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Oddly, Patsy and John were supposed to leave for Michigan on a flight leaving 6:15. They got up at @ 5 am - not sure how that was supposed to work out. None of the video or crime scene photos show that there were suitcases at the ready (especially for the kids). The one suitcase in the basement was not readied for travel.

How were they supposed to make that flight?

Then, yes, John calls his private pilot and changes destinations from Michigan to Atlanta, but then Fleet (sensing what a bad move that would be?) calls and cancels that order.

Jon Benet is found at around 1 pm. The Ramseys depart the house in separate vehicles about 2:30 pm when the police and detectives are still arriving. John Ramsey signs a consent for a visual search of the house, but does not accompany the police on that search. It's not a search warrant and despite the crime scene and the appeal to the FBI (because of the note), no search warrants were obtained. Patsy's sister stops by (the next day?) and removes many things from the house, unfettered.

Much has changed since those days. There was no Websleuths then, and MSM didn't know where to begin. Many changes to SOP in LE since then, at least in very public cases. There's no way that an ordinary family in most of Colorado would have gotten the same treatment. Nor would Alex Hunter's refusal to accept the Grand Jury's indictments be so easily accepted as an ending point for the investigation.
 
Userid,
You have not explained why JR would panic and why this would lead him to find JonBenet rather than leave her in place, hoping she was not found, there is no guarantee she would have been found.

Assuming JR never moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, i.e. she was there all the time, and that FW missed her, and JR was hoping the focus would move elsewhere so that JonBenet would not be found.

Its difficult to understand why JR would suddenly decide, Hey, I better find JonBenet?

My explanation was and still is that parents act in precisely this way when a child is dead. Presuming John knew from about 11 am that JBR was in the basement, and that she was in the basement for the same reason that so many dead kids remain in the house or very nearby (family members may murder out of rage, but they cannot treat a child casually or like trash), he was panicking the whole time. Even if he could have secretly moved her body to some other location, that would have been a very hard thing for a father to do.

If the idea that his child would be quietly decomposing while he and two other family members went off in a plane (to where? to Atlanta and then to a Disney cruise?) wasn't enough to induce panic and heartfelt confusion and angst, I don't know what would. It's possible John went to bed the night before thinking JBR was still alive, was skeptical and confused about the ransom note (and suspicious), found the body at 11 am, and from then on, was inwardly in an increasingly non-normal state, bordering on a break from reality.
 
My explanation was and still is that parents act in precisely this way when a child is dead. Presuming John knew from about 11 am that JBR was in the basement, and that she was in the basement for the same reason that so many dead kids remain in the house or very nearby (family members may murder out of rage, but they cannot treat a child casually or like trash), he was panicking the whole time. Even if he could have secretly moved her body to some other location, that would have been a very hard thing for a father to do.

If the idea that his child would be quietly decomposing while he and two other family members went off in a plane (to where? to Atlanta and then to a Disney cruise?) wasn't enough to induce panic and heartfelt confusion and angst, I don't know what would. It's possible John went to bed the night before thinking JBR was still alive, was skeptical and confused about the ransom note (and suspicious), found the body at 11 am, and from then on, was inwardly in an increasingly non-normal state, bordering on a break from reality.

I agree that he was probably panicking the whole time. I will say, I feel like this panic only intensified over time when the police weren't going anywhere and were staying in their house (particularly after the time indicated in the ransom note) -- that's when JR starting behaving erratically, trying to get a flight out of town, etc. I do think that his panic "came to a head" when he was told to search the basement with FW.

Where we might differ is that, I don't believe JR realized what happened that morning. I feel like he knew exactly what had happened the whole time. As LA has stated, he kept up a good facade at first -- he was even "cordial," according to her. His cordial demeanor makes me believe that he was initially going out of his way to be as normal (i.e. not suspicious) as possible -- it backfired of course, because it sent up a red flag for LA initially, but nevertheless.
 
