McCanns launch new appeal

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Oh i disagree..things are coming out about the case all the time..and the point of this forum..is to discuss them i believe ;)
Where is your evidence Isabella! You haven't posted any!!

You post a lot of accusations against Madeleines parents but for some reason no "evidence." :waitasec:
 
And as well, assuming that anyone who doesn't believe the McCanns, must, ergo, know the McCanns and not like them, and therefore have a reason to not believe them--

1) That argument concludes that there exist people who know the McCanns personally and who deduce from their personal experience of the McCanns, that they must not be telling the entire truth about that night. I don't think you want to go there, but it's your theory to defend.

2) It implies as well that no one can have a logical reaction to the McCanns based on their previous actions. One doesn't have to know anyone personally to judge their actions as a) responsible or rational and thereby, worthy of investing further trust in the person(s)' actions, or b) not rational, not defensible, and thereby, evidence that further actions or words should be examined carefully.
Texana how many posters have you noticed that have inferred I either must know, be related too, or work for the McCanns because I believe them.

At least half a dozen including Tony Bennett.

:waitasec: I expect you didn't notice. :)
 
Critically...with all the detctives that have been hired..and a 3 mill pound fund almost empty...and theres no evidence of a abduction..

Fancy that :rolleyes:

:hand:
By your own admission, the Pj;s haven't considered it an abduction. One cannot find what one is not looking for, can one? Fancy that, if you will!
 
Color and bolding mine.

I am so thankful to not be drinking some beverage when I read this.

Do you, honestly believe that if indeed Madeleine was abducted, that this criminal sits around making posts to an American crime forum?

At a forum where an email other than the "nothing needed to get free email" address is required for a member? (thus ensuring a permanent internet address is available backed up by other data.)

As if they needed to convince anyone that the McCanns are guilty to avoid detection themselves?

As if, having successfully avoided any sightings of Madeleine, any evidence of themselves at the crime scene, any attention from Metado or any other official law enforcement agency, an abductor would then feel the need to sit around making posts to convince people that the McCanns are guilty. For what reason in the vast universe would anyone find that rational or necessary? "Hey, I've escaped detection after abducting this child, so I'll now convince people who have no power whatsoever in any courts, that the McCanns were guilty!"

And as well, assuming that anyone who doesn't believe the McCanns, must, ergo, know the McCanns and not like them, and therefore have a reason to not believe them--

1) That argument concludes that there exist people who know the McCanns personally and who deduce from their personal experience of the McCanns, that they must not be telling the entire truth about that night. I don't think you want to go there, but it's your theory to defend.

2) It implies as well that no one can have a logical reaction to the McCanns based on their previous actions. One doesn't have to know anyone personally to judge their actions as a) responsible or rational and thereby, worthy of investing further trust in the person(s)' actions, or b) not rational, not defensible, and thereby, evidence that further actions or words should be examined carefully.

Isabella might disagree with you: (bolding mine)

Oh i disagree..things are coming out about the case all the time..and the point of this forum..is to discuss them i believe ;)
 
Oh, and as a side note to Daffodil, the term "Mexican stand-off" is considered in these parts (closer to Mexico itself) as racially insenstive, politically incorrect, and rather offensive. Particularly when no Mexicans, Argentinians, Columbians, or other residents of Central or South American are involved.

Perhaps there is a corresponding term that is strictly British in history (and one not invoking any colonial overtones) that you could substitute instead. I understand, of course, the use of the term. Having only come into a more diverse society in the past two or three decades,( as opposed to two or three hundred years or even more), it is perhaps more difficult to be aware of how certain terms can be perceived.

WOW, of all the things to pick on, I'm amused...


For Daffodil...so you won't get in trouble, I have collected some statistics for you...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You may want to use the term(s) No-win situation or Stalemate so so as to avoid conflict. Or, you can use my personal favorite Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) which is totally applicable in this case.

I think the reason for the sensitivity to the widely used phrase of Mexican Standoff may be the population of Hispanics where she lives...as opposed to the "close proximity" to Mexico.



