Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[MissJ]

My son was an active child, climbing on anything and invariably falling and getting odd injuries that would have been hard to explain. When he was eight I caught him putting a ladder up to the house and climbing onto the roof and jumping off. Children do odd and dangerous things if given a second alone.

 

[time]

No, I never saw that. The first time I saw it was on Dr Melenick's report.
I don't think it could be food because of regurgitation though.

We discussed this a bit starting here and I guess it was jjenny who commented on the possibilities most from a medical perspective:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181350&page=2

Also, I cannot find mention of this in the official autopsy. It appears to only be in Melinek's brief report. But perhaps if you want to discuss it, that could be done in the "Experts' Report" thread.

 

[Quester]

I thought KZ explained that a while back - was it possibly food because of regurgitation?

Yes - IIRC, it was thought to be as a result of aspirating vomit.

 

[time]

Yes - IIRC, it was thought to be as a result of aspirating vomit.

Thanks, that's what I remembered. Maybe 'plant material' is somewhat misleading or purposefully broad.

 

[Jessica2012]

Thanks, that's what I remembered. Maybe 'plant material' is somewhat misleading or purposefully broad.

Im not so sure Dr. Melenick would be able to include something misleading or purposefully broad, everything else about his lungs was pretty direct. If he aspirated vomit, he would have had to at some point eaten plant material. Everything else about the appearance of the lungs can be explained but this. Thank you guys so much for your help

 

[bourne]

Thanks, that's what I remembered. Maybe 'plant material' is somewhat misleading or purposefully broad.

Remember, Dr. Melinek tends to make inferential leaps.

 

[time]

Im not so sure Dr. Melenick would be able to include something misleading or purposefully broad, everything else about his lungs was pretty direct. If he aspirated vomit, he would have had to at some point eaten plant material. Everything else about the appearance of the lungs can be explained but this. Thank you guys so much for your help

I didn't actually mean she was being misleading. I don't know if that phrase is used by professionals because they didn't or couldn't identify it as 'food'. But to me a broccoli leaf is plant material. No matter, I don't see it as much importance.

 

[Jessica2012]

I didn't actually mean she was being misleading. I don't know if that phrase is used by professionals because they didn't or couldn't identify it as 'food'. But to me a broccoli leaf is plant material. No matter, I don't see it as much importance.

Got you, thanks so much

 

[Quester]

Yes - I believe "plant material" just means food from the plant group so with all the vomiting MS was reported to have done after the fall, along with whatever CPR/rescue breathing/lifesaving attempts, poor MS must have inhaled some of the vomit into his lungs and that was found at autopsy. JMO

 

[DeDee]

I don't think anyone here is disputing the AR findings that MS ultimately died from lack of oxygen, or that he had a spinal cord contusion. I think what some of us are debating (and are in agreement with Dr. Brad Peterson about) is that MS might have been unconscious prior to his fall.

The fall alone wouldn't have rendered him unconscious til he hit the ground, since hitting the ground is what apparently caused the contusion. (AR for reference)

The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground."

JMO

I agree with this possibility.

"The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground."

 

[Carioca]

I agree with this possibility.

"The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground."

I agree. IMO, another scenario: If he suffered a cardiac arrest before he fell, he would have been unconscious when he went over the railing, thus unable to break the fall with his hands. So yes, I can see how that could be a possibility. Just trying to think outside the box.
:twocents:

 

[DeDee]

Per AR http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf on page 4:

“Patterned abrasions or scrapes on back, roughly corresponding to ribs or spinous processes (bumps down the middle of the back)”

My question: Could MS’ back injuries be due to the 25+ minutes of CPR chest compressions? TIA

No. EMT is focused on Max's immediate care. Already appearing cyanotic, resuscitation is limited due to fluid accumulation in MS's passageways. EMT is most certainly not pounding air compresses forcibly enough on his small chest so that it damages skin on his back.

Please do not characterize my questions as "accusatory" because they support another way of looking at these issues more favorable to a grieving Mother....also delared a "victim" on this Board. Thanks to the Mods for not making this Board One sided...and respecting, as YOU wish to be respected, the idea that other view points are tolerated in this tragic but very confusing case.

Yes, thanks.

According to the AR, RZ was not doing CPR when the officer arrived on scene.
Also, according to the AR, CPR was started after EMT's arrived. The EMT's manually pumped the heart and gave oxygen until the heart resumed beating.

According to both the ICU Chief and the ME, the initial lack of oxygenated blood to the BRAIN resulted in brain death. We can argue forever about whether or not his heart stopped because of the fall or suffocation but the result to Max was the same. Those first minutes of unpumped blood killed him.