Yes I have -- he panicked because he wasn't relying on having to search the basement again and because FW was with him. He couldn't try to prevent FW from searching the cellar because that would have made him look suspicious. The only time he searched the basement before being told to search it with someone else, was by himself. That's why he panicked: because FW was with him and he felt it was only a matter of time before FW found the body, as JR knew FW was familar with the cellar.

Before, you were suggesting that JBR's body was moved to the cellar; now, you're suggesting she wasn't. Which is it?

Either way, whether she was there or moved there, he panicked all the same.

Userid,
If JR is compromised because FW might find JonBenet, what does it matter who finds JonBenet then?

Why panic over the inevitable, and if JR thinks FW finding JonBenet is a done deal why not wait and see if he actually does find her?

Do not forget JR had the latter option, so that he elected to find her could hardly be based on a panic decision.

Before, you were suggesting that JBR's body was moved to the cellar; now, you're suggesting she wasn't. Which is it?
Hey, its called theorizing, its allowed.

There is nothing to suggest JR panicked, he might have done a mental cost benefit analysis and decided now was the right time to find JonBenet and use FW as a witness to that end!

If JR had tweaked the wine-cellar crime-scene in any manner on an earlier visit then rather than panic being a motivating factor, it might have been his confidence that the crime-scene had been modified which gave him the impetus to discover JonBenet.

This is what I reckoned happened.
 
Userid,
If JR is compromised because FW might find JonBenet, what does it matter who finds JonBenet then?

Why panic over the inevitable, and if JR thinks FW finding JonBenet is a done deal why not wait and see if he actually does find her?

Do not forget JR had the latter option, so that he elected to find her could hardly be based on a panic decision.


Hey, its called theorizing, its allowed.

There is nothing to suggest JR panicked, he might have done a mental cost benefit analysis and decided now was the right time to find JonBenet and use FW as a witness to that end!

If JR had tweaked the wine-cellar crime-scene in any manner on an earlier visit then rather than panic being a motivating factor, it might have been his confidence that the crime-scene had been modified which gave him the impetus to discover JonBenet.

This is what I reckoned happened.

When people panic, they're not necessarily acting rationally, obviously. That's one answer.

Secondly, JR may have wanted to get there before FW in order to taint the evidence -- which he obviously did so and then some. If you want to do a "cost benefit analysis," that one makes more sense than anything. JR knew she was going to be found, and needed to get to the body first, in order to taint both the evidence and the crime scene. This no doubt was important because, JR knew he had to (eventually, once police left and before disposing of the body) ensure that all traces of him and/or PR were removed from the body. He hadn't had a chance to do that yet -- obviously -- considering all the fiber evidence that was present on not only the body, but the duct-tape, etc.

Third, JR knew he had already searched the basement -- he put himself in the vicinity earlier that morning; he had already explained the broken window to police, etc. If he himself finds the body upon his second search, that also makes him look less suspicious than if FW found the body. Again, another "cost benefit analysis." By finding the body on his second go-around, he essentially looks less suspicious after not having found it in his first go-around. Could you imagine if FW easily found the body before JR did, how suspicious that would have looked for JR?

Theorizing is fine, but there's a difference between theorizing and moving the goal posts -- what you're doing is more like the latter.
 
Also, if JR was so confident in his staging, he wouldn't have needed to lock the cellar door and it wouldn't matter at all if anyone (police officer, etc.) found the body without him. Booking a flight out of town for his entire family displays anything but confidence.
 
There is a lot in John's conduct that morning which indicates that he was likely not involved IMO.

Consider:
  • John is the one who tells Patsy to call the police, even though the RN says not to and even though the RN provides the perfect excuse to dump the body (If anyone spotted John leaving the house, he could later tell police he was simply gathering the $118,000 and hadn't called them because the note said not to); and
  • John handed over vital evidence with implicated the Ramseys, such as the notepads (obviously not realising their importance).
If John was involved the whole thing could have been done much more effectively.

Leave the house at 6 to collect the money (dispose of the body), call the police at 10 when no call is received from the kidnapper.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's a fact that he was on the phone trying to arrange a flight for his family out of the state hours before he found the body.

Yes sorry, you are correct.
 
