Meredith Kercher murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
But would you agree that she could have been wearing her bra, but with the clasp cut? The positioning of the blood spots and so on would be very similar, but the bra would be more likely to move around, which seems to be what happened from Micheli's report.

I think RG probably made some (half-hearted) attempt to save her after the attack, hence him going to the bathroom to fetch towels to try and stop the bleeding, which would explain him moving her. It's possible he didn't actually intend to kill her.

Guede's skin cells were in both vaginal/anal areas, so just unzipped wouldn't have worked. The skin cells could also be consistent with sex without ejaculation as well as digital assault, so maybe Guede's story of 'unsuccessful sex' (or however he termed it) could've been true.

I'm still in the dark as to what the prosecution said in court about the possibility of the body being moved, though. Was any of this actually brought up in court? I haven't seen anything outside that report on TJMK and nothing at all on her trousers being removed after death - it seems pretty clear none of this was a major part of the prosecution case. I'm just a bit suspicious these are more rumours which didn't actually play a part in the case itself (like the mixed blood DNA...)

It could have, but RS's dna on the clasp (AK's too?) makes one believe the bra was cut after the major cuts to MK.
Still no reason for RG to move the body from around the closet. I believe 'unzipped' could still work. I don't believe there was any 'sex' except for digital assault.
Even if he (they) didn't intend to kill her, there were over 40 different wounds on MK... so torture at least.
The body being moved and the staged assault (bra cut, etc) were big parts of the case... because of RS's dna on the bra and AK 'knowing' where the killing took place in the room and the manner of death (but never seeing the crime scene supposidly).

Still no reason for RG to move the body, cut the bra or wipe up any footprints (bare) outside the room imo.
 
I still think we should focus solely on the facts of the case and not what we think happened. Of course, in doing that, some people may not like what they find. Maybe that's just me though.

What evidence directly places Amanda at the scene of the crime? What evidence directly links her to taking part in the murder of her flatmate? I haven't found it yet....IF it's even out there.
 
What evidence directly places Amanda at the scene of the crime?

By "at the scene of the crime" do you mean inside MK's room? That was my definition of scene of the crime, versus the entire apt. But I think it would be good to come to a common definition of 'scene of the crime,' because the number of pieces of evidence increases greatly if one is looking at the entire apt.
 
I still think we should focus solely on the facts of the case and not what we think happened. Of course, in doing that, some people may not like what they find. Maybe that's just me though.

What evidence directly places Amanda at the scene of the crime? What evidence directly links her to taking part in the murder of her flatmate? I haven't found it yet....IF it's even out there.

The problem is some of us DO try and focus on the case and what was said in the case..but then others try and say none of it is true even if people testified to it which makes it all very frustrating.
 
The problem is some of us DO try and focus on the case and what was said in the case..but then others try and say none of it is true even if people testified to it which makes it all very frustrating.

can you give an example?
 
By "at the scene of the crime" do you mean inside MK's room? That was my definition of scene of the crime, versus the entire apt. But I think it would be good to come to a common definition of 'scene of the crime,' because the number of pieces of evidence increases greatly if one is looking at the entire apt.

Yes, by "scene of the crime" I mean MK's room. Amanda lived in that apartment, so I would expect her DNA, hair, fingernails, etc to be found everywhere else.
 
Yes, by "scene of the crime" I mean MK's room. Amanda lived in that apartment, so I would expect her DNA, hair, fingernails, etc to be found everywhere else.

Her lamp was in there. Wouldn't you think her DNA was on her lamp?
 
Possibly, jjenny. I don't know if the lamp was rumor or actual evidence in court, though. But, if AK's lamp was in MK's room, AK's DNA could be on it. Though, I've never seen anything on DNA in association with the lamp. What are you thinking about the lamp?
 
What is the significance of AK's lamp being in MK's room? Did MK borrow it? Or are people asserting that AK used the lamp to brighten up the crime scene afterwards for the alteration of the scene and then just left the lamp in there?
 
For me, 'scene of the crime' when talking about Amanda and Raf is Meredith's bedroom only. However, when talking about Rudy, 'scene of the crime' becomes the whole flat. A&R and their DNA had reason to be in the cottage but not necessarily in Meredith's room, though trace amounts in MK's room wouldn't be uncommon. Rudy or his DNA and especially his doody have no reason to be in any part of the flat, as far as anyone knows. JMO
 
What is the significance of AK's lamp being in MK's room? Did MK borrow it? Or are people asserting that AK used the lamp to brighten up the crime scene afterwards for the alteration of the scene and then just left the lamp in there?