U.S. and Texas Population by Ethnicity, 2006
Ethnicity[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Percent of Texas Population[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Percent of U.S. Population[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
White[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
48.3%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
66.4%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Hispanic[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
36.0%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
14.8%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Black[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
11.4%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
12.3%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Other[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
5.0%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
6.6%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Source: U.S. Census Bureau.


Mexican standoff
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[FONT=&quot]Mexican standoff is a strategic deadlock or impasse, in which no party can act in a way that ensures victory. Origins[/FONT]
The phrase came into usage during the late 19th century. Originally a derogatory reference to perceived Mexican political indecision,[1] it has come to refer to any impasse, regardless of the participants or the presence of arms.
In popular culture
In popular culture, the Mexican standoff is often portrayed as two (or more) opponents with weapons aimed at each other,[2] such that each opponent feels equally threatened and does not believe he can strike first without endangering his own life; not only does any initial shot decisively destroy the unstable equilibrium of multiple deterrence, shooting any one person takes one's aim away from the other opponent. [3][4]
[FONT=&quot]The Mexican standoff has been used in many film genres such as spaghetti westerns or action films. Famous cinematic examples can be seen in the 1960s classics The Good, The Bad And The Ugly or Once Upon a Time in the West, as well modern movies like City on Fire, Die Hard or Reservoir Dogs and at the end of Enemy of the State.[/FONT]
 
WOW, of all the things to pick on, I'm amused...


For Daffodil...so you won't get in trouble, I have collected some statistics for you...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You may want to use the term(s) No-win situation or Stalemate so so as to avoid conflict. Or, you can use my personal favorite Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) which is totally applicable in this case.

I think the reason for the sensitivity to the widely used phrase of Mexican Standoff may be the population of Hispanics where she lives...as opposed to the "close proximity" to Mexico.



U.S. and Texas Population by Ethnicity, 2006
Ethnicity[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Percent of Texas Population[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Percent of U.S. Population[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
White[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
48.3%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
66.4%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Hispanic[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
36.0%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
14.8%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Black[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
11.4%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
12.3%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Other[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
5.0%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
6.6%[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Source: U.S. Census Bureau.


Mexican standoff
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[FONT=&quot]Mexican standoff is a strategic deadlock or impasse, in which no party can act in a way that ensures victory. Origins[/FONT]
The phrase came into usage during the late 19th century. Originally a derogatory reference to perceived Mexican political indecision,[1] it has come to refer to any impasse, regardless of the participants or the presence of arms.
In popular culture
In popular culture, the Mexican standoff is often portrayed as two (or more) opponents with weapons aimed at each other,[2] such that each opponent feels equally threatened and does not believe he can strike first without endangering his own life; not only does any initial shot decisively destroy the unstable equilibrium of multiple deterrence, shooting any one person takes one's aim away from the other opponent. [3][4]
[FONT=&quot]The Mexican standoff has been used in many film genres such as spaghetti westerns or action films. Famous cinematic examples can be seen in the 1960s classics The Good, The Bad And The Ugly or Once Upon a Time in the West, as well modern movies like City on Fire, Die Hard or Reservoir Dogs and at the end of Enemy of the State.[/FONT]

Indeed, I'm amazed you are amused by this.

One must find edification and education where ever one can, I think. I am sure Daffodil appreciates the opportunity for global enlightenment, as indeed, I would under the same circumstances.

And a side note: The early settlers of Texas were both Mexican (Spanish descendants) who were called Texians, and Anglo-Americans.

As a side note as well, I am a sixth-generation Texan.

And now, back to our originally scheduled discussion of Madeleine McCann.
 
Hi Scandi. As I see it, the only thing we know for certain is that she was taken from the flat and without concrete evidence that she was dead at the time, I believe that would be abduction until proven otherwise. Of course some people might believe she wandered off herself, but even then, her ultimate disappearance suggests that she must have been taken by whomever found her.