I'm convinced neither of the parents dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, since the remaining pairs vanished, and both parents would have known that would be an immediate red flag for BPD, given that the motive was to stage a credible crime-scene.

So there is something missing from the current BDI which links the size-12's to JonBenet's staging and the rationale for their use?

How do we explain this:
2000 Atlanta Interviews:

JR's Israeli sweater fibers found on JB's external crotch area and in the crotch of her panties.
Kolar's implicit speculation is that on Christmas Day Afternoon when Burke was searching the basement, he came across the size-12's when opening the Partially Opened Gifts, which he probably discounted, unless he told JonBenet?

So later on Christmas Day Evening when Burke needs underwear that looks like the alleged Bloomingdale Wednesday Day Of The Week that JonBenet likely wore, i.e. it was a Wednesday, he elected to return down to the basement so he could redress JonBenet in them?
Didn’t PR also state she was also in the basement wrapping Christmas presents on Christmas Day?
I believe PR knew where the package of bloomies were because she wrapped them and JR fibers are found in them.
 
When people panic, they're not necessarily acting rationally, obviously. That's one answer.

Secondly, JR may have wanted to get there before FW in order to taint the evidence -- which he obviously did so and then some. If you want to do a "cost benefit analysis," that one makes more sense than anything. JR knew she was going to be found, and needed to get to the body first, in order to taint both the evidence and the crime scene. This no doubt was important because, JR knew he had to (eventually, once police left and before disposing of the body) ensure that all traces of him and/or PR were removed from the body. He hadn't had a chance to do that yet -- obviously -- considering all the fiber evidence that was present on not only the body, but the duct-tape, etc.

Third, JR knew he had already searched the basement -- he put himself in the vicinity earlier that morning; he had already explained the broken window to police, etc. If he himself finds the body upon his second search, that also makes him look less suspicious than if FW found the body. Again, another "cost benefit analysis." By finding the body on his second go-around, he essentially looks less suspicious after not having found it in his first go-around. Could you imagine if FW easily found the body before JR did, how suspicious that would have looked for JR?

Theorizing is fine, but there's a difference between theorizing and moving the goal posts -- what you're doing is more like the latter.

Userid,
If he himself finds the body upon his second search, that also makes him look less suspicious than if FW found the body.
BBM: No, check your homicide statistics via your favorite search engine. John finding JonBenet is the basic mistake amateur stagers make all the time. The relevant statistic is the killer nearly always finds the body, allowing for exceptions, etc.

If JR is doing cost/benefit analysis he is not panicking. He is doing the exact opposite, i.e. rationalizing whatever. Check the book Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow.

Could you imagine if FW easily found the body before JR did, how suspicious that would have looked for JR?
Sure I can imagine it, if FW found JonBenet that could be put down to luck or chance, as there is no foolproof discovery procedure. It would also have meant one less factor with which to link JR to the death of JonBenet.

Theorizing is fine, but there's a difference between theorizing and moving the goal posts -- what you're doing is more like the latter.
If you say so, either alternative cannot be ruled out, that's why I cited it.

Also, if JR was so confident in his staging, he wouldn't have needed to lock the cellar door and it wouldn't matter at all if anyone (police officer, etc.) found the body without him. Booking a flight out of town for his entire family displays anything but confidence.
Depends which of the latter alternatives you are considering, i.e. one where JR does no further staging and the other where he tweaks the crime-scene, if the latter he might have misguided confidence that he has done enough to mess the crime-scene up, e.g. he was unaware that Fleet White had looked in the wine-cellar before he searched the basement, see his BPD interview. So JR's confidence may have been misplaced, but this is not the same as saying he lacked confidence. I suspect as the morning came and went his confidence just grew, because neither he or Patsy had been arrested.

Although JR might have panicked and found JonBenet for all the reasons you list. I reckon he thought Great Opportunity I'll find JonBenet, and FW can witness it with JR thinking that's less suspicious than if I find her on my own?

.
 
How do we explain this:
2000 Atlanta Interviews:

JR's Israeli sweater fibers found on JB's external crotch area and in the crotch of her panties.

