Peter Hamilton
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jnsngrl,yes your theory certainly has the most credence--sounds like that book is probably the best one out there--Mother Gone Bad--like that title
Members' Theories
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Hi to all- I am a new poster, but been reading a long time. Done my homework, read ALL the threads here. All of "acandyrose". Read all the books except DOI, just can't bring myself to read it (I prefer non-fiction). I hope I'll be a productive member of the board. I am fortunate to have briefly corresponded with Steve Thomas via e-mail, and he is a true gentleman. Whatever mistakes were made in the investigation, I believe he is an honest man and one of the few who really tried to get justice for a murdered child.
Here's how I feel- I definitely feel the parents are involved. I haven't decided who did what, or if they were the killers or just covered up. I feel JAR may have played a part, and I feel he WAS in Boulder, as he was purported to be. The Rs flew private, there'll be no boarding pass to check. I think there was a scream heard- and it was JBR screaming. I think she was being assaulted with the broken paintbrush while being strangled and screamed. In an instant reaction to the scream, she was hit on the head to silence her, either with the flashlight, one of the golf clubs so clearly shown in the basement, or the log grabber, plainly shown in crime scene photos in the room where the body was found, a few feet away from where JBR lay. Were any of these items (other than the wiped-clean flashlight) ever tested for JBR's hair/blood/skin? I don't believe so.
I have carefully read all the interviews. I find I can tell more about a persons' guilt by what questions their lawyers DON'T allow them to answer than by all the answers in all the interviews put together.
I'll tread softly as I learn the ropes, and I am happy to be a part of this forum.
Here's how I feel- I definitely feel the parents are involved. I haven't decided who did what, or if they were the killers or just covered up. I feel JAR may have played a part, and I feel he WAS in Boulder, as he was purported to be. The Rs flew private, there'll be no boarding pass to check. I think there was a scream heard- and it was JBR screaming. I think she was being assaulted with the broken paintbrush while being strangled and screamed. In an instant reaction to the scream, she was hit on the head to silence her, either with the flashlight, one of the golf clubs so clearly shown in the basement, or the log grabber, plainly shown in crime scene photos in the room where the body was found, a few feet away from where JBR lay. Were any of these items (other than the wiped-clean flashlight) ever tested for JBR's hair/blood/skin? I don't believe so.
I have carefully read all the interviews. I find I can tell more about a persons' guilt by what questions their lawyers DON'T allow them to answer than by all the answers in all the interviews put together.
I'll tread softly as I learn the ropes, and I am happy to be a part of this forum.
gracefuljf1505
I love life as a mommy!!!!!
looking at this case my entire life has been something I felt i had to do.....JB was my age she lived really close to me and now i am in the state where her reamains are buried.... My opinion as from someone who has looked at this alot is that JB was murdered by her family. As for motive...It couldve been anything..PR might have been jealous of all the attention JB got through the pageants..It could be a cover up of an accident...or possibly they just wanted her gone...nevertheless...I also think about how it couldve been an intruder...and yet if it was why her...did they target her or was it spur of the moment? I think about it an dif it were an intruder i think how lucky i am that it wasnt me. but that is just the opinion of a young girl...who feels as if thought she needs closure.
songline
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Just thoughts; I think if you put your child in the lime light to look like a sex kitten some perpetrator will find an opportunity. And as in the Elizabeth Smart case, the perpetrator knew the house and his way around it, and left NO finger prints. I think this case is simple but has no trail.
Since they traveled he may have known when they were due; he gathered all he may need and hid in the basement for many hours, I think he planed the escape ahead of time and knocked out a window in the basement so no one would hear his escape. When everyone was sleeping he took her into the basement with her blanket covering her, I think maybe JB recognized him he panicked. I just think he had a lot of planning time had gloves on and left no DNA, no finger prints, no trail.
Since they traveled he may have known when they were due; he gathered all he may need and hid in the basement for many hours, I think he planed the escape ahead of time and knocked out a window in the basement so no one would hear his escape. When everyone was sleeping he took her into the basement with her blanket covering her, I think maybe JB recognized him he panicked. I just think he had a lot of planning time had gloves on and left no DNA, no finger prints, no trail.
I don't know for sure what happened that night-but several things come to mind after the discovery of the body that make me leery of the Ramseys. When Jon-Benet was brought upstairs and there was screaming that she was found and to call 911, wouldn't any mother instantly without thinking. run to see what was going on-and was her child alive. But Patsy did not. I would think one would be up and running before they had time to think. The Ramsey's are definately hiding something if they did not do the crime.
Yesterday would have been JonBenet's 17th birthday. May you rest in peace, embraced in God's eternal love, JonBenet. :rose:
Before posting my theory, some general remarks:
A theory should include and explain the forensic evidence found at the crime scene. It should also exclude impossible scenarios. For example, it makes no sense to place a John Doe at the crime scene if this John Doe had an ironclad alibi which shows he was hundreds of miles away from Boulder at the time of the crime.
The most complicated issue in the JBR case for me is whether she had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse or not. For if yes, many questions will arise:
Who was her chronic sexual abuser?
Was the abuser also the killer? (not necessarily)
Was JonBenet's death connected to the chronic abuse? (not necessarily)
One gets many variables in such a scenario, and another big problem is that that even the experts seem to disagree with each other whether there was chronic sexual abuse or not. I've been wavering back and forth on this issue ever since I've been studying this case (and in a way probably always will), and although I do have a second theory where sexual abuse is taken into account, unless this has been definitely cleared up (I don't think it ever will), the most plausible theory imo is Patsy snapping and losing it in a short moment of rage because JonBenet, by whatever she did, made her mother fly off the handle.
My time line of events:
On the way home from the Whites' party, JonBenet falls asleep for a short time in the car but when the family arrives home, she wakes up again. The short sleep has recharged her "energy" batteries, and therefore she is in no mood go to bed on that night. In addition, it is Christmas, which provides additonal excitement for JonBenet.
When they get home, there is some milling around by all. Patsy goes upstairs to do some packing, but JonBenet,after going to the toilet to pee, goes downstairs again, looks at her presents in the living room and also goes into the kitchen where she sees a bowl of pineapple on the table. She grabs some with her fingers and eats it.
