Yes, it does because Maine's law doesn't allow family members to ask a Judge to temporarily remove weapons. It's a terrible law. I hope it is changed.
JMO
ME - Lewiston, Mass Shooting, Multiple Scenes, 18 killed *shooter found dead* Oct 2023 #2
- Thread starter MassGuy
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JMO
Even if the family calls police, Maine's law still requires the person to be in police custody AND receive a mental health evaluation before LE can go to a judge and request removal of guns.
afaik, there is nothing in any state law that prevents family from taking weapons from a family member if they feel the person is a threat to themselves or others. In this case, Card's brother told LE the weapons would be removed and secured and that satisfied LE. Sadly, it wasn't done.
JMO
Should Maine’s yellow flag law have been used to prevent Lewiston shootings? Its sponsor thinks so
Sen. Lisa Keim, R-Dixfield, says that it appears the state's so-called yellow flag law could have been used to take away Robert Card's guns, but others say the law includes too many obstacles.
www.pressherald.com
“You start breaching doors, nothing good comes from that,” Merry said, suggesting that a red flag law would be easier for law enforcement to implement. He said he did not oversee the welfare checks on Card or the decision to not pursue them further, but he believes that his deputies acted in accordance with protocol.
weepingangel
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Maine mass shooter was alive for most of massive 2-day search, autopsy suggests
The conclusion was announced a week after his body was discovered in the back of a tractor-trailer on the property of his former employer.
www.boston.com
masquerading
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Incredibly tragic loss of life. My heart goes out to all of the victims and their loved ones, which is so so many people 
I wanted to add something on the auditory hallucinations RC was having, given that he had hearing problems/was deaf(?) beforehand and was recently fitted with a hearing aid. Due to a large aspirin overdose when I was a teenager, I have permanent tinnitus (ringing in the ears). I only started having auditory hallucinations after I developed the tinnitus, and a psychiatrist told me that sometimes the human brain takes something like tinnitus and creates voices out of it because the brain doesn’t know what else to do with the constant ringing sound. These hallucinations still pop up randomly, but they’re not consistent anymore (I assume because my brain is used to the ringing now). I wonder if something like this was happening to RC, given that it seems these hallucinations began after he was fitted with hearing aids.
Hallucinations are terrifying, and they can make you hear and believe horrible things, but RC chose to hurt others rather than check himself into a facility or at the very least be open with someone in his life about what was going on. That’s where I lose sympathy.
I’m hoping all victims can rest easy, and that we can somehow figure out how to prevent these things from happening.
I wanted to add something on the auditory hallucinations RC was having, given that he had hearing problems/was deaf(?) beforehand and was recently fitted with a hearing aid. Due to a large aspirin overdose when I was a teenager, I have permanent tinnitus (ringing in the ears). I only started having auditory hallucinations after I developed the tinnitus, and a psychiatrist told me that sometimes the human brain takes something like tinnitus and creates voices out of it because the brain doesn’t know what else to do with the constant ringing sound. These hallucinations still pop up randomly, but they’re not consistent anymore (I assume because my brain is used to the ringing now). I wonder if something like this was happening to RC, given that it seems these hallucinations began after he was fitted with hearing aids.
Hallucinations are terrifying, and they can make you hear and believe horrible things, but RC chose to hurt others rather than check himself into a facility or at the very least be open with someone in his life about what was going on. That’s where I lose sympathy.
I’m hoping all victims can rest easy, and that we can somehow figure out how to prevent these things from happening.
JerseyWasHome2
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Ah, the bread delivery truck connection we had read about:
"According to a report obtained by the Portland Press Herald, the shooter told employees at the Country Kitchen Bakery, "maybe you will be the ones I snap on." The gunman was working as truck driver delivering bread at the time."
www.necn.com
"According to a report obtained by the Portland Press Herald, the shooter told employees at the Country Kitchen Bakery, "maybe you will be the ones I snap on." The gunman was working as truck driver delivering bread at the time."