Didn’t PR also state she was also in the basement wrapping Christmas presents on Christmas Day?
I believe PR knew where the package of bloomies were because she wrapped them and JR fibers are found in them.

Rain on my Parade,
You explain it as postmortem staging by the parents. This works for whatever theory you prefer, JDI with Patsy helping out, PDI with John helping out, and of course BDI with both John and Patsy cleaning JonBenet up, and depositing her somewhere in the basement?

I believe PR knew where the package of bloomies were because she wrapped them and JR fibers are found in them.
Of course she did, then she would not need to open all the Partially Opened Gifts to find the size-12's, and since she was staging she would know to put the remaining size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer so to backup her version of events?

Its one thing to suggest Patsy thought Hey, I'll put Jenny's underwear on JonBenet that will confuse investigators then for her to have the remaining size-12's removed, which suggests, as per Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview, investigators wanted to rule out any intruder bringing the size-12's into the Ramsey house.

The size-12's are obviously a red flag, which neither parent could explain away!

.
 
In the heat of the moment, one might not consider how big the underwear were.

One explanation could be that the oversized underwear were unwrapped, the appropriate day was taken out, Jonbenets underpants were put back in the packet and the packet was re-wrapped as a gift.

Perhaps it was then removed from the house as a Christmas gift by Pam Paugh?

mc88,
Well somebody removed the remaining size-12's from the house. If the case is either JDI or PDI and the use of the size-12's was premeditated, why mess it all up by removing your backup evidence, i.e. how did JonBenet ever get her hands on a Christmas Gift intended for Patsy's niece who had a waist size that dwarfed JonBenet's?

The size-12's are a bit like John finding JonBenet, someone had to decide to do it!

.
 
mc88,
Well somebody removed the remaining size-12's from the house. If the case is either JDI or PDI and the use of the size-12's was premeditated, why mess it all up by removing your backup evidence, i.e. how did JonBenet ever get her hands on a Christmas Gift intended for Patsy's niece who had a waist size that dwarfed JonBenet's?

The size-12's are a bit like John finding JonBenet, someone had to decide to do it!

.
Perhaps in PR’s purse that was draped across her arm upon leaving the house on the 26th. Or perhaps there was a plane flight out of Boulder? And then again, perhaps they were in the trash behind the Barnhill’s; as JR stated he looked out BR window on the 26th (with binoculars)?
It makes no sense that people can’t see the cover up in this case by the R’s!
 
When people panic, they're not necessarily acting rationally, obviously. That's one answer.

Secondly, JR may have wanted to get there before FW in order to taint the evidence -- which he obviously did so and then some. If you want to do a "cost benefit analysis," that one makes more sense than anything. JR knew she was going to be found, and needed to get to the body first, in order to taint both the evidence and the crime scene. This no doubt was important because, JR knew he had to (eventually, once police left and before disposing of the body) ensure that all traces of him and/or PR were removed from the body. He hadn't had a chance to do that yet -- obviously -- considering all the fiber evidence that was present on not only the body, but the duct-tape, etc.

Third, JR knew he had already searched the basement -- he put himself in the vicinity earlier that morning; he had already explained the broken window to police, etc. If he himself finds the body upon his second search, that also makes him look less suspicious than if FW found the body. Again, another "cost benefit analysis." By finding the body on his second go-around, he essentially looks less suspicious after not having found it in his first go-around. Could you imagine if FW easily found the body before JR did, how suspicious that would have looked for JR?

Theorizing is fine, but there's a difference between theorizing and moving the goal posts -- what you're doing is more like the latter.
Why didn't JR get rid of JBR's body on the the 26th? All he had to do was lock deceased JBR in his car trunk in the garage, cancel their flight with the pilot to Michigan upon "finding" the ransom note early morning, then JR drives to dispose of JBR's body someplace and returns home (JR could say he went out to look for JBR after reading the RN if caught driving so early), then PR calls police saying she found the RN. In other words, instead of hoping to get rid of the body after the police left the home, why not do it before the police were contacted? It would have been much simpler and probably turned into just another kidnapping/missing persons case if her body was never found, and the family would have been off the hook from the getgo.
 