There is not one shred of doubt in my mind that she was abducted as her parents have claimed she was. Now whilst I have been a long term fencesitter in the Ramsey case, I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on the Ramseys being innocent. I concede that the Ramseys had means and opportunity to murder their daughter even if I think it's unlikely they did so. As I see it, the McCanns had neither means nor opportunity to murder their daughter and then dispose of her body.

Everything the McCanns have done speaks to me of their non-involvement. From their remaining at the resort for four months to their desperate trip to see the Pope.

I think this case will be solved when someone speaks out. It might take a relationship to break down for that to happen.


I'm afraid you begin with an incorrect premise which results in the rest of your thinking being fatally flawed.

You say 'the only thing we know for certain is that she was taken from the flat and without concrete evidence that she was dead at the time, I believe that would be abduction until proven otherwise'. Your belief is based on an assumption that undermines it.

You use the word 'taken' to infer that this was by a person other than the McCanns or their friends. There is no evidence that this is the case, any more than there is (apart from a great deal of circumstantial evidence) any evidence that can be used to safely prosecute the McCanns and their friends.

In fact the only evidential certainties in this case are that the McCanns did not take adequate care of their children and have sought to protect themselves. The fact that she is no longer in their care is evidence of inadequate care, whatever arguments they seek to make to reduce culpability - which is a stance they took immediately.

It is this stance and the immediate and consistant claim that she was abducted which creates the foundation for suspicion. Until they accept publically that abduction is just one possibility amongst others, any logical thinking right minded person (legally and historically referred to as 'the man on the clapham omnibus') will continue to question the assumption.

Their 'desperate trip' was too soon to be considered as genuine, but not too soon to be considered to be a funeral service. Where you get your view that they had no means or opportunity escapes me. How can you know that? Where you there? Have you not absorbed any of the information surrounding the case? There is no evidnce that madeleine was alive for at least an entire day before the claim she had been abducted was made.

I read with interest your statement and have recorded it and filed it along with others i have found in various forums. I beleive that your views are valid in that they are revealing. If someone could come up with some solid logical evidence of why and how Madeleine could have been abducted, I for one will definately examine it.

The one person who has provided evidence of abduction found herself exposed as having been more than a little inventive, and then found her timing contradicted by the one person who ought to have supported her - Gerald McCann! In writing on his blog he said he saw Madeleine at 21:15. Exactly the same time as Jane Tanner, in her interview on Panorama, claimed she saw 'the abductor'.

This is incontravertable evidence than Gerald McCann realised that the story of Jane Tanner was doing damage and needed to be undermined. Not the thinking of a distraught parent desperate to find his daughter and convinced that she was abducted, is it?

someone earlier posted that there was a 'stand off' - claiming that the idea of an abductor held equal weight to other theories. In my opinion such evidence as their is is in no way equally balanced. The abduction theory is based on emotinal assumptions and refuses to accept any other theory as in any way possible. It allows no consideration of detail of the days prior to the McCanns registering their claim that madeleine had 'vanished'.

In my view, there may have been an abduction, but once that theory has been considered and no evidence to support it found, other theories must be considered and pursued every bit as aggresively as uncontroleld media backed and intangable 'searches'.

Lets not forget, Gerry was indeed desperately searching very soon after Madeleine vanished, but he was searching the INTERNET!!! Illogical - and remember, this guy is, theoretically, a logical thinking intelligent person.
 
I'm afraid you begin with an incorrect premise which results in the rest of your thinking being fatally flawed.

The fatal flaw is listed below where you say incontrovertible.

The one person who has provided evidence of abduction found herself exposed as having been more than a little inventive, and then found her timing contradicted by the one person who ought to have supported her - Gerald McCann! In writing on his blog he said he saw Madeleine at 21:15. Exactly the same time as Jane Tanner, in her interview on Panorama, claimed she saw 'the abductor'.