Gunman in Maine mass shootings threatened workers at NH bakery days before attack
The gunman responsible for the Oct. 25 mass shootings in Lewiston, Maine, threatened workers at a New Hampshire bakery six days earlier, according to police. Police in Hudson, New Hampshire, said they received a call on Oct. 26 in the wake of the Lewiston shootings after employees at a local...
www.necn.com
ME. "Substantial Threats" Family.
First, pls note, I'm NOT addressing specifics of this tragic series of events but am speaking to the point about "family members" & this ME. statute.*
OP is correct, in the sense that a family member is not explicitly authorized under provisions of THIS statute (personally or thru counsel) to DIRECTLY ask a judge to order surrender of weapons..."
LE is the channel for making that request, contingent on a medical assessment.
Under this ME. law an LEO "may rely on information provided by a third party informant"** (could be a fam member) about ---
"the informant's recent personal observations of or conversations with a person, that the person may be mentally ill and that due to that condition the person poses a likelihood of serious harm as defined in section 3801, subsection 4‑A, paragraph A, B or C..." **
That is, LEO "may rely on" such info if LEO "confirms that the informant has reason to believe" there's a "likelihood of serious harm."***
If LEO has probable cause to believe person poses a "likelihood of serious harm" ** LEO may take the person into protective custody, deliver to medical practioner for assessment,
Then other procedures are triggered: med. assessment is submitted to judge, who makes decision "to endorse or not endorse"* it, transmits decision to LE, LE notifies person of requirement to surrender weapons, & of right to hearing w'in 14 days, etc.
IDK what the family member(s) actually said to LE in this case and will not speculate on what they told MSM about what they told LE or about the accuracy of what any reporters wrote.
Just speaking generally about some of the statute's procedural elements.
If a family member RECORDS (on cell phone?) a person's actions (brandishing firearms) & statements (threats, rants, raves, whatever) and provides that & further info to LE, imo jmo moo seems LE would find that helpful both in presenting info to med. practicioner assessing person and to judge deciding whether to endorse the med. assessment that "the person poses a likelihood of serious harm." **
Good, bad, or terrible (not giving an opinion about which), that* is the yellow flag statute the ME legislature enacted.
Like virtually any other statute on any subject, it cannot successfully address every circumstance its sponsors, supporters, or some voters & residents hoped it would. If only, sigh.
BTW, OTHER OPTIONS for concerned family?
Another poster (was that you, @BeginnerSleuther ?) noted there may be alternative civil remedies for a family member to pursue, in ME and/or some other states.
I.E., filing for a civil protective order against the weapon holder or seeking to have the person involuntarily committed to a psychiatric hospital.
________________________________________
Links to ME. statutes & some excerpts.
* §3862-A. Protection from substantial threats
Title 34-B, §3862-A: Protection from substantial threats
**"§3862. Protective custody" (When LEO may use)
"When formulating probable cause, the law enforcement officer may rely upon information provided by a 3rd-party informant if the officer confirms that the informant has reason to believe, based upon the informant's recent personal observations of or conversations with a person, that the person may be mentally ill and that due to that condition the person poses a likelihood of serious harm as defined in section 3801, subsection 4‑A, paragraph A, B or C..."
*** §3801. Definitions (re Mental Health)
"4. Likelihood of serious harm...."
"A. A substantial risk of physical harm to the person as manifested by recent threats of, or attempts at, suicide or serious self-inflicted harm;
"B. A substantial risk of physical harm to other persons as manifested by recent homicidal or violent behavior or by recent conduct placing others in reasonable fear of serious physical harm;..."
snipped for focus @MyBelle
First, pls note, I'm NOT addressing specifics of this tragic series of events but am speaking to the point about "family members" & this ME. statute.*
OP is correct, in the sense that a family member is not explicitly authorized under provisions of THIS statute (personally or thru counsel) to DIRECTLY ask a judge to order surrender of weapons..."