Userid,

BBM: No, check your homicide statistics via your favorite search engine. John finding JonBenet is the basic mistake amateur stagers make all the time. The relevant statistic is the killer nearly always finds the body, allowing for exceptions, etc.

If JR is doing cost/benefit analysis he is not panicking. He is doing the exact opposite, i.e. rationalizing whatever. Check the book Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow.


Sure I can imagine it, if FW found JonBenet that could be put down to luck or chance, as there is no foolproof discovery procedure. It would also have meant one less factor with which to link JR to the death of JonBenet.


If you say so, either alternative cannot be ruled out, that's why I cited it.


Depends which of the latter alternatives you are considering, i.e. one where JR does no further staging and the other where he tweaks the crime-scene, if the latter he might have misguided confidence that he has done enough to mess the crime-scene up, e.g. he was unaware that Fleet White had looked in the wine-cellar before he searched the basement, see his BPD interview. So JR's confidence may have been misplaced, but this is not the same as saying he lacked confidence. I suspect as the morning came and went his confidence just grew, because neither he or Patsy had been arrested.

Although JR might have panicked and found JonBenet for all the reasons you list. I reckon he thought Great Opportunity I'll find JonBenet, and FW can witness it with JR thinking that's less suspicious than if I find her on my own?

.

In regard to the bolded and underlined: Exactly! That's why JR "found" it! Remember, this wasn't some professional we're talking about.

I suppose I can only speak for myself here, but I've actually panicked and done a cost-benefit analysis at the same time. The mind is racing while in a panic; many ideas flow through at once. It's not as if the brain completely shuts down while in a panic -- quite the opposite, actually, at least in my case. There are different degrees and different stages of panic.

Nothing to me implies that JR was "confident." Finding the body does not indicate confidence; it indicates desperation.
 
Rain on my Parade,
You explain it as postmortem staging by the parents. This works for whatever theory you prefer, JDI with Patsy helping out, PDI with John helping out, and of course BDI with both John and Patsy cleaning JonBenet up, and depositing her somewhere in the basement?


Of course she did, then she would not need to open all the Partially Opened Gifts to find the size-12's, and since she was staging she would know to put the remaining size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer so to backup her version of events?

Its one thing to suggest Patsy thought Hey, I'll put Jenny's underwear on JonBenet that will confuse investigators then for her to have the remaining size-12's removed, which suggests, as per Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview, investigators wanted to rule out any intruder bringing the size-12's into the Ramsey house.

The size-12's are obviously a red flag, which neither parent could explain away!

.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: if the bloomies were in the vicinity of where the staging occurred (i.e. basement), and the staging occurred after police had already arrived, this is why the bloomies were used: because they were the only option. The stager did not have access to JBR's room/drawer with all the cops/investigators around; I'm sure the first thing they did was seal off the bedroom. Not saying I completely believe this scenario, but it does explain why they would be used. Even if the staging occurred before police arrived, it would have simply been easier to use what was in the vicinity, as opposed to running all the way back upstairs -- time was of the essence, after all.

Also, an obvious reason why that particular underwear was used was because they had the day that the stagers wanted to stage the murder: Wednesday.
 
Why didn't JR get rid of JBR's body on the the 26th? All he had to do was lock deceased JBR in his car trunk in the garage, cancel their flight with the pilot to Michigan upon "finding" the ransom note early morning, then JR drives to dispose of JBR's body someplace and returns home (JR could say he went out to look for JBR after reading the RN if caught driving so early), then PR calls police saying she found the RN. In other words, instead of hoping to get rid of the body after the police left the home, why not do it before the police were contacted? It would have been much simpler and probably turned into just another kidnapping/missing persons case if her body was never found, and the family would have been off the hook from the getgo.

Because they had to make the police call before they canceled their flight. If JR canceled the flight before PR made the police call, that would have been a huge red flag. If the flight was scheduled for later that morning/early afternoon, then your scenario perhaps would have been possible, but their flight was scheduled for very early in the morning. There was zero time to get rid of the body before police arrived.
 