Some time passes, John and Burke are already in bed, but Patsy is still busy preparing for tomorrow's trip. JonBenet finally goes into her room, and although Patsy tells her quite a few times to get ready for bed, JonBenet doesn't really listen to her mother. Athough she has started undressing herself and slipped out of her back velvet pants, she runs arond in her size 4-6 underwear without putting on her pajamas.
Patsy is not in a good mood today. She feels tired, exhausted and stressed-out from always juggling too many balls at once. She has had some glasses of wine at the Whites' party, not much, but her tolerance to alcohol has decreased since the heavy chemo which she said did a number on her liver. Two trips to prepare and a pageant immediately afterward, her approaching 40th birthday, the alcohol, all are stress-factors.
Pineapple stimulates digestion, and when Patsy, increasingly exasperated because JonBenet is still not in bed, enters her room, she sees that the child has soiled her underwear. And this triggers Patsy's rage. It is the last straw which pushes her over the edge. The blood alcohol level in her body is just high enough to unleash her aggression. She furiously drags JonBenet into the bathroom, and her rough handling leaves marks on the child's body. She vigorously cleans Jon Benet, and when the child protests vehemently, maybe also hitting and kicking back at her mother, Patsy loses it completely: she either hits JonBenet with an object (I don't believe it was the flashlight), or slams her head against the bathroom sink. One brief moment where Patsy lost control, and irreparable damage was done. Patsy, in total shock over what happened, feels JonBent's head and realizes there is an indentation in the skull. JonBenet has fallen into a deep coma instantly and Patsy is convinced that she is dead.
She runs to John, and on the verge of a nervous breakdown, tells him what happened. She is absolutely hysterical about not wanting to turn herself in to the police, and John, in a mixture of pity and own self-interest, promises to cover up for her. The damage is already done, nothing will bring their daughter back to life they think, and they decide to stage a scene to save what is left from the rest of the family. After all, there is Burke to think of, and they want to spare him the horrific experience of having his mother exposed in public and go to jail because she killed his little sister in a rage.
But John doesn't want to get too involved in the staging. For he is not at all sure Patsy will get away with it, and so the less he gets involved, the better for himself should the police arrest Patsy after all.
He agrees to carry JonBenet down into the basement though. JonBenet is to be removed as far as possible from Burke who might wake up. When going downstairs, John sees a chair standing in front of the train room/hobby room door, so he goes through the adjacent door into the boiler room. He later used the chair as an element in his concocted story, suggesting an intruder put it there. Patsy tries to stage a bizarre sexual predator scenario intended to point away from the parents. She takes a paintbrush from the tote, leaving some of her jacket fibers there.
But as soon as she has inflicted a jab in JB's vagina with the pointed end, she breaks off immediately. She can't go on. She just can't do it. She also panicks because the wound bleeds, but I don't think at that moment she realizes that the child can't yet have been dead.
She frantically gets some cloth and wipes her down, and, as if to undo her deed in her own mind, decides to redress JonBenet. She runs upstairs and begs John, who has remained upstairs in case Burke wakes up, to help her. She can't put JonBenet's soiled size 4-6 Wednesday Bloomies on her again, but gets an idea: she will replace this pair with a Wednesday pair of the set which she bought for JonBenet's cousin Jenny, and hide the rest of the set somewhere. At that moment she is not aware that those other panties are far too large, she takes the Wednesday pair and the longjohns and begs her husband to put it on JonBenet because at that stage she is on the verge of dissolving into a total mess. While John is putting on the size 12-14 Bloomies on JonBenet, fibers from his shirt get transferred to the underwear.
No doubt John with his knowledge of knots would have been able to stage a better scene with the ligatures than Pasty, but John does not want to get involved in this. Part of his refusal to get more involved may also have been aggressive feelings toward Patsy - after all, it was she who killed his daughter. Imo this was also the reason why he later didn't go over to Patsy to comfort her. He was unable to fake the grieving husband convincingly, and his true feelings shone through.
Once JonBenet's body is redressed, Patsy pulls herself together a little. She realizes John won't help her further, so she has to finish this. Her eye catches the paintbrush which is still on the floor. She breaks off both the pointed and the bristled end. The pointed end was never found - I believe she crushed it with her foot and later flushed the shards down the toilet.
She ties a clumsy slip knot around the neck, tying an additional loop into the knot which serves no purpose at all. The ligature fabric is soft flat nylon, therefore the double-loop slip knot locks quite easily. With a knot already locked, one doesn't need a handle with cord around a stick. The remaining cord wrapped around the stick is done for mere staging purposes to suggest a scenario as bizarre as possible.
While she is fumbling with the cord, more fibers from her jacket end up in the wrappigs of the garrote handle.
The cord around the neck cuts off JonBenet's last oyxygen supply, and while she is lying face-down in front of the wine cellar, she finally dies, shedding post-mortem urine afterward. But Patsy is not aware of this. She thinks JonBenet died right after the head blow.
She then fashions wrist ligatures which are so loosely done that later one had already come off JonBenet's wrists when John "found" her in the basement. She also leaves a far too big space of cord between the ligatures. Maybe it was because she wanted to create a scenario suggesting sexual bondage, but maybe it was just because she had no idea how restraining ligatures are effectively tied (with the hands close together).
She puts a piece duct tape on JonBenets mouth - another element of staging.
She gets a blanket from the dryer, wraps it around the body and carries it into the wine cellar. As she carries JonBenet's body, again fibers from her jacket get transferred to the blanket. One of JonBenet's nightgowns was adhering to the blanket through static cling, but Patsy does not see this.
She goes upstairs and tells John where she put JonBenet's body.
A faked ransom note is concocted intended to later 'explain' the dead body in the basement to investigators. It should look like a 'kidnapping gone wrong'. Patsy also writes the note as a cathartic act to undo the crime in her own mind (like the CASKU experts said) - to remove herself from her deed so to speak. The ransom note is written in the kitchen which they illuminate only with the flashlight. Patsy writes the note without any help from John. Maybe he thinks she with her journalistic training would do a better job than he, but maybe he also conveys to her "you have made your bed, you must lie in it. I won't turn you in to the police but you can't expect me to do too much for you either."