LE is the channel for making that request, contingent on a medical assessment.
Under this ME. law an LEO "may rely on information provided by a third party informant"** (could be a fam member) about ---
"the informant's recent personal observations of or conversations with a person, that the person may be mentally ill and that due to that condition the person poses a likelihood of serious harm as defined in section 3801, subsection 4‑A, paragraph A, B or C..." **
That is, LEO "may rely on" such info if LEO "confirms that the informant has reason to believe" there's a "likelihood of serious harm."***
If LEO has probable cause to believe person poses a "likelihood of serious harm" ** LEO may take the person into protective custody, deliver to medical practioner for assessment,
Then other procedures are triggered: med. assessment is submitted to judge, who makes decision "to endorse or not endorse"* it, transmits decision to LE, LE notifies person of requirement to surrender weapons, & of right to hearing w'in 14 days, etc.
IDK what the family member(s) actually said to LE in this case and will not speculate on what they told MSM about what they told LE or about the accuracy of what any reporters wrote.
Just speaking generally about some of the statute's procedural elements.
If a family member RECORDS (on cell phone?) a person's actions (brandishing firearms) & statements (threats, rants, raves, whatever) and provides that & further info to LE, imo jmo moo seems LE would find that helpful both in presenting info to med. practicioner assessing person and to judge deciding whether to endorse the med. assessment that "the person poses a likelihood of serious harm." **
Good, bad, or terrible (not giving an opinion about which), that* is the yellow flag statute the ME legislature enacted.
Like virtually any other statute on any subject, it cannot successfully address every circumstance its sponsors, supporters, or some voters & residents hoped it would. If only, sigh.
BTW, OTHER OPTIONS for concerned family?
Another poster (was that you, @BeginnerSleuther ?) noted there may be alternative civil remedies for a family member to pursue, in ME and/or some other states.
I.E., filing for a civil protective order against the weapon holder or seeking to have the person involuntarily committed to a psychiatric hospital.
________________________________________
Links to ME. statutes & some excerpts.
* §3862-A. Protection from substantial threats
Title 34-B, §3862-A: Protection from substantial threats
**"§3862. Protective custody" (When LEO may use)
"When formulating probable cause, the law enforcement officer may rely upon information provided by a 3rd-party informant if the officer confirms that the informant has reason to believe, based upon the informant's recent personal observations of or conversations with a person, that the person may be mentally ill and that due to that condition the person poses a likelihood of serious harm as defined in section 3801, subsection 4‑A, paragraph A, B or C..."
*** §3801. Definitions (re Mental Health)
"4. Likelihood of serious harm...."
"A. A substantial risk of physical harm to the person as manifested by recent threats of, or attempts at, suicide or serious self-inflicted harm;
"B. A substantial risk of physical harm to other persons as manifested by recent homicidal or violent behavior or by recent conduct placing others in reasonable fear of serious physical harm;..."
The bottom line is that Maine's law failed to protect the lives of the victims, which is why they are now suing. And, yet again, taxpayers will pick up the tab for government employee incompetence.
JMO
Maine shooting victims intend to SUE after officials missed red flags
The Maine mass shooting victims and their families have indicated intent to sue after officials missed red flags - as a probe is launched into the attack that left 18 people dead.
Gunman Robert Card killed 18 people and injured 13 others at a bowling alley and bar on October 25 in Lewiston in the deadliest mass shooting in Maine history.
Gov. Janet Mills and Attorney General Aaron Frey created the panel with an executive order Thursday, on the same day victims and family members signaled their intent to sue with requests to 20 state and federal agencies to preserve evidence.
@MyBelleThe bottom line is that Maine's law failed to protect the lives of the victims, which is why they are now suing. And, yet again, taxpayers will pick up the tab for government employee incompetence.