Because they had to make the police call before they canceled their flight. If JR canceled the flight before PR made the police call, that would have been a huge red flag. If the flight was scheduled for later that morning/early afternoon, then your scenario perhaps would have been possible, but their flight was scheduled for very early in the morning. There was zero time to get rid of the body before police arrived.

Disagree, JR could have told LE he cancelled the flight as soon as he read the RN at 5:00 am or whatever time they say it was, then he would have bought himself more time to dispose of the body, and PR could have called LE that afternoon. If JR had to explain why he went out with car before calling LE, he could have said to look for JBR and he was afraid to call LE sooner because of the warning in the RN. This scenario covers himself with the pilot and LE that he isn't a suspect.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned: if the bloomies were in the vicinity of where the staging occurred (i.e. basement), and the staging occurred after police had already arrived, this is why the bloomies were used: because they were the only option. The stager did not have access to JBR's room/drawer with all the cops/investigators around; I'm sure the first thing they did was seal off the bedroom. Not saying I completely believe this scenario, but it does explain why they would be used. Even if the staging occurred before police arrived, it would have simply been easier to use what was in the vicinity, as opposed to running all the way back upstairs -- time was of the essence, after all.

Also, an obvious reason why that particular underwear was used was because they had the day that the stagers wanted to stage the murder: Wednesday.

Userid,
January 30, 1997 Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado
Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed the Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in that area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

January 30, 1997 Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado
Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.
As per above, Coroner Meyer is suggesting JonBenet was sexually assaulted then later she was wiped down as there is no blood on the pubic area in contact with her size-12s?

Although not 100% certain it looks like someone pulled down the size-12's wiped JonBenet clean then pulled them back up?

Then you have to factor in that essentially only two people knew about the size-12's, excluding JonBenet, i.e. Patsy and Burke.

Patsy does not need a Wednesday pair of underwear to stage a crime-scene, she would know any Day Of The Week underwear would suffice, so along with her inconsistent version of events as related to the size-12's, she can be ruled out.

This leaves Burke Ramsey, who Kolar says opened the Christmas Gifts on Christmas Day Afternoon, i.e. Burke Ramsey knew there was female underwear in the basement!

As I've mentioned before, Burke does not need to bring JonBenet to the size-12's, he can take them upstairs and redress JonBenet in them then claim an accident has happened?

Enter the parents to relocate and stage JonBenet in the wine-cellar?

.
 
Why didn't JR get rid of JBR's body on the the 26th? All he had to do was lock deceased JBR in his car trunk in the garage, cancel their flight with the pilot to Michigan upon "finding" the ransom note early morning, then JR drives to dispose of JBR's body someplace and returns home (JR could say he went out to look for JBR after reading the RN if caught driving so early), then PR calls police saying she found the RN. In other words, instead of hoping to get rid of the body after the police left the home, why not do it before the police were contacted? It would have been much simpler and probably turned into just another kidnapping/missing persons case if her body was never found, and the family would have been off the hook from the getgo.

jeena,
Yes, I agree with you. So why not?

Either JR thought this one through and arrived at it being too risky, i.e. caught with a dead JonBenet in his car, had to result in a jail sentence?

Or Patsy vetoed it, she could not bring herself to dump JonBenet out in the cold?

Alternatively, the parent(s) found JonBenet too late to dispose of JonBenet outdoors and accomplish all the staging?

I reckon the latter otherwise what was going on for the best part of 5-hours?

.
 
Disagree, JR could have told LE he cancelled the flight as soon as he read the RN at 5:00 am or whatever time they say it was, then he would have bought himself more time to dispose of the body, and PR could have called LE that afternoon. If JR had to explain why he went out with car before calling LE, he could have said to look for JBR and he was afraid to call LE sooner because of the warning in the RN. This scenario covers himself with the pilot and LE that he isn't a suspect.

You don't think it would have been suspicious on his part to cancel the flight before calling police? If anyone's child was knowingly abducted, the first call they'd need to make is to police.
 
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