Patsy's mind does not function in an analytical manner as she is writing the note. She throws everything into the mix in the frantic hope that at least something will be swallowed.
It is also Patsy who calls the police. John thinks she will make a good drama queen performance on the phone so he lets her make the call.
Patsy calls her friends over to use them as a shield between herself and the police. The more confusion there is in that house, the better. The more friends will attend to her, throwing up, breaking down, the fewer questions the police will be able to ask. Patsy knows she has nothing to fear from the threats in the note because she wrote it herself.
But Patsy has forgotten one important thing: to stage a point of entry. Hence John'a later attempt at damage control, claiming he had see the basement window open. He also tried to suggest an 'inside job' by someone who had a key to the Ramsey home (LHP for example).
John claiming that JonBenet's wrists were 'tightly bound' was damage control too. He, when 'finding' JonBent's body at 1 p.m. on Dec 26th, probably got a shock when he saw what a lousy job Patsy had done, so he claimed having tried to undo the 'tight' ligatures.
Imo nothing in this crime was premeditated. It was a rage attack followed by obstruction of justice.
JMO
Before posting my theory, some general remarks:
A theory should include and explain the forensic evidence found at the crime scene. It should also exclude impossible scenarios. For example, it makes no sense to place a John Doe at the crime scene if this John Doe had an ironclad alibi which shows he was hundreds of miles away from Boulder at the time of the crime.
The most complicated issue in the JBR case for me is whether she had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse or not. For if yes, many questions will arise:
Who was her chronic sexual abuser?
Was the abuser also the killer? (not necessarily)
Was JonBenet's death connected to the chronic abuse? (not necessarily)
One gets many variables in such a scenario, and another big problem is that that even the experts seem to disagree with each other whether there was chronic sexual abuse or not. I've been wavering back and forth on this issue ever since I've been studying this case (and in a way probably always will), and although I do have a second theory where sexual abuse is taken into account, unless this has been definitely cleared up (I don't think it ever will), the most plausible theory imo is Patsy snapping and losing it in a short moment of rage because JonBenet, by whatever she did, made her mother fly off the handle.
My time line of events:
On the way home from the Whites' party, JonBenet falls asleep for a short time in the car but when the family arrives home, she wakes up again. The short sleep has recharged her "energy" batteries, and therefore she is in no mood go to bed on that night. In addition, it is Christmas, which provides additonal excitement for JonBenet.
When they get home, there is some milling around by all. Patsy goes upstairs to do some packing, but JonBenet,after going to the toilet to pee, goes downstairs again, looks at her presents in the living room and also goes into the kitchen where she sees a bowl of pineapple on the table. She grabs some with her fingers and eats it.
Some time passes, John and Burke are already in bed, but Patsy is still busy preparing for tomorrow's trip. JonBenet finally goes into her room, and although Patsy tells her quite a few times to get ready for bed, JonBenet doesn't really listen to her mother. Athough she has started undressing herself and slipped out of her back velvet pants, she runs arond in her size 4-6 underwear without putting on her pajamas.
Patsy is not in a good mood today. She feels tired, exhausted and stressed-out from always juggling too many balls at once. She has had some glasses of wine at the Whites' party, not much, but her tolerance to alcohol has decreased since the heavy chemo which she said did a number on her liver. Two trips to prepare and a pageant immediately afterward, her approaching 40th birthday, the alcohol, all are stress-factors.
Pineapple stimulates digestion, and when Patsy, increasingly exasperated because JonBenet is still not in bed, enters her room, she sees that the child has soiled her underwear. And this triggers Patsy's rage. It is the last straw which pushes her over the edge. The blood alcohol level in her body is just high enough to unleash her aggression. She furiously drags JonBenet into the bathroom, and her rough handling leaves marks on the child's body. She vigorously cleans Jon Benet, and when the child protests vehemently, maybe also hitting and kicking back at her mother, Patsy loses it completely: she either hits JonBenet with an object (I don't believe it was the flashlight), or slams her head against the bathroom sink. One brief moment where Patsy lost control, and irreparable damage was done. Patsy, in total shock over what happened, feels JonBent's head and realizes there is an indentation in the skull. JonBenet has fallen into a deep coma instantly and Patsy is convinced that she is dead.
She runs to John, and on the verge of a nervous breakdown, tells him what happened. She is absolutely hysterical about not wanting to turn herself in to the police, and John, in a mixture of pity and own self-interest, promises to cover up for her. The damage is already done, nothing will bring their daughter back to life they think, and they decide to stage a scene to save what is left from the rest of the family. After all, there is Burke to think of, and they want to spare him the horrific experience of having his mother exposed in public and go to jail because she killed his little sister in a rage.
But John doesn't want to get too involved in the staging. For he is not at all sure Patsy will get away with it, and so the less he gets involved, the better for himself should the police arrest Patsy after all.
He agrees to carry JonBenet down into the basement though. JonBenet is to be removed as far as possible from Burke who might wake up. When going downstairs, John sees a chair standing in front of the train room/hobby room door, so he goes through the adjacent door into the boiler room. He later used the chair as an element in his concocted story, suggesting an intruder put it there. Patsy tries to stage a bizarre sexual predator scenario intended to point away from the parents. She takes a paintbrush from the tote, leaving some of her jacket fibers there.
But as soon as she has inflicted a jab in JB's vagina with the pointed end, she breaks off immediately. She can't go on. She just can't do it. She also panicks because the wound bleeds, but I don't think at that moment she realizes that the child can't yet have been dead.
She frantically gets some cloth and wipes her down, and, as if to undo her deed in her own mind, decides to redress JonBenet. She runs upstairs and begs John, who has remained upstairs in case Burke wakes up, to help her. She can't put JonBenet's soiled size 4-6 Wednesday Bloomies on her again, but gets an idea: she will replace this pair with a Wednesday pair of the set which she bought for JonBenet's cousin Jenny, and hide the rest of the set somewhere. At that moment she is not aware that those other panties are far too large, she takes the Wednesday pair and the longjohns and begs her husband to put it on JonBenet because at that stage she is on the verge of dissolving into a total mess. While John is putting on the size 12-14 Bloomies on JonBenet, fibers from his shirt get transferred to the underwear.
