MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

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JMHO, but he belongs at the jail. The residents of the Children's Village are not all children who are there because of criminal activity---there are children with mental health issues. Based on the information that the prosec. team presented about him wanting a fan base, the unstructured time with non-professional, trained oversight team seems like an accident or training ground for him to make acquaintance who might be of like mind or be persuaded to be of like mind. It just seems too risky for me. If the information presented today showed a kid with remorse, bettering himself through education, not emailing nut jobs who are emailing him I might feel differently. He just seems manipulative and dangerous.

Many years ago, when I was in my late 20s/early 30s, I was quite active in a local service organization. Each year, members of our service club visited Children's Village during the holidays to meet with a group of residents, play games, do arts/crafts, decorate a Christmas tree, sing carols, serve punch & cookies, etc. Some service club members attended the event annually, but I only went once because the outing was emotionally draining for me. It saddened me to see 8 to 10-year-old children living such hopeless lives and relying on outsiders to bring a mere dose of happiness to their sad existence. I'm sure that some of the emotionally challenged youngsters were heavily medicated, as they seemed barely able to function like normal children in a festive social setting.

I can't even imagine what the older residents of Children's Village must be like, especially those who have committed crimes and/or are awaiting trial or have severe behavioral issues. The description of the "youth specialists" who monitor the residents made them sound like camp counselors. I doubt that any of them are equipped to handle a teen with Ethan's mental health issues and sociopathic tendencies. JMO
 
@Kristin Esq. Along with the others, thank you so much for the transcript. I was watching Court TV awaiting this and they didn't seem to be concerned with it, just the Movie Popcorn Trial. So thanks to WS giving a link (thanks to anyone that posted one).
I am also wondering who is feeding his jail account.

Whew, there is a lot more to this case than I was even thinking before. It seems EC has more going on than just seeing ghosts and poor parents.

I thought that I was going to be on the side of sending him to the children's place but now I'm not sure. After that speech at the end with the things about torture and journal writings, also about his thirst for attention (good or bad) after being put in jail, this is going south. The "blaming the parents" defense is fading.

A bit belated, but --

Welcome to Websleuths,
ContentHomebody !!
 
@Kristin Esq. Along with the others, thank you so much for the transcript. I was watching Court TV awaiting this and they didn't seem to be concerned with it, just the Movie Popcorn Trial. So thanks to WS giving a link (thanks to anyone that posted one).
I am also wondering who is feeding his jail account.

Whew, there is a lot more to this case than I was even thinking before. It seems EC has more going on than just seeing ghosts and poor parents.

I thought that I was going to be on the side of sending him to the children's place but now I'm not sure. After that speech at the end with the things about torture and journal writings, also about his thirst for attention (good or bad) after being put in jail, this is going south. The "blaming the parents" defense is fading.

A bit belated, but --

A mass murderer of his peers - I can't imagine that EC would be too popular in Children's Village. Sounds like more than a few of the CV residents are no strangers to violence - HIS safety at CV might be a concern ...

EC should absolutely be kept at the county jail ... why mess with success and tempt fate?

bbm
Short & sweet -- you nailed it.
 
I don't think we knew about the stalking and raping of a female classmate. It was definitely the first time I'd heard it.

It was also new information for me, and although as I said, I believe a part of him wanted help, this information makes me feel there's even less of a chance he could be rehabilitated.
 
I wonder if the state of Michigan has a forensic psychiatric facility where Ethan could be held (with a court order) for custody during the pre-trial period for psychiatric evaluation and treatment. It seems that neither the jail facility or Childrens Village are ideal settings for this situation.

For example, I am familiar with the work of the national Pinel Institute for forensic psychiatry in Canada that offers custody and evaluation for both criminally-charged adults and adolescents while waiting for trial, if ordered by the court.
 
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It was also new information for me, and although as I said, I believe a part of him wanted help, this information makes me feel there's even less of a chance he could be rehabilitated.

Yes, as I posted earlier, I know he was completely ignored by his parents, and I know he is young. However, the new info about his plans to torture and kill a specific female classmate is very, very troubling. So is his lust for a kind of glory in being notorious.

IMO I don't see a shred of remorse, nor even a noncommittal attitude about what he has done. Instead I see a boy who carefully calibrated this entire act of violence with the end in mind that he would be both feared and celebrated amongst people with a certain mindset.

Maybe when he's 60 he will regret murdering his schoolmates. Maybe. In the interim, it's my opinion that he cannot be sent to live among other kids. I assume that some kids would be scared of him, which he seems to cherish. Others might admire him for having the "guts" to pull this off, or envy him his "fame." It seems like he would cherish that even more. His goal, according to what we've learned, seemed to be not only to kill his schoolmates but to become known as a school shooter, with the attendant "fans" who worship violent acts.