JMO
The Maine mass shooting victims and their families have signaled intent to sue after officials were slammed for missing red flags - as a probe is launched into the attack that left 18 people dead.Maine shooting victims intend to SUE after officials missed red flags
The Maine mass shooting victims and their families have indicated intent to sue after officials missed red flags - as a probe is launched into the attack that left 18 people dead.www.dailymail.co.uk
Gunman Robert Card killed 18 people and injured 13 others at a bowling alley and bar on October 25 in Lewiston in the deadliest mass shooting in Maine history.
Gov. Janet Mills and Attorney General Aaron Frey created the panel with an executive order Thursday, on the same day victims and family members signaled their intent to sue with requests to 20 state and federal agencies to preserve evidence.
Your post on ME's law said "It's a terrible law."
I replied w a link to & excerpts from the statute itself.
My post said, "First, pls note, I'm NOT addressing specifics of this tragic series of events but am speaking to... this ME. statute."(sbm)
That is all.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
LEWISTON, Maine - Maine is offering free college tuition to those wounded in the Lewiston mass shooting, as well as to the families of the people who were killed.
"Those who were physically injured and surviving family members of those killed in the Lewiston mass shooting last month will be able to attend the University of Maine System for free," school officials said in a statement Wednesday.
Maine has seven public universities, and the average cost of tuition is just over $10,000. The school system is also setting up a donation fund to cover the non-tuition college costs of anyone affected.
www.cbsnews.com
11.30.2023
"Those who were physically injured and surviving family members of those killed in the Lewiston mass shooting last month will be able to attend the University of Maine System for free," school officials said in a statement Wednesday.
Maine has seven public universities, and the average cost of tuition is just over $10,000. The school system is also setting up a donation fund to cover the non-tuition college costs of anyone affected.
Maine will give free college tuition to Lewiston mass shooting victims, families
Those hurt in the Lewiston shooting and surviving family members will be able to attend public colleges for free.
www.cbsnews.com
11.30.2023
imstilla.grandma
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“This has to stop. We think we can stop it right here,” Leroy Walker, father of one of the victims, Joe Walker, told reporters in Washington. He was joined by his daughter-in-law, Tracey Walker, now a widow.
The group met privately with each member of Maine’s congressional delegation and, later, the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Two members also attended a vigil for gun violence victims at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church that included those affected by other mass shootings.
All told, 18 people were killed and 13 wounded when a 40-year-old Army reservist opened fire on Oct. 25 at a bowling alley and at a bar. The gunman died by suicide.
Making the trip to Washington was Alan Nickerson, who survived being shot, along with the Walkers; Arthur Barnard and Kristy Strout, father and widow, respectively, of Arthur “Artie” Strout; and Elizabeth Seal, widow of Joshua Seal, one of four deaf people killed.
www.armytimes.com
The group met privately with each member of Maine’s congressional delegation and, later, the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Two members also attended a vigil for gun violence victims at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church that included those affected by other mass shootings.
All told, 18 people were killed and 13 wounded when a 40-year-old Army reservist opened fire on Oct. 25 at a bowling alley and at a bar. The gunman died by suicide.
Making the trip to Washington was Alan Nickerson, who survived being shot, along with the Walkers; Arthur Barnard and Kristy Strout, father and widow, respectively, of Arthur “Artie” Strout; and Elizabeth Seal, widow of Joshua Seal, one of four deaf people killed.
Families push for investigation of Army reservist after Maine shooting
The group went to Capitol Hill to press members of Congress to ensure that the Army fully answers questions about the gunman in the Oct. 25 shooting.
www.armytimes.com
18 people killed and 30 wounded. New mass shootings every week if not every day.“This has to stop. We think we can stop it right here,” Leroy Walker, father of one of the victims, Joe Walker, told reporters in Washington. He was joined by his daughter-in-law, Tracey Walker, now a widow.
The group met privately with each member of Maine’s congressional delegation and, later, the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Two members also attended a vigil for gun violence victims at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church that included those affected by other mass shootings.
