ME - Lewiston, Mass Shooting, Multiple Scenes, 18 killed *shooter found dead* Oct 2023 #2

[MyBelle]

General Gun Violence/Gun Control

Hi All, Tricia has asked us to open up a discussion about gun violence, as clearly, there is a problem with gun violence, especially in the United States. In many of the cases that come to Websleuths, gun violence is the cause, and we don't/can't allow general gun violence/control discussion...

www.websleuths.com

Could the threads be merged? President Biden is now calling for a federal ban of the weapon used to slaughter the mass-shooting victims in Lewiston.
JMO

Biden questions 'who the hell needs' high capacity assault weapons in wake of Maine shootings

The comments were Biden’s first public remarks on gun violence following the deadly shootings this week in Lewiston, Maine.

www.nbcnews.com

In a statement Thursday, Biden urged congressional Republicans to work with Democrats to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, to enact universal background checks, to require safe storage of guns, and to suspend gun manufacturers’ “immunity from liability.”

“This is the very least we owe every American who will now bear the scars — physical and mental — of this latest attack,” Biden said in the statement.


JMO

 

[ifimmurderedjoedidit]

Hope this isn’t a repeat… CNN reporting that in Sept someone with the Maine national guard called the local Sheriff with concerns that Card “would snap”. Deputies went to the house, called for backup, left without making contact. Local authorities spoke with Ryan, the brother, about removing access to weapons in the house.

https://www.cnn.com/maine-shooting-robert-card-investigation/index.html

 

[Charlot123]

His sister-in-law told The Daily Beast Card claimed that new hearing aids allowed him to hear people at Schemengees Bar & Grille ‘bashing’ him.

The bar was the scene of the second shooting and had been hosting a cornhole tournament for the ‘tight-knit’ deaf community, which he had also competed in.

Maine gunman 'may have been targeting deaf friends in revenge attack'

Sources said Card’s family has been giving officers an insight into the mind of what is said to be a deeply troubled person.

metro.co.uk

I wonder if his hearing loss was due to shooting?

I liked going to the rifle range but no headphones could block the noise. After two visits, I said I won’t do it anymore. My personal feeling - no headphones can protect one from the noise, and hearing loss is inevitable with time x exposure.

 

[Charlot123]

If I have a family member showing signs of mental instability, I'll alert LE to seize his guns so he can't hurt himself or anyone else. It's the entire point of red flag laws.

JMO

That’s the problem, you can alert but you can’t check what they did. Or, LE can’t always be aware of all the guns you have.

 

[MyBelle]

Hope this isn’t a repeat… CNN reporting that in Sept someone with the Maine national guard called the local Sheriff with concerns that Card “would snap”. Deputies went to the house, called for backup, left without making contact. Local authorities spoke with Ryan, the brother, about removing access to weapons in the house.

https://www.cnn.com/maine-shooting-robert-card-investigation/index.html

This is the first I've seen of this link so thanks for it! My issue has always been with the easy access to assault-type weapons by those who are known to be emotionally unstable. Why on earth would his brother tell LE the family would secure his weapons and then fail to do so? I can't begin to fathom the heartbreak the community is experiencing.
JMO

From your link:
The following day, the Sagadahoc officer spoke with the shooter’s brother, who warned him that the man would likely be armed if he did answer the door.

“I was later contacted by [the brother,] he told me that between him and his father they would work to ensure that [the man] does not have access to any firearms. They have a way to secure his weapons,” the source quoted from a welfare check report.

The responding police officer said he told the brother that the intention was to make sure his sibling did not hurt himself or others. He said his department would help to facilitate a mental health evaluation if needed.

 

[Charlot123]

*I found this article (BBC: All Things Considered) talking about another mass shooter that explains her motive is really to just die no matter what it takes. Suicidal ideation is an indescribably painful way of life. They just want it over with…

Well, I think this is the dilemma. Parents and community members are crying out for solutions, and in the absence of legislation, we are trying to fortify our public buildings and, particularly, our schools. I think it's important to go back to something we talked about earlier: Mass shootings are a form of suicide, and many people are intending for it to be their final act.

In 1979, there was a shooting at Grover Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, California, and the shooter was a 16-year-old female, who at the time was asked why she committed the crime. And she famously said because she hated Mondays.

Later at her parole hearing, after spending most of her life in prison, she was asked that same question and she said, “I wanted to die. I was trying to commit suicide.” She followed up by saying that “every time I tried suicide in the previous year, I screwed it up.” She targeted the school specifically because she felt that police would shoot and kill her.

I think if you reframe mass shootings around suicide prevention, the logic of having armed guards in school and fortifying our public spaces starts to look faulty, because if people intend to die in the act, these individuals are not going to serve as a deterrent, they may even serve as an incentive and part of the plan for the shooting.

How reframing mass shootings as suicide could help prevent them

St. Paul researchers are beginning to frame mass shootings through a newer lens called “deaths of despair” that looks at them as suicides. And it’s because of this that they warn against having armed guards in schools.

www.mprnews.org

No mass shooting is suicide with a bang. They want to get known. Armed guards are not the deterrent, their goal is to kill the shooter after he kills one or two victims, so that the number does not amount to eighteen.