This is incontrovertible evidence than Gerald McCann realised that the story of Jane Tanner was doing damage and needed to be undermined. Not the thinking of a distraught parent desperate to find his daughter and convinced that she was abducted, is it?

Two accountings of a scenario by two separate people who believe what they saw to be the truth is not "incontrovertible" evidence of anything sinister, at least not by my definition of the word.
 
Beginning with a set conclusion (Madeleine was abducted) is illogical.

Madeleine is missing, what happened to her? is a rational premise to start with.

Jane's account being directly contradicted by Gerry on his blog is concerning. They cannot both be right. If Jane is wrong about the time, then why is she wrong? If Gerry's account is wrong, why is that so?

And why would anyone's account differ so much if they indeed, wrote their timeline that night on the sticker book?
 
The fatal flaw is listed below where you say incontrovertible.



Two accountings of a scenario by two separate people who believe what they saw to be the truth is not "incontrovertible" evidence of anything sinister, at least not by my definition of the word.

Again you are making assumptions or perhaps seeking to divert the debate?

The definition of the word is not in question. Once again, your statement is.

These were not two independant accounts.

Gerry McCann knew when he made his blog that Jane Tanner had said on Panorama (some weeks before Gerry posted the blog) that she had seen the 'abductor' at 9:15 PM. Despite this he said that he had looked down on madeleine at 9:15 PM. In short, the choices are these:-

McCann had not heard or read Jane Tanners account, or,
McCann had not noted the time she said she saw the abductor, or,
McCann thought it wasnt important enough for him to make sure he posted in public information which would contradict the sighting.

It is incontrovertible that the two accounts were made in a serial manner, the second by someone who is hardly likely to have made a mistaken statement about such a vital time.

My conclusion is that it was a deliberate act of contradiction, the question we need to apply our thoughts to is, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT?
 
Beginning with a set conclusion (Madeleine was abducted) is illogical.

Madeleine is missing, what happened to her? is a rational premise to start with.

Jane's account being directly contradicted by Gerry on his blog is concerning. They cannot both be right. If Jane is wrong about the time, then why is she wrong? If Gerry's account is wrong, why is that so?

And why would anyone's account differ so much if they indeed, wrote their timeline that night on the sticker book?

The timing was changed. Gerry didnt say 9:15 PM at first. He said this when Jane Tanners story began to fall apart (as the pictures of the abductor began to become almost photographic!).

I think his lawyers realised that Tanner was the weak area and Gerry had to distance himself. The problem is, when you employ lawyers and use them with a media mouthpiece, you are using techniques which are incompatable.

The public do not consider things in a 'legal' manner. Legal facts and legal arguments do not sit well in the public arena. For example, the legal position of 'innocent until proven guilty' is used by pro-McCanns all the time. But it belongs in the courtroom, not in an investgation and not in the public arena.

Look carefully at what the McCanns say and the way they say it - all legally shaped to maintain their protection.

Thats why they say they regret that they werent with her when she was taken and not that they regret leaving her alone.
 
The timing was changed. Gerry didnt say 9:15 PM at first. He said this when Jane Tanners story began to fall apart (as the pictures of the abductor began to become almost photographic!).

I think his lawyers realised that Tanner was the weak area and Gerry had to distance himself. The problem is, when you employ lawyers and use them with a media mouthpiece, you are using techniques which are incompatable.

The public do not consider things in a 'legal' manner. Legal facts and legal arguments do not sit well in the public arena. For example, the legal position of 'innocent until proven guilty' is used by pro-McCanns all the time. But it belongs in the courtroom, not in an investgation and not in the public arena.

Look carefully at what the McCanns say and the way they say it - all legally shaped to maintain their protection.

Thats why they say they regret that they werent with her when she was taken and not that they regret leaving her alone.

Exactly. I think you are on to something big by noticing this little detail of the timing.

Also, excellent point in that no one is considered innocent during an investigation.

And yes, thanks also for bringing up the curious phrasing the McCanns used in their "regret" statement.

Nicely said, Refugee. :blowkiss:
 
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