No doubt John with his knowledge of knots would have been able to stage a better scene with the ligatures than Pasty, but John does not want to get involved in this. Part of his refusal to get more involved may also have been aggressive feelings toward Patsy - after all, it was she who killed his daughter. Imo this was also the reason why he later didn't go over to Patsy to comfort her. He was unable to fake the grieving husband convincingly, and his true feelings shone through.
Once JonBenet's body is redressed, Patsy pulls herself together a little. She realizes John won't help her further, so she has to finish this. Her eye catches the paintbrush which is still on the floor. She breaks off both the pointed and the bristled end. The pointed end was never found - I believe she crushed it with her foot and later flushed the shards down the toilet.
She ties a clumsy slip knot around the neck, tying an additional loop into the knot which serves no purpose at all. The ligature fabric is soft flat nylon, therefore the double-loop slip knot locks quite easily. With a knot already locked, one doesn't need a handle with cord around a stick. The remaining cord wrapped around the stick is done for mere staging purposes to suggest a scenario as bizarre as possible.
While she is fumbling with the cord, more fibers from her jacket end up in the wrappigs of the garrote handle.
The cord around the neck cuts off JonBenet's last oyxygen supply, and while she is lying face-down in front of the wine cellar, she finally dies, shedding post-mortem urine afterward. But Patsy is not aware of this. She thinks JonBenet died right after the head blow.
She then fashions wrist ligatures which are so loosely done that later one had already come off JonBenet's wrists when John "found" her in the basement. She also leaves a far too big space of cord between the ligatures. Maybe it was because she wanted to create a scenario suggesting sexual bondage, but maybe it was just because she had no idea how restraining ligatures are effectively tied (with the hands close together).
She puts a piece duct tape on JonBenets mouth - another element of staging.
She gets a blanket from the dryer, wraps it around the body and carries it into the wine cellar. As she carries JonBenet's body, again fibers from her jacket get transferred to the blanket. One of JonBenet's nightgowns was adhering to the blanket through static cling, but Patsy does not see this.
She goes upstairs and tells John where she put JonBenet's body.
A faked ransom note is concocted intended to later 'explain' the dead body in the basement to investigators. It should look like a 'kidnapping gone wrong'. Patsy also writes the note as a cathartic act to undo the crime in her own mind (like the CASKU experts said) - to remove herself from her deed so to speak. The ransom note is written in the kitchen which they illuminate only with the flashlight. Patsy writes the note without any help from John. Maybe he thinks she with her journalistic training would do a better job than he, but maybe he also conveys to her "you have made your bed, you must lie in it. I won't turn you in to the police but you can't expect me to do too much for you either."
Patsy's mind does not function in an analytical manner as she is writing the note. She throws everything into the mix in the frantic hope that at least something will be swallowed.
It is also Patsy who calls the police. John thinks she will make a good drama queen performance on the phone so he lets her make the call.
Patsy calls her friends over to use them as a shield between herself and the police. The more confusion there is in that house, the better. The more friends will attend to her, throwing up, breaking down, the fewer questions the police will be able to ask. Patsy knows she has nothing to fear from the threats in the note because she wrote it herself.
But Patsy has forgotten one important thing: to stage a point of entry. Hence John'a later attempt at damage control, claiming he had see the basement window open. He also tried to suggest an 'inside job' by someone who had a key to the Ramsey home (LHP for example).
John claiming that JonBenet's wrists were 'tightly bound' was damage control too. He, when 'finding' JonBent's body at 1 p.m. on Dec 26th, probably got a shock when he saw what a lousy job Patsy had done, so he claimed having tried to undo the 'tight' ligatures.
Imo nothing in this crime was premeditated. It was a rage attack followed by obstruction of justice.
JMO
JMO8778
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that's great rash...that does lead me to a question though..(and thx for bringing up that JB's birthday was yesterday !)..you mentioned the bloomies...the R's turned in another package later on.of course that one wouldn't have been the one that was opened.was there any checking done on receipts or credit cards to see if Patsy had bought 2 packages at the same time that she said she got some for JB as well? (in her reg. size)
are they implying the 'intruder' took the rest of the package with him,or that he brought that one pair with him? b/c either way that doesn't work...but I think it does prove that evidence,possibly by Pam Paugh,was removed from the house.And besides that,Patsy had already claimed ownership of the large Bloomies found on JB by saying she'd saved them for her.they can't have it both ways.
are they implying the 'intruder' took the rest of the package with him,or that he brought that one pair with him? b/c either way that doesn't work...but I think it does prove that evidence,possibly by Pam Paugh,was removed from the house.And besides that,Patsy had already claimed ownership of the large Bloomies found on JB by saying she'd saved them for her.they can't have it both ways.
coloradokares
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :woohoo:
Thanks so much CK. It is much appreciated.
Ames
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I totally agree. If one of the parents wasn't to blame, then they would have been comforting one another, instead of being in separate rooms altogether. That...in and of itself, is just plain weird....I mean, it would have been weird if they were both innocent, and had no idea who had really committed this crime against their daughter.
Thank you JMO8778 for your nice words.
Regarding the Bloomies: Good question whether Patsy's Bloomingdale purchases were checked. Does anyone know more about this?
I don't recall exactly if Patsy specifically mentioned buying a set of 4-6 Bloomies for JonBenet too (I'm going to ask poster Ames about it who has studied Patsy's interviews very thoroughly), but I do recall Patsy said she bought the larger size 12-14 set for JonBenet's elder cousin Jenny. If she bought a set for Jenny, I suppose she bought a smaller set for her daughter too (or JonBenet already had one).
Patsy said the larger set was probably kept in JonBenet's bathroom drawer together with her other underwear, BUT the police did NOT find any size 12-14 Bloomies during their house search. All underwear they found was size 4 to 6. So where were those large Bloomies? I believe the rest of the set was hidden, and if it was hidden, there must be a reason for that.
How to put it together?
- Why was the victim found in oversized Bloomies fresh out of the package despite a drawer full of panties in her own size? Was it because (like one poster argued), all the (laundered) size 4-6 underwear had traces of prior soiling on them, and the stager wanted to direct the investigators' attention away from possible soiling issues? This would make sense if a soiling accident had triggered Patsy's rage.