I haven't been able to find anything except on a few sites, in the comments portion, with the same discussion debating whether or not amanda's lamp was in there.

it might just be speculation...

eta: if the lamp was in meredith's room, wouldn't we already know if amands's dna was on it - if the lamp was in meredith's room (i've mentioned this before) who is to say how long it had been there, maybe she borrowed it from amanda.

JJenny, could you provide a link?
 
For me, 'scene of the crime' when talking about Amanda and Raf is Meredith's bedroom only. However, when talking about Rudy, 'scene of the crime' becomes the whole flat. A&R and their DNA had reason to be in the cottage but not necessarily in Meredith's room, though trace amounts in MK's room wouldn't be uncommon. Rudy or his DNA and especially his doody have no reason to be in any part of the flat, as far as anyone knows. JMO


When you say he had no right to be in there as far as anyone knows..

what we do know is that he was convicted of a murder along with Amanda Knox and RS. IF Amanda let him in there which seems more than probable then yes..he had a reason to be in that flat.
 
When you say he had no right to be in there as far as anyone knows..

what we do know is that he was convicted of a murder along with Amanda Knox and RS. IF Amanda let him in there which seems more than probable then yes..he had a reason to be in that flat.

What is the point you are trying to make here and what does it have to do with my post?

Rudy, his DNA and his doody had no reason to be anywhere in that flat, as far as anyone knows (meaning MK may have been the one to invite him in). Unless, he was there to do harm in some way...

Amanda's DNA belongs in the flat as it was her place of residence. Raf's DNA would have reason to be there because he was a common guest of AK's in the week or two leading up to MK's murder.

Again, I don't understand what point you are trying to make in your post. Do you feel my assessment of what/where the crime scene is and in relation to whom is incorrect?
 
What is the point you are trying to make here and what does it have to do with my post?

Rudy, his DNA and his doody had no reason to be anywhere in that flat, as far as anyone knows (meaning MK may have been the one to invite him in). Unless, he was there to do harm in some way...

Amanda's DNA belongs in the flat as it was her place of residence. Raf's DNA would have reason to be there because he was a common guest of AK's in the week or two leading up to MK's murder.

Again, I don't understand what point you are trying to make in your post. Do you feel my assessment of what/where the crime scene is and in relation to whom is incorrect?

I believe the point im making is simple to understand. You stated Rudy had no business being in that flat as far as anyone knows when the simple fact is the woman he was convicted alongside of lived in that cottage and the murder THEY committed was inside that cottage and it is believed that the woman convicted Amanda Knox let him into that cottage. Therefore if he was let in..then yes he had a reason to be in there...unfortunately for poor Meredith.
 
I believe the point im making is simple to understand. You stated Rudy had no business being in that flat as far as anyone knows when the simple fact is the woman he was convicted alongside of lived in that cottage and the murder THEY committed was inside that cottage and it is believed that the woman convicted Amanda Knox let him into that cottage. Therefore if he was let in..then yes he had a reason to be in there...unfortunately for poor Meredith.

maybe i'm being obtuse but, even if what you are saying is true, i still don't understand how that gives him (guede) a "reason" to be there. i don't want to speak for anyone else but i *believe* the previous posts meant by "reason to be there" that the persons in question either lived there or were dating someone that lived there...
 
maybe i'm being obtuse but, even if what you are saying is true, i still don't understand how that gives him (guede) a "reason" to be there. i don't want to speak for anyone else but i *believe* the previous posts meant by "reason to be there" that the persons in question either lived there or were dating someone that lived there...

IF someone is invited into a house by one of the people living there..they are then guests of that person and so have a reason to be in there.
 
This thread is starting to go off the rails. I realize that there are some who believe Amanda and Raffaele are guilty and others who don't but we are not some kind of surrogate jury trial, we are a group of amateur sleuths trying to figure out what really happened (I think). I don't really care if the "burden of proof" against Amanda and Rafaelle was met. Thats the business of the Itallian justice system.