RZ was a certified medical technician who worked for surgeons. So, yes, I do question why she was not performing CPR on Max when the officer arrived.
If she had done so, the outcome may be different.

CPR wasn't started in the first several minutes
A very odd pattern of abrasions down the boy's back
An unexplained scooter on top of him
Unexplained balls
Unexplained cut shirt
A claim he said "ocean"
Deep cuts to a girl's leg who was said to be in the shower at the time

All, add up to a very suspicious death of a small child.

JMO

7 interesting items you rank as suspicious, MyBelle. It was a horrific death for a small child to experience. The setting does not seem to fit the explanation of a fall from the second floor....over the railing with his scooter....uttering the dog's name even tho he is unresponsive....and then there is the matter of the chandelier.

I'm sure someone has said this, but there is a big difference in my mind between accusing RZ of murder and accusing her of adding facts to an accident scenario to make herself and/or her sister seem less at fault for the accident. My personal (extremely tentative) opinion is that Max died by accident in a manner in which RZ felt she or her sister might be blamed, so she added the scooter, the "Ocean" whisper, etc. to create a substitute story that would not cast blame on her or XZ. Not that RZ or XZ were necessarily at fault, but perhaps RZ's experience of JS and/or DS was such that she anticipated that they would be seeking out someone to blame.

AZlawyer, this may be termed as staging: "adding facts to an accident scenario" to make herself and/or her sister seem less at fault for the accident." Why does any who is innocent revert to staging an accident involving a 6yo child's fatal injuries?

This article from Newsweek gives us more concrete information about when G & E left for the airport that morning:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

My opinion only

 

[Jessica2012]

I agree. IMO, another scenario: If he suffered a cardiac arrest before he fell, he would have been unconscious when he went over the railing, thus unable to break the fall with his hands. So yes, I can see how that could be a possibility. Just trying to think outside the box.
:twocents:

I have also thought about this possibility. If Maxie was hit hard in the chest/kicked in the chest leading to a cardiac arrest before the fall this may explain the massive amount of oxygen loss he suffered when he reached the first hospital. My opinion only.

 

[Zoot]

I agree. IMO, another scenario: If he suffered a cardiac arrest before he fell, he would have been unconscious when he went over the railing, thus unable to break the fall with his hands. So yes, I can see how that could be a possibility. Just trying to think outside the box.
:twocents:

It is an interesting thought. However, cardiac arrest is rare in children and is usually secondary to some cardiac abnormality. AR confirmed Maxie's heart was healthy. He did have a low grade systolic murmur. A lot of young children have benign murmurs which usually resolve by age of 6. I think that's why he was referred to cardiology for work up just few months before, because he was 6 yo and murmur was still present.

 

[inthedark14]

I have also thought about this possibility. If Maxie was hit hard in the chest/kicked in the chest leading to a cardiac arrest before the fall this may explain the massive amount of oxygen loss he suffered when he reached the first hospital. My opinion only.

Certainly there would have been some physical evidence on his body of that?

 

[bourne]

I agree. IMO, another scenario: If he suffered a cardiac arrest before he fell, he would have been unconscious when he went over the railing, thus unable to break the fall with his hands. So yes, I can see how that could be a possibility. Just trying to think outside the box.
:twocents:

I don't necessarily agree. Are people saying that because they presumed Max did not use his hands to break his fall, that that automatically means he was "unconscious" before the fall?

I don't get that. There are certainly falls that happen so quickly that one did not anticipate and therefore cannot sufficiently PREPARE themselves by using their hands to minimize injuries or do the pre-emptive "tuck and roll" blocks. Also, there are falls in which the ANGLE one's body falls is such it doesn't allow for preventive protection of oneself. Plus, when a person is young like a 6-year-old, they do not necessarily KNOW how to protect their heads first. Perhaps Max did try to stop the fall but his body was in such an angle he couldn't...

So I don't think Max need have been unconscious prior to the fall.

 

[Carioca]

I don't necessarily agree. Are people saying that because they presumed Max did not use his hands to break his fall, that that automatically means he was "unconscious" before the fall?

I don't get that. There are certainly falls that happen so quickly that one did not anticipate and therefore cannot sufficiently PREPARE themselves by using their hands to minimize injuries or do the pre-emptive "tuck and roll" blocks. Also, there are falls in which the ANGLE one's body falls is such it doesn't allow for preventive protection of oneself. Plus, when a person is young like a 6-year-old, they do not necessarily KNOW how to protect their heads first. Perhaps Max did try to stop the fall but his body was in such an angle he couldn't...

So I don't think Max need have been unconscious prior to the fall.