- the large Bloomies had 'Wednesday' on them - this points to a conscious choice. It seems to have been important to the stager of the scene that the day of the week was selected correctly.
I'm just speculating, but maybe JonBenet had been wearing her own size 4-6 Wednesday Bloomies and soiled them. Patsy then wanted to remove this piece of evidence and got the idea to replace the smaller Wednesday panties by one from the bigger set. She then hid the rest of the bigger set to create the impression that the panties put on JB were part of the (smaller) set which WAS kept in JB's drawers. Patsy may not have been aware of how big the difference in size actually was - she or John put those panties on a supine body and they many not have appeared that large since JonBenet had not been standing where one would have seen they were almost down to her knees (see poster Koldkase's avatar on FFJ from Jayelles' experiment). Patsy also may have forgotten that the police could of course compare the sizes, since it is printed on a cloth tag attached to the underwear. I believe that for the most part, Patsy's mind did not function in an analytical manner on that fatal night. How could it have - she must have been in a totally frantic state of mind. That crazy ransom note is another illustrative example.
Imo the fact that the police did NOT find the rest of the size 12 set of Bloomies in their house search is pretty damaging circumstantial evidence once more implicating the Ramseys as the stagers of the scene.
jmo
Ames
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Nowhere in any of Patsy's interviews do I recall her mentioning buying a set of 4-6 Bloomies for JB. It is my understanding that JB had already owned a set. But according to Patsy, she can't even remember if JB owned a set or not...
From Patsy's 98 Interview:
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember the
16 white panties with the printed rosebuds with the
17 words of the day on it, did that sound like
18 JonBenet's panties?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been.
20 She had a lot of 'em, so, I don't know.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: And how --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: If I saw them, I
23 might recall them.
I do remember seeing PR interviewed about the Bloomies panties. And she did say she had bought 2 packages on the trip to NYC in November. She said one set was for JBR and one set (the larger size) was for JBR's cousin Jenny, who was a few years older. Later she also mentioned that for some reason she did not state the larger size pack was opened (yeah, like for staging a murder scene) and so she just put them in with all JBR's other panties. Of course, they were NOT found among her other panties. And the pack the Rs turned over to LE was never mentioned as far as if the Wednesday pair was still in the pack. It wouldn't mean anything even if the set was complete. This was quite a while later, BTW, and slick PR could easily have gotten someone to get another set for her. LE said nearly ALL the clothes the Rs turned over seemed new or unworn.
Ames
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Do you know where you saw this interview? I had always heard that Patsy said that there were two packs, but I can't find the interview. If you know the show that you saw it on, I can find the transcript for it. Plus this contradicts..(imagine THAT)...what Patsy said in her 98 Interview, where she says that JB had lots of panties, but she can't remember if she had any white/flowered ones with the day of the week written on them. You would think that she would remember buying those...since they were not your average WALMART panties...they were from Bloomingdales....and she had gotten a pack for Jenny also, to give to her as a gift. I think that Patsy is lying about the panties..when she says that she doesn't remember if JB has any of that kind, or not.
I remember that also. Let me check ST book.
Ames
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Thanks Solace!
Glad to see you posting here Solace.
Even without knowledge of any physical evidence, if researchers new to this case will take time to read the depositions and view all the video tapes of various television shows involving the Ramseys as guests, it is easy to see what the probabilities of guilt are. Also, read the files at http://www.acandyrose.com
http://www.realsundancekid.com, and
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3 (sorry, I'm not a member there but do recommend reading their case files).
Looking at what little evidence is known to the public, while some of it may suggest the possibility of a third party (Intruder or Guest), that same evidence does not exclude John or Patsy Ramsey. For instance, the pineapple in JonBenet's upper digestive tract. Maybe John and Patsy didn't know she ate it. However, science says JonBenet ate the pineapple approximately 2-4 hours before death and that means she had access to pineapple. Since the Whites say they did not serve pineapple and since the incriminating pineapple is found in the Ramsey home sitting out on a table, obviously, that's where JonBenet got the pineapple. She may have grabbed a chunk or two on her way to bed or where ever she went after they arrived home from the Whites. The importance is that she had to be awake in order to eat that pineapple and if awake, then the Ramseys lied for they said she arrived home asleep and was carried to her bedroom by John.
Another thing is JonBenet's time of death fits with the routine followed by Patsy and JonBenet. Patsy's testimony states she normally arose at midnight and took JonBenet to the bathroom. That act fits with the probable time of death based on the autopsy report and place of death based on Steve Thomas's book. I assume Thomas didn't just randomly pick JonBenet's bathroom as the place of death but instead has evidence suggesting this as "the place."
Also, I don't know of any case where the parents refused to cooperate with authorities until four months after the fact. That is not something innocent parents do. By John's own admission, the attorneys were hired to keep him and/or Patsy out of jail. Obviously, since they had separate attorneys, they had separate interests to protect, which to me suggests one of them had something to hide. I don't buy the explanation they were only following their attorneys' advice unless their goal was protecting themselves instead of cooperating with the investigation to find JonBenet's killer.
Just my thoughts of the day.
Glad to see you posting here Solace.
Even without knowledge of any physical evidence, if researchers new to this case will take time to read the depositions and view all the video tapes of various television shows involving the Ramseys as guests, it is easy to see what the probabilities of guilt are. The files at http://www.acandyrose.com
http://www.realsundancekid.com, and
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3 (sorry, I'm not a member there but do recommend reading their case files).
Looking at what little evidence is known to the public, while some of it may suggest the possibility of a third party (Intruder or Guest), that same evidence does not exclude John or Patsy Ramsey. For instance, the pineapple in JonBenet's upper digestive tract. Maybe John and Patsy didn't know she ate it. However, science says JonBenet ate the pineapple approximately 2-4 hours before death and that means she had access to pineapple. Since the Whites say they did not serve pineapple and since the incriminating pineapple is found in the Ramsey home sitting out on a table, obviously, that's where JonBenet got the pineapple. She may have grabbed a chunk or two on her way to bed or where ever she went after they arrived home from the Whites. The importance is that she had to be awake in order to eat that pineapple and if awake, then the Ramseys lied for they said she arrived home asleep and was carried to her bedroom by John.
