM
I very much agree with this observation, Zinn.

The "Boy, Interrupted" article reveals additional medical details of when Dina states she had information about Max's prognosis. The first comment is attributed to Monday, on her arrival, and the second, from Tuesday, the day of Rebecca's death:

“He had a neck brace and a respirator... and a tube drilled into his skull to remove excess fluids. They said it was a heart attack. I couldn’t understand how all the injuries... were explained by a heart attack.”

...the Coronado police theorized that the boy went into cardiac arrest while playing upstairs and somehow toppled over the staircase banister, grabbing a crystal chandelier near the landing to break his fall and taking it down with him.

I'm not aware of any other sources that state that that the police ever thought Max sustained a cardiac arrest FIRST, before the fall.

And while Dina explains in layperson terms what she understood to be a "heart attack"-- this is definitely not language that any health care professional would have used when explaining what happened to Max. They would have said his heart stopped, or used the term "cardiac arrest." And they definitely would not have emphasized "heart attack" without also emphasizing the massive head trauma Max suffered in his 10+ foot fall. It would have been plainly obvious to docs at that point that Max had suffered massive head trauma, with prolonged cardiac arrest at the scene. (Please reference the above quoted trauma studies.) Dina minimizes that Max suffered severe head trauma, and focuses on "heart attack". Docs would not be musing about an oddity like a heart attack preceeding a fall in a healthy child with essentially no cardiac history-- the head trauma was the most obvious answer.

The full extent of his injuries, IMO, was almost certainly known by mid afternoon, or suppertime Monday. He would almost certainly had his first MRI by then, and certainly had had at least one, and maybe a second CT by then. (Along with other diagnostic tests.)

These comments by Dina to the interviewer were attributed to Tuesday, the day of Rebecca's death:

Max’s physicians were still looking for clues to explain his cardiac arrest.

As Dina was leaving the hospital, a Coronado police detective paid her a visit. “Are you aware what happened?” he asked.

When Dina returned to the hospital, Max’s neurologists delivered crushing news: The MRI revealed extensive damage to his basal ganglia, the brain structure associated with motor function.

For the next three days, Dina’s life consisted of a diminishing litany of denial and bargaining. She contacted associates at the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix. She looked into spiritual healers. Meanwhile, Max slipped deeper into the fog. Finally, on Friday, July 15, after an unexpected spike in brain pressure, Max’s EEG went flat.

http://www.phoenixmag.com/lifestyle/valley-news/201208/boy--interrupted-full-version/2/

 

[time]

This has undoubtedly been posted elsewhere, but maybe beneficial here?

July 14th, 6 pm - Officer Adkins says in the search warrant that he was asked to respond to the Childrens' Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report to be filed.

On his follow up with Dr. Peterson:

"He informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest."

"Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concern made based on the - the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall."

 

[bourne]

This has undoubtedly been posted elsewhere, but maybe beneficial here?

July 14th, 6 pm - Officer Adkins says in the search warrant that he was asked to respond to the Childrens' Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report to be filed.

On his follow up with Dr. Peterson:

"He informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest."

"Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concern made based on the - the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall."

Do we have Max's medical records from Rady's Hospital available for perusal? Rebecca's sister Mary had specifically stated on the most recent Dr. Phil show that the word "suffocation" was written in Max's medical records. His records would contain medical logs giving specific times the word suffocation was used.

 

[bourne]

Betty P, I completely agree with you, but I'll point out that Nina has claimed this information was given to the family on Thursday, after Rebecca was already deceased. Again, I'm not validating the timeline provided by Nina, just quoting her interview.

And in Dr. Peterson's defense, Nina didn't quote him as saying Max was suffocated, she quoted him providing one scenario that could potentially result in cardiac arrest in a healthy child. After hearing Nina's interview and seeing Dina on Dr. Phil's show, I was struck by how often both of them draw very specific conclusions from limited information. I don't know if that's a general character trait they share or if it's a reaction to a situation in which a surviving caregiver (JS) provided limited information under stressful circumstances.

Plz clarify. So according to Nina in her phone interview to CBS8, "Dr. Peterson came into the hospital that Tuesday evening and very abruptly said to my sister, " 'Well I don’t know if this kid’s ever gonna walk or talk again.' "

But in the very same interview Nina also says she, Dina and the Shacknai family did not learn about the suffocation premise until Thursday?

 

[time]

Do we have Max's medical records from Rady's Hospital available for perusal? Rebecca's sister Mary had specifically stated on the most recent Dr. Phil show that the word "suffocation" was written in Max's medical records. His records would contain medical logs giving specific times the word suffocation was used.