 

[MyBelle]

No mass shooting is suicide with a bang. They want to get known. Armed guards are not the deterrent, their goal is to kill the shooter after he kills one or two victims, so that the number does not amount to eighteen.

BBM. So very true. I sure hope LE is doing a very deep dive into Card's social media postings.

JMO

 

[LunaInvidia]

Having attempted suicide in the past as well as having been around many suicidal people and lost loved ones to suicide, it never once crossed my mind to also do the kind of damage these people do, nor do I know anyone who attempted or succeeded in going out with a whole (school, theater, concert, grocery store, parade, etc) as collateral damage. I think preventing despair is a fine ideal but, I know people in despair every day and they don't kill people. Other factors must be considered. Certainly mental health is a crisis, but I think looking for potential killers in amongst the mentally ill is looking for a yellow needle in a haystack.

 

[MyBelle]

Having attempted suicide in the past as well as having been around many suicidal people and lost loved ones to suicide, it never once crossed my mind to also do the kind of damage these people do, nor do I know anyone who attempted or succeeded in going out with a whole (school, theater, concert, grocery store, parade, etc) as collateral damage. I think preventing despair is a fine ideal but, I know people in despair every day and they don't kill people. Other factors must be considered. Certainly mental health is a crisis, but I think looking for potential killers in amongst the mentally ill is looking for a yellow needle in a haystack.

BBM. I totally agree which is why LE approached Card's brother about his emotional instability and was assured there would be no access to any weapons.

That haystack you mention is incredibly large and needed mental health resources are incredibly lacking. I expect elected leaders to address it and provide funding.

JMO

 

[sleepingmonkey]

Cops visited Maine gunman's home SIX WEEKS before massacre

Maine police were alerted weeks ago about the shooter's threats and even paid a visit to shooter Robert Card's home, but he could not be found.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ilovewings]

Hope this isn’t a repeat… CNN reporting that in Sept someone with the Maine national guard called the local Sheriff with concerns that Card “would snap”. Deputies went to the house, called for backup, left without making contact. Local authorities spoke with Ryan, the brother, about removing access to weapons in the house.

https://www.cnn.com/maine-shooting-robert-card-investigation/index.html

I was just going to post this: Another one of those "he slipped thru the cracks"--- SMH

 

[girlhasnoname]

I wonder if his hearing loss was due to shooting?

I liked going to the rifle range but no headphones could block the noise. After two visits, I said I won’t do it anymore. My personal feeling - no headphones can protect one from the noise, and hearing loss is inevitable with time x exposure.

A neighbor in the community said the family regularly shot guns on their property.

MOO

 

[Kaley Smith]

It is an ongoing investigation into why and how Card "slipped through the cracks."
JMO

Maine police were alerted weeks ago about shooter’s threats

“He slipped through the cracks,” one expert said.

www.politico.com

Jody Madeira, an Indiana University law professor who has studied gun laws, said police in one state can alert counterparts in another state that someone is a danger, and the military can do the same with local police.

She said someone dropped the ball because Card’s threats and medical evaluation should have triggered a yellow flag seizure of his guns when he returned home.

“He slipped through the cracks,” Madeira said. “There were warning signs.”

An interesting article on "at risk" for violence individuals: Firearm access by at-risk people - Blue Line

 

[Ontario Mom]

A neighbor in the community said the family regularly shot guns on their property.

MOO

That same neighbor also said the family lived on a "compound", were known as "right wing militia", and also claimed a baby was one of the victims. So... grain of salt, and all that.

 

[waldojabba]

Hope this isn’t a repeat… CNN reporting that in Sept someone with the Maine national guard called the local Sheriff with concerns that Card “would snap”. Deputies went to the house, called for backup, left without making contact. Local authorities spoke with Ryan, the brother, about removing access to weapons in the house.

https://www.cnn.com/maine-shooting-robert-card-investigation/index.html

I would say that this guy was clearly over the deep end. And who knows for how long. Who among us doesn’t open the door at their house with a handgun in their hand? Seriously in Lewiston Maine ?

Also it seems that at least on two occasions, both when with soldiers, he thought people were saying that he was pedophile. Jeezum. How do you get that in your head. Maybe LE should be looking on his computer IMO.
From the CNN article

“In the parking lot [he] accused three of them of calling him a pedophile and said he would take care of it,” it went on. “One of the soldiers who had been friends with [him] for a long time was there. [He] got in his face, shoved him, and told him to stop calling him a pedophile.”
"The man( RC) and a friend who was a soldier were driving home from a casino when he started talking about people calling him a pedophile, the National Guard statement to Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office said.
When [his friend] told him to knock it off because he was going to get into trouble talking about shooting up places and people, [he] punched him,” the statement said. “According to [the friend], [he] said he has guns and is going to shoot up the drill center at Saco and other places … [the friend] is concerned that [he] is going to snap and commit a mass shooting.”
"The information obtained by CNN describes how the Sagadahoc County sergeant called for backup, tried without success to talk to the reservist and then received disturbing details from the Maine National Guard and the shooter’s family.
The responding sergeant from the Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office was told “when [he] answers the door at his trailer, in the past he usually does so with a handgun in hand out of view from the person outside,” according to the source familiar with the welfare check report.