Another thing is JonBenet's time of death fits with the routine followed by Patsy and JonBenet. Patsy's testimony states she normally arose at midnight and took JonBenet to the bathroom. That act fits with the probable time of death based on the autopsy report and place of death based on Steve Thomas's book. I assume Thomas didn't just randomly pick JonBenet's bathroom as the place of death but instead has evidence suggesting this as "the place."
Also, I don't know of any case where the parents refused to cooperate with authorities until four months after the fact. That is not something innocent parents do. By John's own admission, the attorneys were hired to keep him and/or Patsy out of jail. Obviously, since they had separate attorneys, they had separate interests to protect, which to me suggests one of them had something to hide. I don't buy the explanation they were only following their attorneys' advice unless their goal was protecting themselves instead of cooperating with the investigation to find JonBenet's killer.
Just my thoughts of the day.
Hi yourself.
I think what you just posted is great. Your thoughts of the day are right on.
Boesp,
I especially like the fact that you brought up that the time of death fits in with the routine of Patsy and JB (her normally taking her to the bathroom at midnight).
I read this- Probably one of the files on ACandyRose. It may have been in ST's book.
I am not surprised PR later lied about the panties. She DID admit to buying them on the New York trip. Add that to the many "I can't remember"s you found, Ames!
sandraladeda
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Good day, I have a theory to run by you WSers.
I have almost always believed in PR’s guilt in the death of JBR, and that JR was only involved in the cover up. Recently, I began to consider, what if JR is the killer, and PR merely an accomplice in the cover up? I came up with a theory featuring JR as killer.
Either IDI or RDI. I do not think IDI. There is no evidence, and for a killer to remain in the house that long, there had to be some forensic evidence left behind. The degraded dna does not count to me as evidence. I am sure RDI. But which RDI? I do not believe that BR did it. I do believe that both parents participated in the cover up. In order to believe the Rs both participated in JBR’s death, I would have to believe that they (1) premeditated it, which makes no sense to me that they would do that on Christmas of all days, and on the eve of a planned early morning flight to Michigan, or (2) that they accidentally killed her; either innocently, ie. in an innocent accident, or else in the course of doing something evil to her that would come to light if they called 911. Again, if she was killed by accident, say dropped on her head coming in from the garage, it’s an obvious accident, and a parent would call 911. On the other hand, if she was killed accidentally in the middle of a sexual abuse session, again, I just don’t think JR and PR would together decide to get their jollies with JBR late on the eve of an early flight. For these reasons, I do not think JR and PR both participated in the death of JBR.
I remember not long after JBR’s death, seeing an interview with Linda Arndt, in which she described looking into JR’s eyes moments after the body had been discovered, and believing with certainty that she was looking into the cold calculating eyes of the killer (I forget her exact words)
There is evidence that JBR had been sexually abused, and I believe it was at the hands of someone in her household. It makes the most sense to me that it was someone with regular access to her, and who she is more likely to obey and “keep the secret”. My theory is that it was her father, JR. I think she was too feisty to put up with abuse by BR, and in any event, I find the notion of a 9 year old sexually abusing his sister to be highly unlikely. PR was not the abuser because if she was, she would never have taken the risk of taking JBR to the doctor so many times for irritations to her genital region. No way.
This murder was not premeditated, it just happened, and the subsequent staging was necessary to save the killer from blame.
The pineapple she consumed before her death could only have been served to her by JR, PR, or BR. I think BR would be the least likely to be able to sustain a lie about pineapple (or anything else) in the long run. The parents remained so adamant about no pineapple having been consumed, that I conclude that one was genuinely at a loss as to explain the pineapple snack, while the other was simply lying. I believe it was JR who knew JBR had eaten the pineapple. He may have allowed her to help herself, which is why the leftover dishes may have looked like a child had laid them out – the too large spoon, the mess not put away. PR would have tidied the mess up – they were leaving early the next morning, and would not have time to clean up later.
Somehow, there is either an altercation between JR and JBR, or he puts her to bed and begins some sort of sexual abuse of her. Perhaps JBR expresses a determination to stop keeping the secret, or a defiance about any continued fondling/sex play. The panty switch makes me think his escalating contact with JBR has drawn blood this time, or has caused an injury he’ll never be able to keep hidden. Maybe she calls out for mommy. Something happens which causes JR to react – either out of anger, or to silence her. I envision him angrily tossing her across the room, or onto her bed. Perhaps she lands headfirst on the flashlight, or on a dumbbell (there was discussion of dumbbells in JBR’s room on a recent thread….) and she appears either dead or at least to have a grievous head injury. What to do now? How does JR explain this? This is a moment where he has to make a choice – her or me.
He comes up with a plan to save himself from blame, and for his family to come out of this without being fingered as child abusers/murderers.
I don’t believe that JR could risk PR finding any sign of life in JBR because she would have called 911 immediately. He needed PR to believe BR had accidentally killed JBR. He finishes JBR off with strangulation, either using cords found in their home and which are later found on the body, or he strangles her then substitutes the cords later as part of the staging. There is a small amount of blood on her from the assault. He must remove the evidence, and so wipes her down and takes her soiled panties off and discards them (down the toilet? Cut into bits? Burns them to ash? Hides them in golf bag?) Being a grown man with not much insight into little girls and their panty wearing habits, he feels a need only to replace the Wednesday panties with an identical Wednesday pair, for PR’s benefit, as she may have noticed if JBR turned up in the wrong panties. He does not clue in that size 12 bloomies would be huge on little JBR. 9 year old BR would not have been detail oriented enough to take this care in changing the panties. PR would not have made this mistake. I used to think the “Potty Rage” theory had merit, but I now believe PR would not substitute the size 12s – if it really mattered to her, she would simply wash and dry the correct size 6 Wednesday pair and put them back on JBR. I also found it a stretch to fathom the degree of frustration or rage over wet pants that would compel her to snap so severely as to cause death.