All told, 18 people were killed and 13 wounded when a 40-year-old Army reservist opened fire on Oct. 25 at a bowling alley and at a bar. The gunman died by suicide.
Making the trip to Washington was Alan Nickerson, who survived being shot, along with the Walkers; Arthur Barnard and Kristy Strout, father and widow, respectively, of Arthur “Artie” Strout; and Elizabeth Seal, widow of Joshua Seal, one of four deaf people killed.
Families push for investigation of Army reservist after Maine shooting
The group went to Capitol Hill to press members of Congress to ensure that the Army fully answers questions about the gunman in the Oct. 25 shooting.
JerseyWasHome2
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"Brain sample from Maine gunman to be examined for injury related to Army Reserves
www.necn.com
The state's chief medical examiner wants to know if a brain injury stemming from 40-year-old Robert Card's military service could have contributed to unusual behavior he exhibited leading up to the Oct. 25 shootings at a bowling alley and at a bar in Lewiston"
Brain sample from Maine gunman to be examined for injury related to Army Reserves
A brain sample from a gunman who killed 18 people in Maine has been sent to a lab in Massachusetts to be examined for signs of injury related to his service in the Army Reserves. The office of the chief medical examiner on Monday said it wants to know if a brain injury stemming from 40-year-old...
www.necn.com
sds71
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Police in Maine feared confronting an Army reservist prior to him committing the worst mass shooting in state history would “throw a stick of dynamite on a pool of gas,” according to footage released by law enforcement.
apnews.com
Video shows police knew Maine shooter was a threat. They also felt confronting him was unsafe
Police in Maine feared that confronting an Army reservist in the weeks before he killed 18 people would have been unsafe.
apnews.com
DS2021
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Further testing of Lewiston mass shooter's brain being conducted in Boston
The testing could reveal whether Robert Card had a brain injury.
www.google.com
Bodhi
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The independent review commissioned by the Sagadahoc County Sheriff's Office concluded their actions in response to requests for mental health checks were reasonable. The report looked at protocols in place at the time and recommended changes to standardize response to such situations and provide officers with additional resources.
www.pressherald.com
Independent review says Sagadahoc deputies responded reasonably before mass shooting
Sheriff Joel Merry says the report found that his officers followed the law and their training in regard to well-being checks on mass shooter Robert Card.
www.pressherald.com
Bodhi
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The last shooting victim still hospitalized has been released. I'm glad all the survivors are recovering at home now.
www.pressherald.com
CMMC releases final patient treated in the wake of the Lewiston mass shooting
Hospital staff lined the main entrance to give a warm sendoff to the patient, whom the hospital did not identify.
www.pressherald.com
Any DV situation should include a protective order and LE removal of all guns from the home, regardless of who owns them.
If they had a record or history of violence or threats of violence, it would be warranted.
The independent review commissioned by the Sagadahoc County Sheriff's Office concluded their actions in response to requests for mental health checks were reasonable. The report looked at protocols in place at the time and recommended changes to standardize response to such situations and provide officers with additional resources.
Independent review says Sagadahoc deputies responded reasonably before mass shooting
Sheriff Joel Merry says the report found that his officers followed the law and their training in regard to well-being checks on mass shooter Robert Card.
So they left the killer alone because they feared for their own safety, but they didn't care so much about the safety of the general public? Do these LE officers who ignore early warnings realize they're likely to encounter these killers again when they do start shooting up the neighborhood? Or do they plan to stay at a safe distance so that the general public takes the brunt of the attack? Like the LE in Uvalde, TX?
I don't understand how this kind of logic works.
Well, that's another state I won't be visiting for vacation. I had really hoped to go there next fall. I hope the governors of these states realize they're going to lose a lot of tourist dollars when they turn their states in a "constitutional" shooting gallery. JMO
BeginnerSleuther
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It actually wouldn't and the law would protect their rights, IME