Just the thought of him eagerly awaiting both fan mail and hate mail is, to me, very indicative of a person who is thoroughly thrilled with what he did.


Unfortunately, there are terrible parents everywhere. Most of their children do not kill their peers. IMO Ethan is a product of his parents' neglect, but also of his own twisted mentality. A mentality that is not insane but entirely cunning. My hope is that other children, in the Children's Village and elsewhere, do not commit copycat crimes. So many of these kids think Columbine was terrific and they seek to emulate that, as Ethan did. Although Dylan and Eric killed themselves and so there was no trial, and at least Dylan's background was a loving family, so no one knows what propelled them.

Jmo
 
First Witness: Christina Belling

Employed with the Sheriff's office, as an inmate case worker.

Case Worker: assess and manage crisis that comes into the jail - such as a high profile case, suicidal. Then work with medical and psychiatrist to get services. Once managed, they assess mental health changes.

She has worked with juveniles in the jail. She's worked with under 10 as a case worker. She is the case worker for EC. She was assigned the day that he came in - Dec. 1, 2021.

She was meeting with EC daily. There were a few occassions a few times a day, but mostly once a day. Can be from 5 minutes and up.

She assessed for mental health issues.

She is no longer meeting with him on a daily basis, but twice a week. This changed when he came off a constant watch approx. one month ago.

If he needed medical treatment it would be available to him. They met in front of the cell door within the clinic.

A licensed psychiatarist would be available to him.

She currently has about 70 inmates, but doesn't meet with any of them two times a week. But with EC he meets two times a week due to his counseling and that he's a juvenile.

DEFENSE CROSS:

Adults inmates assigned to her have been hundreds - could be thousands.

She currently has only one juvenile, EC.

She decides what kind of what EC someone is. He was on a constant watch. He has a deputy outside observing him 24/7 to ensure his safety and security. Due to this, he still has suicide blankets, but he's not on suicide watch.

She sees him on Mondays, but this past week he wasn't there at the end of the week. The records would show that she did see him twice a week. There are also other case workers who will fill in.

She doesn't decide about access to the tablet. Nothing to do with food delivery or the type of food he gets.

She doesn't have anything to do with education. She's not aware whether he's getting any education services.

The makeup of clinic to cell location: he's in an individual cell, there is a half glass door that looks forward. If he looks out the door, there is a tv on the ceiling, he may see staff.

REBUTTAL:
The factors that went into the determination to take him off suicide watch - she cannot discuss these as it's privileged.

She has provided him Harry Potter books. To her knowledge, he's read them.

If he needed to reach her, he would tell the deputy and the deputy would call her. And she would make an exception to put him to the top of the list.

Asked again about general factors to take a person off suicide watch: When the decision is made, she collaborates with others. She wouldn't take anyone off suicide watch for which she had concerns about their safety.

Judge is asking questions:
He's currently on a behavior watch. Step down from suicide watch to further assess for behavior changes.

DEFENSE FOLLOW UP
Meetings with EC, sometimes they are longer than 5 minutes but they take place in his cell doorway.

Okay, please hear me out and please, PLEASE keep in mind that I'm not suggesting this kid not be punished. But this is heartbreaking. He gets mental health care in a doorway??? That's not how that works. She doesn't know if he gets education services? I'm pretty sure that is mandatory.

This kid has no apparent advocate who LOVES him. He seems to only have an attorney. Is there any extended family that can step up (just thinking out loud about his options, NOT suggesting that we investigate the family)? Even if he's found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, he needs people on the outside who love him, especially while he's still a juvenile. I believe he is seriously mentally ill and I also believe his parents made it worse. He was dealt a rotten hand.
 
Many years ago, when I was in my late 20s/early 30s, I was quite active in a local service organization. Each year, members of our service club visited Children's Village during the holidays to meet with a group of residents, play games, do arts/crafts, decorate a Christmas tree, sing carols, serve punch & cookies, etc. Some service club members attended the event annually, but I only went once because the outing was emotionally draining for me. It saddened me to see 8 to 10-year-old children living such hopeless lives and relying on outsiders to bring a mere dose of happiness to their sad existence. I'm sure that some of the emotionally challenged youngsters were heavily medicated, as they seemed barely able to function like normal children in a festive social setting.

I can't even imagine what the older residents of Children's Village must be like, especially those who have committed crimes and/or are awaiting trial or have severe behavioral issues. The description of the "youth specialists" who monitor the residents made them sound like camp counselors. I doubt that any of them are equipped to handle a teen with Ethan's mental health issues and sociopathic tendencies. JMO
And he might kill someone.
 
Okay, please hear me out and please, PLEASE keep in mind that I'm not suggesting this kid not be punished. But this is heartbreaking. He gets mental health care in a doorway??? That's not how that works. She doesn't know if he gets education services? I'm pretty sure that is mandatory.