JR concocts a story for Patsy that implicates BR, and suggests that, whatever has happened to JBR, she’s gone, it was an accident, and they must now do everything in their power to protect their remaining child. BR has already once been implicated in an assault on JBR (with a golf club), and who will believe that this was just another accident? JR explains to PR that BR is not fully aware of the extent to which he has harmed his sister, and therefore, they need to shield him from the knowledge of his own actions. BR cannot be implicated because he will be taken away from his parents, he didn’t mean to do it and he will be scarred for life by guilt and by any experience of the criminal justice system. With Patsy’s failing health, she could lose out on the chance to spend time with her last remaining child. PR unwittingly becomes JR’s accomplice; partly out of the shock of her angel JBR’s death, partly out of a mother’s fierce need to protect her son from accusation. She needs to depend on JR directing her actions; she surrenders her will, so to speak.
My theory is that JR intended originally to remove JBR’s body from the home, but later, either PR could not bear it, or he felt it was too great a risk to drive out of his house – what if he was seen by a neighbour? How could he explain away a nocturnal outing? Perhaps the ransom note took too long, and they felt they were out of time. He had to turn to setting up a staged sexual assault, tied hands. With rigor mortis setting in, he was not able to tie the hands in a manner that provided any true restraint, and this is why there was so much slack in the cords.
I believe JR oversaw the staging, thinking that any redirection of the police attention was helpful to their cause – to point every finger away from them. Stage a sexual assault, suggesting a sexual deviant is on the loose. Probably the staged sexual assault was done in the hopes it would also help cover his tracks from any evidence of previous sexual contact he’d had with JBR. Stage a ransom note, with clues leading to possible business related motives, and a hint of terrorism added for flavour. I think JBR’s body was stowed as far away as possible from where she really died, partly as a complete redirection of attention from the site of her death, and probably in PR’s mind, as physically far as possible away from any hint of an association with BR.
In the morning, the Rs knew they had to act as though the original plan to rise early and fly to Michigan was interrupted by the discovery of a ransom note. This is why the 911 call was placed when it was – they could not have delayed any longer without arousing suspicion.
Even in the (disputed enhanced tape) 911 recording, at the point in which JR is heard in the background saying “we are not talking to YOU!” , this angry comment, imo, is made for PR’s benefit –to demonstrate to her JR’s stress towards BR, for whom they have worked under great duress all night to protect from implication. This is why PR goes along with the lie later on that BR was still in bed at the time of the 911 call – anything said to protect BR.
PR goes along with all the lies, because she has participated all night long – in writing a ransom note, in staging a sexual crime scene. My theory is that JR made PR do the truly awful stuff – the staged penetration with her paintbrush (this is why, when interviewed later, PR has such a hard time “remembering” if this is indeed her paintbrush – she remembers all too well) and the ransom note (which really, who would it implicate in the long run of PR fails to adequately disguise her handwriting? Not JR!) PR accumulates so much after the fact guilt; she can never second guess their actions without admitting to the unimaginable. She has to entrench herself in their lies forever, relying on 2 things – the knowledge that she did it to save BR, and her belief that God forgives and her faith will sustain her.
This is another point – I cannot see JR ever going through any of this at PR’s urging. If PR had somehow killed JBR, I see JR asking 1,000 questions of PR about what happened, and I don’t think he would ever believe her that BR harmed JBR and they need to cover it up. She would never be able to convince him of the lie.
Many posters here at WS comment on the crime, stating that parents would only lie and cover up in order to protect their child, in this case, BR. I agree that the Rs appeared to be united in their stand. But I believe only one parent believed the child had committed the crime, because the other parent had told her so.
BR could not have written the ransom note – no 9 year old could. I don’t think my 14 year old could. BR would not have cared to swap in Wednesday panties. He is unlikely to have been involved in any sexual play with JBR at age 9. He did not, imo, have the strength to inflict the head bash. He could not, imo, have kept up a secret of this magnitude for all these years.
That is the theory. Your feedback is most welcome.
I have almost always believed in PR’s guilt in the death of JBR, and that JR was only involved in the cover up. Recently, I began to consider, what if JR is the killer, and PR merely an accomplice in the cover up? I came up with a theory featuring JR as killer.
Either IDI or RDI. I do not think IDI. There is no evidence, and for a killer to remain in the house that long, there had to be some forensic evidence left behind. The degraded dna does not count to me as evidence. I am sure RDI. But which RDI? I do not believe that BR did it. I do believe that both parents participated in the cover up. In order to believe the Rs both participated in JBR’s death, I would have to believe that they (1) premeditated it, which makes no sense to me that they would do that on Christmas of all days, and on the eve of a planned early morning flight to Michigan, or (2) that they accidentally killed her; either innocently, ie. in an innocent accident, or else in the course of doing something evil to her that would come to light if they called 911. Again, if she was killed by accident, say dropped on her head coming in from the garage, it’s an obvious accident, and a parent would call 911. On the other hand, if she was killed accidentally in the middle of a sexual abuse session, again, I just don’t think JR and PR would together decide to get their jollies with JBR late on the eve of an early flight. For these reasons, I do not think JR and PR both participated in the death of JBR.
I remember not long after JBR’s death, seeing an interview with Linda Arndt, in which she described looking into JR’s eyes moments after the body had been discovered, and believing with certainty that she was looking into the cold calculating eyes of the killer (I forget her exact words)
There is evidence that JBR had been sexually abused, and I believe it was at the hands of someone in her household. It makes the most sense to me that it was someone with regular access to her, and who she is more likely to obey and “keep the secret”. My theory is that it was her father, JR. I think she was too feisty to put up with abuse by BR, and in any event, I find the notion of a 9 year old sexually abusing his sister to be highly unlikely. PR was not the abuser because if she was, she would never have taken the risk of taking JBR to the doctor so many times for irritations to her genital region. No way.
This murder was not premeditated, it just happened, and the subsequent staging was necessary to save the killer from blame.
The pineapple she consumed before her death could only have been served to her by JR, PR, or BR. I think BR would be the least likely to be able to sustain a lie about pineapple (or anything else) in the long run. The parents remained so adamant about no pineapple having been consumed, that I conclude that one was genuinely at a loss as to explain the pineapple snack, while the other was simply lying. I believe it was JR who knew JBR had eaten the pineapple. He may have allowed her to help herself, which is why the leftover dishes may have looked like a child had laid them out – the too large spoon, the mess not put away. PR would have tidied the mess up – they were leaving early the next morning, and would not have time to clean up later.