As far as I know, we don't, unfortunately :shrug:

I wish we did since that is one big missing piece. Perhaps Anne Bremner has seen them or obtained a copy? IDK, would those have been in files on Rebecca. I never heard whether Bremner was allowed to get files on Max's case?

 

[bourne]

As far as I know, we don't, unfortunately :shrug:

I wish we did since that is one big missing piece. Perhaps Anne Bremner has seen them or obtained a copy? IDK, would those have been in files on Rebecca. I never heard whether Bremner was allowed to get files on Max's case?

I don't think Bremner is privvy to Max's case files as she's not representing his family. However, if Rebecca's case is re-opened by AG, then I believe she then has a legal right to secure those files for investigative purposes into Rebecca's death.

 

[jjenny]

It seems to me that if they couldn't come up with the cause for cardiac arrest, spinal cord injury was not diagnosed until the autopsy.
Maybe it was difficult to see because the spine itself was intact.

 

[K_Z]

It seems to me that if they couldn't come up with the cause for cardiac arrest, spinal cord injury was not diagnosed until the autopsy.

Maybe it was difficult to see because the spine itself was intact.

BBM.

I think it is not at all decisive (yet) to the public when the high spinal cord contusion was evident on radiographic imaging. I strongly believe Max’s medical records hold the answers to this question. (Both when the doctors and staff knew, and the family was notified.) I believe the timing of this information is quite important when evaluating the circumstances of Rebecca’s death, and is quite compelling for her case to be reopened. (I support both deaths being reopened by authorities.)

I have been in discussion with an MD/ PhD, who is a neuroimaging (MRI) specialist, and a head and neck injury specialist, as well as a clinical and academic neurologist. (University medical school professor and expert.) I have offered his personal credentials and information to moderators here, and evidence of our discussions, if necessary to substantiate this, and a previous post.

I have discussed this case with him, and he has reviewed the autopsy report, as well as relevant case information that is available. It is his opinion, that the radiographic evidence of the high spinal cord injury on MRI would have been evident at 2 to 12 hours post-injury, and would have evolved (become worse) and become more evident over time. I specifically discussed whether the cranial bony injuries, global hypoxic cerebral edema, or young age of the patient would have made diagnosis of the high spinal cord contusion more difficult to diagnose on MRI. He states categorically “no”. Of course, he would like to see the entire record, as well as the specific radiographic reports, but he is confident that the docs and radiologists caring for Max would have been quite aware of the specific details of his injuries very early on (within hours of admission to Rady), as well as the likely prognosis.

Specifically, he believes the docs would have been very aware of the high spinal cord injury.

 

[jjenny]

If this doctor was aware of the spinal cord injury, then why did he think this child was suffocated? Spinal cord injury explains why he went into cardiac arrest. Yet apparently the doctor couldn't find a reason for cardiac arrest. It just doesn't jive.
So I don't think he was aware, for whatever reason.

 

[K_Z]

If this doctor was aware of the spinal cord injury, then why did he think this child was suffocated? Spinal cord injury explains why he went into cardiac arrest. Yet apparently the doctor couldn't find a reason for cardiac arrest. It just doesn't jive.

So I don't think he was aware, for whatever reason.

I agree. That is a really important question, jjenny.

Dr. Peterson is alive and well, from all indications. From my perspective, he is reluctant to answer these questions publicly, at this point in time. He has not moved to support Dina's claims, either with interviews or with written statements. He has not moved to disclaim her comments, either. (And I suspect that hospital attorneys may have influenced his ongoing silence there.)

So his comments, as reported by Nina and Dina, are puzzling, and far from settled.

I hope he will have public comments about these issues at some point soon. And I hope very much that Dina will choose to make Max's medical records available, in their entirety, as part of her search for truth.

 

[Zinn]

Plz clarify. So according to Nina in her phone interview to CBS8, "Dr. Peterson came into the hospital that Tuesday evening and very abruptly said to my sister, " 'Well I don’t know if this kid’s ever gonna walk or talk again.' "

But in the very same interview Nina also says she, Dina and the Shacknai family did not learn about the suffocation premise until Thursday?

Correct. The interviewer brought this up as well in an effort to explore the credibility of the claim that a voicemail with grim news triggered Rebecca to commit suicide. Nina responded by saying they (at least Nina and Dina, not sure if she was including medical professionals) still believed Max would survive because they were working on the assumption that he had been given CPR within two minutes of the fall. So Monday and most of Tuesday they believed (according to Nina) that Max would recover but maybe miss the soccer season and start first grade late. Tuesday evening they learned he might not walk or talk again but still believed he would survive. She was very specific about that distinction.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I don't follow this case much, but I am curious about something. Is Dina trying to somehow get Rebecca indicted post mortem for the death of Max? Please tell me I'm wrong.