Those of us who believe Amanda and Raffaele were involved have been presenting the case that the evidence demonstrates that they engaged in a staging/clean-up that attempted to remove the evidence of their presence while leaving evidence of Rudy's presence there. The "pro Amanda" group seems to be trying undermine this argument without really offering an explaination of what really happened. This whole issue of whether or not the "crime scene" was limited to just Meredith's room is completly irrelevant to understanding what really happened but it a key part of the argment that "burden of proof not met" (no evidence of Amanda's presence at the crime scene). I would like the "friends of Amanda" to explain what they think really happened; and why.

Also, there are numerous references to Amanda's lamp, with the cord leading out of her door. (although I haven't read where it was actually pluged in). This would suggest that Meredith had not simply borrowed it before anything had happened. It would be intyeresting to know whose, if any, fingerprints or DNA was on it.
 
This thread is starting to go off the rails. I realize that there are some who believe Amanda and Raffaele are guilty and others who don't but we are not some kind of surrogate jury trial, we are a group of amateur sleuths trying to figure out what really happened (I think). I don't really care if the "burden of proof" against Amanda and Rafaelle was met. Thats the business of the Itallian justice system.

Those of us who believe Amanda and Raffaele were involved have been presenting the case that the evidence demonstrates that they engaged in a staging/clean-up that attempted to remove the evidence of their presence while leaving evidence of Rudy's presence there. The "pro Amanda" group seems to be trying undermine this argument without really offering an explaination of what really happened. This whole issue of whether or not the "crime scene" was limited to just Meredith's room is completly irrelevant to understanding what really happened but it a key part of the argment that "burden of proof not met" (no evidence of Amanda's presence at the crime scene). I would like the "friends of Amanda" to explain what they think really happened; and why.

Also, there are numerous references to Amanda's lamp, with the cord leading out of her door. (although I haven't read where it was actually pluged in). This would suggest that Meredith had not simply borrowed it before anything had happened. It would be intyeresting to know whose, if any, fingerprints or DNA was on it.

BBM

As a part of the so-called "Pro-Amanda group" I take offense to the statement I have bolded. I have, on numerous occasions, offered my theories on what I believe really happened. I know other so-called "Pro-Amanda" posters have, as well. I don't think the problem is so much that we don't offer what we believe really happened as much as I think it is that the "Pro-Guilt group" aren't willing to listen to what we have to say. Anytime I have offered a solution or a more plausible explanation for events that occured, I get shot down with silly rhetoric, snap comments or a request to answer questions that I or others have already addressed, numerous times, like, "Why was their blood mixed throughout the cottage" (it wasn't) or "Why were Amanda's footprints in blood in the hallway?" (they weren't). It's like debating in circles. Or, we get ignored. More than once, one of us have asked a sticky question of a "pro-guilt' poster and are met with silence, unless another "Pro-Amanda" poster feels like answering.

When we post a link to something that we consider to be valuable information and it is from a so-called "Pro-Defense" site, it's shot down with comments like, "That's a Pro-Amanda site, of course they are lying" or "of course they are biased". I'm pretty sure when we post a link to these sites, the Pro-Guilt posters don't even look. Have you ever read through any of the "Pro-Amanda" sites? Have ANY of the Pro-guilt posters or do you all just brush these sites off as false and uninformed? I read through sites from BOTH sides, I gather information from sites representing both sides. I prefer balance, I guess. The problem, IMO and I'm sure the opinon of others, IS that "pro-prosecution" posters aren't willing to take a look in another direction and NOT that we don't offer it. Too much blind faith in what Mignini says. It's disturbing.

Also, I know we're not a 'surrogate jury', I feel it's important for us at WS to offer a balanced discussion for others to read. More than once, a newcomer to the case or the site has said that this is the only site they have found that discusses both sides of the case or that WS is the only site that isn't biased towards one side or the other. I'm proud of that, aren't you? I DO care if the burden of proof against them wasn't met, because it could happen to anyone. Anyone could be convicted of a crime that they didn't commit. It's important to bring awareness to it when it so blatently happens, IMO.