Somehow, there is either an altercation between JR and JBR, or he puts her to bed and begins some sort of sexual abuse of her. Perhaps JBR expresses a determination to stop keeping the secret, or a defiance about any continued fondling/sex play. The panty switch makes me think his escalating contact with JBR has drawn blood this time, or has caused an injury he’ll never be able to keep hidden. Maybe she calls out for mommy. Something happens which causes JR to react – either out of anger, or to silence her. I envision him angrily tossing her across the room, or onto her bed. Perhaps she lands headfirst on the flashlight, or on a dumbbell (there was discussion of dumbbells in JBR’s room on a recent thread….) and she appears either dead or at least to have a grievous head injury. What to do now? How does JR explain this? This is a moment where he has to make a choice – her or me.
He comes up with a plan to save himself from blame, and for his family to come out of this without being fingered as child abusers/murderers.
I don’t believe that JR could risk PR finding any sign of life in JBR because she would have called 911 immediately. He needed PR to believe BR had accidentally killed JBR. He finishes JBR off with strangulation, either using cords found in their home and which are later found on the body, or he strangles her then substitutes the cords later as part of the staging. There is a small amount of blood on her from the assault. He must remove the evidence, and so wipes her down and takes her soiled panties off and discards them (down the toilet? Cut into bits? Burns them to ash? Hides them in golf bag?) Being a grown man with not much insight into little girls and their panty wearing habits, he feels a need only to replace the Wednesday panties with an identical Wednesday pair, for PR’s benefit, as she may have noticed if JBR turned up in the wrong panties. He does not clue in that size 12 bloomies would be huge on little JBR. 9 year old BR would not have been detail oriented enough to take this care in changing the panties. PR would not have made this mistake. I used to think the “Potty Rage” theory had merit, but I now believe PR would not substitute the size 12s – if it really mattered to her, she would simply wash and dry the correct size 6 Wednesday pair and put them back on JBR. I also found it a stretch to fathom the degree of frustration or rage over wet pants that would compel her to snap so severely as to cause death.
JR concocts a story for Patsy that implicates BR, and suggests that, whatever has happened to JBR, she’s gone, it was an accident, and they must now do everything in their power to protect their remaining child. BR has already once been implicated in an assault on JBR (with a golf club), and who will believe that this was just another accident? JR explains to PR that BR is not fully aware of the extent to which he has harmed his sister, and therefore, they need to shield him from the knowledge of his own actions. BR cannot be implicated because he will be taken away from his parents, he didn’t mean to do it and he will be scarred for life by guilt and by any experience of the criminal justice system. With Patsy’s failing health, she could lose out on the chance to spend time with her last remaining child. PR unwittingly becomes JR’s accomplice; partly out of the shock of her angel JBR’s death, partly out of a mother’s fierce need to protect her son from accusation. She needs to depend on JR directing her actions; she surrenders her will, so to speak.
My theory is that JR intended originally to remove JBR’s body from the home, but later, either PR could not bear it, or he felt it was too great a risk to drive out of his house – what if he was seen by a neighbour? How could he explain away a nocturnal outing? Perhaps the ransom note took too long, and they felt they were out of time. He had to turn to setting up a staged sexual assault, tied hands. With rigor mortis setting in, he was not able to tie the hands in a manner that provided any true restraint, and this is why there was so much slack in the cords.
I believe JR oversaw the staging, thinking that any redirection of the police attention was helpful to their cause – to point every finger away from them. Stage a sexual assault, suggesting a sexual deviant is on the loose. Probably the staged sexual assault was done in the hopes it would also help cover his tracks from any evidence of previous sexual contact he’d had with JBR. Stage a ransom note, with clues leading to possible business related motives, and a hint of terrorism added for flavour. I think JBR’s body was stowed as far away as possible from where she really died, partly as a complete redirection of attention from the site of her death, and probably in PR’s mind, as physically far as possible away from any hint of an association with BR.
In the morning, the Rs knew they had to act as though the original plan to rise early and fly to Michigan was interrupted by the discovery of a ransom note. This is why the 911 call was placed when it was – they could not have delayed any longer without arousing suspicion.
Even in the (disputed enhanced tape) 911 recording, at the point in which JR is heard in the background saying “we are not talking to YOU!” , this angry comment, imo, is made for PR’s benefit –to demonstrate to her JR’s stress towards BR, for whom they have worked under great duress all night to protect from implication. This is why PR goes along with the lie later on that BR was still in bed at the time of the 911 call – anything said to protect BR.
PR goes along with all the lies, because she has participated all night long – in writing a ransom note, in staging a sexual crime scene. My theory is that JR made PR do the truly awful stuff – the staged penetration with her paintbrush (this is why, when interviewed later, PR has such a hard time “remembering” if this is indeed her paintbrush – she remembers all too well) and the ransom note (which really, who would it implicate in the long run of PR fails to adequately disguise her handwriting? Not JR!) PR accumulates so much after the fact guilt; she can never second guess their actions without admitting to the unimaginable. She has to entrench herself in their lies forever, relying on 2 things – the knowledge that she did it to save BR, and her belief that God forgives and her faith will sustain her.
This is another point – I cannot see JR ever going through any of this at PR’s urging. If PR had somehow killed JBR, I see JR asking 1,000 questions of PR about what happened, and I don’t think he would ever believe her that BR harmed JBR and they need to cover it up. She would never be able to convince him of the lie.
Many posters here at WS comment on the crime, stating that parents would only lie and cover up in order to protect their child, in this case, BR. I agree that the Rs appeared to be united in their stand. But I believe only one parent believed the child had committed the crime, because the other parent had told her so.
BR could not have written the ransom note – no 9 year old could. I don’t think my 14 year old could. BR would not have cared to swap in Wednesday panties. He is unlikely to have been involved in any sexual play with JBR at age 9. He did not, imo, have the strength to inflict the head bash. He could not, imo, have kept up a secret of this magnitude for all these years.
That is the theory. Your feedback is most welcome.
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