This kid has no apparent advocate who LOVES him. He seems to only have an attorney. Is there any extended family that can step up (just thinking out loud about his options, NOT suggesting that we investigate the family)? Even if he's found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, he needs people on the outside who love him, especially while he's still a juvenile. I believe he is seriously mentally ill and I also believe his parents made it worse. He was dealt a rotten hand.
 
Okay, please hear me out and please, PLEASE keep in mind that I'm not suggesting this kid not be punished. But this is heartbreaking. He gets mental health care in a doorway??? That's not how that works. She doesn't know if he gets education services? I'm pretty sure that is mandatory.

This kid has no apparent advocate who LOVES him. He seems to only have an attorney. Is there any extended family that can step up (just thinking out loud about his options, NOT suggesting that we investigate the family)? Even if he's found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, he needs people on the outside who love him, especially while he's still a juvenile. I believe he is seriously mentally ill and I also believe his parents made it worse. He was dealt a rotten hand.

Honestly, I think he's so utterly damaged that he's way past the point that love from anyone could get through or affect him in any positive way. imho, he's a psychopath - they don't comprehend / react to normal human emotions like normal people. Yes, he was dealt a rotten hand with his rotten parents, which made everything worse but there's every chance, in light of what he did and was planning to do (his horrific journal entries), that he would have been a psychopathic killer even with the best, most loving parents.

JMO
 
Honestly, I think he's so utterly damaged that he's way past the point that love from anyone could get through or affect him in any positive way. imho, he's a psychopath - they don't comprehend / react to normal human emotions like normal people. Yes, he was dealt a rotten hand with his rotten parents, which made everything worse but there's every chance, in light of what he did and was planning to do (his horrific journal entries), that he would have been a psychopathic killer even with the best, most loving parents.

JMO

I totally agree with you
 
Oxford student seeks gun reform: ‘We deserve to feel safe’

Zoe Touray called for gun reform and school mental health services alongside others Wednesday on the Michigan Capitol steps as she shared her experience at Oxford High School the day of the shooting last November that killed four of her classmates.

The senior at the school said she fled out a classroom window and held her friend's hand while she texted her mother that she loved her.

“I think about seeing hundreds of familiar faces running beside me running for our lives to Meijer, the grocery store turn sanctuary.” Touray said. “I think about the next day when I got the call that my friend Justin died.”


[...]


Members from March for Our Lives, a youth-led gun violence prevention organization and other stakeholders in student mental health, spoke about gun violence and called on the Legislature to approve bills for safe storage of firearms and getting at least one mental health professional in every school. The Republican-led Legislature has not held a hearing to take up legislation Democrats introduced to require gun owners to lock up their firearms so minors can't access them.

The Director of the Senate Majority Office's Communication Director Matt Sweeney told The Associated Press that though he isn't aware of whether the bills will be taken up in committee, Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey met with students from the group on Wednesday and shares their desire to make schools as safe as possible. The chair of the House committee where similar gun storage bills are awaiting hearing did not respond to the AP's request for comment.

Touray said that in the aftermath of the shootings she and other classmates have suffered trauma, with some unable to return to school. She said if lawmakers had acted earlier in the best interest of students, her friends would be celebrating birthdays and graduations instead of “spending every minute being overwhelmed with pain and grief.”

“We need to be proactive, not reactive. Our legislators have the power to save the next school and the lives of countless children,” Touray said. “We deserve to feel safe at school.”

Oxford student seeks gun reform: ‘We deserve to feel safe’
 
James, Jennifer Crumbley return to court Thursday as judge considers trial
More evidence expected to be released during day 2 of couple’s preliminary examination hearing

James and Jennifer Crumbley will appear in court again on Thursday, Feb. 24, for day two of their preliminary examination hearing.

The judge has already admonished the couple for their displays of affection to each other.

“You’re not to have communication with each other. It’s disruptive and it’s disrespectful,” the judge said.

So far, prosecutors have tried to show that the parents were more concerned with the two horses they owned than their son’s “disturbing” behavior. Their son, Ethan Crumbley, is accused of opening fire at Oxford High School during school hours on Nov. 30, 2021, fatally striking four students and wounding seven other people.

[...]

James, Jennifer Crumbley return to court Thursday as judge considers trial
 
Defense matter before beginning:

Requested the clients to be uncuffed to be able to take notes. Request to uncuff one hand. Referring to EC being uncuffed. Judge is deferring to the Sheriff's department. Sheriff cuffed one hand to the chair to allow one hand to be able to write.

Prosecutor brought up the potential conflict issue. Judge is confirming defendant's understanding of the potential conflict. Prosecutor explains there is separate evidence as to each defendant.
 
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