Another thing, I'm more than just a part of a "Pro-Amanda" group. Amanda isn't the only one wrongly convicted here. Raf is wrongly convicted, too. I prefer Pro-Innocence or Pro-Defense. It's sad, to me, that Raf gets lost in this. He is also being held hostage for a crime he did not commit, just like Amanda. If you're interested in the theories I have offered all you have to do is look. My theories are plastered all over the first two threads, right along with the numerous theories of the other Pro-Defense or "On the Fence" posters.
 
snip
Those of us who believe Amanda and Raffaele were involved have been presenting the case that the evidence demonstrates that they engaged in a staging/clean-up that attempted to remove the evidence of their presence while leaving evidence of Rudy's presence there. The "pro Amanda" group seems to be trying undermine this argument without really offering an explaination of what really happened.
that's not true, kemo...there have been plenty of explanations given, (one being) to think anyone could remove invisible traces of their presence while leaving invisible traces of someone else's presence is preposterous.
we (on the forum) have discussed the "staging" and the "clean up" over and over - I'm not convinced there was either (I also don't believe they go hand in hand)... what "evidence demonstrates they engaged" because I haven't heard, read, seen anything that sounds reasonable -
however, I'm still open to the possibility - maybe you can give me a clearer picture of what happened, say, starting with the staging... rock, window, glass, clothes etc... what do you think happened?
Also, there are numerous references to Amanda's lamp, with the cord leading out of her door. (although I haven't read where it was actually pluged in). This would suggest that Meredith had not simply borrowed it before anything had happened. It would be intyeresting to know whose, if any, fingerprints or DNA was on it.
If there are "numerous" references to the lamp, could you please provide a link? (i don't care if it's true justice or whatever) I'm frustrated because I have searched everywhere. Last night I finally found an article briefly explaining the animation (the reenactment made with avatars) Mignini showed the jury - the film showed (something to the effect) amanda and rafaelle running down the hall to amanda's room grabbing the lamp and then they run into meredith's room - that was it, that was all it said about the lamp. Then I found a forum that had Amanda's testimony from the trial (possibly translated?) and the lamp is mentioned...
(during the trial migini questions amanda) Listen, another question. The lamp that was found in Meredith's room, a black
lamp with a red button, that was found in Meredith's room, at the foot of
the bed, was it yours?

I did have a lamp with a red button in my room, yes.

So the lamp was yours.

I suppose it was.

Was it missing from your room?

You know, I didn't look.

Did Meredith have a lamp like that in her room?

I don't know.
Amanda Knox Testimony - In Session Message Boards

Since I don't know if it was mentioned again in the trial, I have no way of knowing the significance... (the above doesn't say much) do you know if there are crime scene photos showing the lamp in meredith's room vs. amandas room? I can't seem to find any -
 
So Kemo, what exactly would you like us to discuss?

I have no idea exactly what happened in that apt Nov 1, 2007. I certainly wish I did. I do know a beautiful young college student was murdered, a drifter-type named Rudy Guede left evidence of himself in that apt, on and in the victim, and I know he didn't live there. He also admitted to being there during the murder. Even if he had denied it I would still believe him to be there since he left evidence showing he was there at the time of the murder itself. So I know that he was involved and more than a little involved.

I don't know if AK and RS participated or not. I don't know if they were in the apt at the time of the murder or not. I know there's physical evidence that links AK to the apt and there is some mixed DNA between her and MK. I don't know if that mixed DNA is a result of AK being involved in MK's murder. The reason I don't know is because AK lived in that apt and shared that same bathroom with MK. Maybe she was involved, and maybe she wasn't. I don't know.

RS's DNA is found on 1 piece of evidence in MK's room--and that piece of evidence has come under a lot of scrutiny for some good reasons.

A bloody footprint on a bathmat might be RS's and then again, it might not be. You have experts on either side saying it was/wasn't. Was it RS's? I don't know.

There's a knife from RS's apt that has AK DNA on the handle and might have MK DNA on it, but it depends if you believe the overridden DNA control test in the lab (or not). There's dispute about the results and their validity. I don't know what to believe about that knife.

There might be staging but there might not be staging. It depends on which expert you are listening to. There might have been a cleanup attempt and there might not have been a cleanup attempt. There is conflicting interpretation of the scene.

Are AK and RS guilty of committing MK's murder (along with RG)? I don't know. I really don't know what to believe.

Some say 'absolutely not!' Some say, 'yes, absolutely!' There are probably a few like me who scratch their heads, and haven't been able to sleuth their way to an opinion yet.

You want people to come up with scenarios of how the murder occurred in which AK and RS did not take part? I know Tizzle and Miley and MissyJane gave their scenarios.

So what else?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
83
Guests online
4,160
Total visitors
4,243

Forum statistics

Threads
592,548
Messages
17,970,779
Members
228,805
Latest member
Val in PA
Back
Top