ALL JMO – But It seems to me he raised his hand a few times and announced I AM A TICKING TIME BOMB -but everybody seemed to pass the buck -
"The unit commander told one officer that the man no longer had any Guard weapons and arrangements had been made with his brother who had retrieved his personal firearms. The commander also reportedly told the officer that he thought it best to let the man have time to himself."
ALL JMO

 

[arielilane]

Pumpkins with victims’ names part of growing memorial outside Maine bowling alley | Click on the image to read the full story

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719011787905909205

 

[arielilane]

I wonder if his hearing loss was due to shooting?

I liked going to the rifle range but no headphones could block the noise. After two visits, I said I won’t do it anymore. My personal feeling - no headphones can protect one from the noise, and hearing loss is inevitable with time x exposure.

Wondered the same. For me, I can't imagine not wearing ear protection when cutting the grass, getting on a flight or attending a concert, to name a few. Going to a gun range, I wouldn't go there, but that's just me and all of this is my preference and moo.

 

[MyBelle]

I would say that this guy was clearly over the deep end. And who knows for how long. Who among us doesn’t open the door at their house with a handgun in their hand? Seriously in Lewiston Maine ?

Also it seems that at least on two occasions, both when with soldiers, he thought people were saying that he was pedophile. Jeezum. How do you get that in your head. Maybe LE should be looking on his computer IMO.
From the CNN article

“In the parking lot [he] accused three of them of calling him a pedophile and said he would take care of it,” it went on. “One of the soldiers who had been friends with [him] for a long time was there. [He] got in his face, shoved him, and told him to stop calling him a pedophile.”
"The man( RC) and a friend who was a soldier were driving home from a casino when he started talking about people calling him a pedophile, the National Guard statement to Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office said.
When [his friend] told him to knock it off because he was going to get into trouble talking about shooting up places and people, [he] punched him,” the statement said. “According to [the friend], [he] said he has guns and is going to shoot up the drill center at Saco and other places … [the friend] is concerned that [he] is going to snap and commit a mass shooting.”
"The information obtained by CNN describes how the Sagadahoc County sergeant called for backup, tried without success to talk to the reservist and then received disturbing details from the Maine National Guard and the shooter’s family.
The responding sergeant from the Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office was told “when [he] answers the door at his trailer, in the past he usually does so with a handgun in hand out of view from the person outside,” according to the source familiar with the welfare check report.

ALL JMO – But It seems to me he raised his hand a few times and announced I AM A TICKING TIME BOMB -but everybody seemed to pass the buck -
"The unit commander told one officer that the man no longer had any Guard weapons and arrangements had been made with his brother who had retrieved his personal firearms. The commander also reportedly told the officer that he thought it best to let the man have time to himself."
ALL JMO

BBM. I think the big question that still remains is if Card's brother had "retrieved" his personal firearms, how and when did Card get ahold of the three guns he had in his possession?

I'm glad there seems to be a much more involved investigation into this mass shooting that has left the community very traumatized, especially the children. I hadn't thought about how the "shelter in place" order may have added to their trauma. Glad to see the schools are addressing it.

JMO

Lewiston schools plan to ease students back into classrooms in wake of mass shooting

Schools in Lewiston, Maine, remained closed Monday, five days after a mass shooting that killed 18 people.

www.wmur.com

 

[waldojabba]

BBM. I think the big question that still remains is if Card's brother had "retrieved" his personal firearms, how and when did Card get ahold of the three guns he had in his possession?

I'm glad there seems to be a much more involved investigation into this mass shooting that has left the community very traumatized, especially the children. I hadn't thought about how the "shelter in place" order may have added to their trauma. Glad to see the schools are addressing it.

JMO

Lewiston schools plan to ease students back into classrooms in wake of mass shooting

Schools in Lewiston, Maine, remained closed Monday, five days after a mass shooting that killed 18 people.

www.wmur.com

IMO LE passed the buck to the brother and then LE never followed up.
It's great the brother offered to help, but LE might have wanted to accompany the brother or at the very least circled back and maybe even make sure the brother was successful and LE maybe even should have safe guarded those weapons. Did LE even know what firearms the murderer had in his possession ?
MSM I believe has reported several times that the gun he used was bought this year before his two week break for mental reasons/observation. It has been mentioned he lived on the family "compound". Seeming in a trailer on his Dad's property. It appears his brother also lived in a house on the same property (100+acres). Did he have access to the brothers house, his families weapons etc ?
In my mind this "Ticking Time Bomb" of a man, with obvious mental health issue, was dealt with in a very perfunctory manner - kid gloves if you will.
For me this is not about finding " blame" , its just I think they need a post mortem/debrief on the entire situation. What can be done better next time - what lessons can they pass along to others in hopes of prevention.
JMO

 

[DS2021]

His employer is the one who initiated getting him to the mental health facility. For whatever reason he was out in 2 weeks.

Thats a pretty standard length for a emergency pysch stay