Good point bourne! You are absolutely right. Also, if a young child were holding on to something at the time of the fall...

 

[DeDee]

I respectfully disagree with this. It totally depends on how practiced a scooter rider Max was. I have seen many children jump their scooters, similar to skateboarders. Now... I will also say that I would be surprised to hear that Max, a 6-year old, was that experienced at riding his scooter.

But, (and this is speculation only) if Max was riding his scooter and he was going pretty fast and never intended to hit that railing, it is possible that he held on to the scooter, taking it over the railing with him. It may have been the scooter that hit the chandalier?

How does the volicity explain the scratches on his back? I didn't follow that in your analysis. I did find the info in the autopsy report and found it pretty interesting. I couldn't figure out how those scratches were made? A bit puzzling.....

Salem

As his mother, DS, explained, Maxie was playing soccer with boys older than his own age. I would venture to say that Maxie was more skilled at playing soccer than he was performing dare-devilish scooter lifts over second level stair rails.

The scooter landing on MS's body has always been suspicious in my mind. Also, given the AR, Maxie murmuring of the name Ocean before becoming immediately unresponsive is also suspect esp. since MS was cyanotic and in cardiac arrest when Officer Erhard arrived two minutes after XZ called 911. Within 2 minutes, Maxie was already ashen, unresponsive, and without a pulse bc he had no heartbeat. To the Officer, he did not appear to be breathing and without air his brain began to become necrotic as pg5 of the autopsy indicates. Another formal report has it written that Maxie was without oxygen resuscitation for 25-30 minutes.

Hi greenpalm, Maybe I'm dumb, but I'm not getting it. His feet were pointed toward the back wall. He falls forward face first with the point of impact on high forehead, then the rest of him lands with his body and face coming in complete contact with the floor. So where is the head snap? He'd have to have flipped over with his feet towards the front door or whatever is opposite from the alcove wall. Ah heck, even then I still can't see it. snipped smile

A forehead landing projection that injures the neck as the rest of the body follows is the most likely to my line of thinking. The sheriff's office has a depiction on their website which clearly demonstrates a foot first landing. Their claim is that the neck was injured, via hypertension, on the rail leading to the main landing. Notice also in their rendition that Maxie lands facedown but we know Maxie was face-up when EMT arrived. We also know that Maxie had over 24 abrasions on his face, neck and back.
The depiction also imitates Maxie as grasping the chandelier yet there is absolutely no indication Maxie's body touched the chandelier other than it sitting beside him when EMT arrived. XZ was the one injured by the chandelier. RZN may have been injured by it, too.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms01.jpg

Search warrants were expeditiously requested in response to the CPS/CPD investigation. Experiencing over 25 child abuse investigations, CPD Officer Adkins described for the judge why the Ocean Blvd search warrants were warranted by explaining Dr. Peterson's LE interview revealed that after four days of tests in Rady's PICU, a cause had not been determined for the cardiac arrest Maxie suffered. For 4 days. This could mean that the family was also aware of his suffocation suspicions concerning Maxie's cardiac arrest.

http://websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18784&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1316730318

Officer Adkins sought a search warrant on July 15, the day after RZN is found in the backyard of the mansion, on the basis of Maxie being possibly suffocated on July 11.

 

[DeDee]

Graphic picture warning:

Graphic picture warning:
http://www.maxshacknai.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Maxie1.jpg

I read Maxie's autopsy report while Maxie's PICU photo was open to compare each wound the ME identified. This sweet child's body took a beating as well-noted in the AR.

~ I am a little confused here myself...
They were treating a traumatic brain injury here???
It says "cerebral edema (brain swelling) rotational artifact (a "blip" on the CT) and possible C-5 abnormality...

C-5 refers to both the spine and cord...giving the suspected location of the injury it's at the 5th cervical vertibra...

pg 2 2nd paragraph
"He was found to have head trauma and transferred to Rady's..."
pg 4
He had a frontal and vertex skull fracture..."

"He had non reactive pupils and decordicated posturing..." - that IMO is more from a brain injury not a spinal one... a C-5 injury could be in addition to a traumatic brain injury but in and of itself would not cause non reactive pupils and posturing....

Frontal skull fracture... he HAD to land on his forehead!

sad skills with trying to show what I mean but...
Say the black area is the floor....
and his forehead hit first his body would have bent to cause the
trauma...
View attachment 26890

moo

Maxie did display rigid decorticated posturing upon arrival at Rady's. Also, the 25-30 minute time lapse without oxygen produced necrotic activity that could not be overcome. Sadly, I concur with your exhibit that Maxie hit the floor exactly how you have his figure depicted here View attachment 26890

imo