More info needed

[SharetheLight]

:doh::doh:

Oops, I edited the ending of my previous post before you quoted me. I am thinking now, based on piecing together some references made by the author, that it was written between 1998 and 2004. Anyway, I just wanted to clear it up that the article was relatively current and that he was being reinterviewed in it as an adult. So, that's why I thought he might be the 13 yr old Jimmy from way back when.

You're right, the "Jimmy" and James thing is a little bit confusing. It is too bad that the author didn't ask him straight out whether his sighting was one of the originals or even mention his age at the time of the disappearance.

Sorry, I edited your quote in my post to reflect your edited post. :doh:

 

[LillyRush]

:doh::doh:

Sorry, I edited your quote in my post to reflect your edited post. :doh:

Oh, it's alright, you could have kept it that way. It was my fault for editing without checking to see whether there were any replies. :blushing:

And I keep discovering more things in that article after the fact. lol It is mentioned that, at the time of the article, their older brother Jay was 43 and had become a homicide detective. He was 15 in 1975, sounds like he was born in 1960....therefore this article with quotes from James Mann was probably written in 2003.

 

[Motherof5]

I think maybe you are reading the article as though it were written in or around 1975? However, it's my understanding that this article was written several years after the disappearance. The article refers to James Mann remembering back to 1975 when there was still a wooded area dividing Drumm Court, an area that - per the article - has been cleared away and has houses built on it now. The quote from him about it being "such a tragedy" is something he said in present time...as an adult.

Also, if he has been living in the same neighborhood since he was a child or teenager, then I would definitely call that a long time resident. Granted, he could be in his 60s or 70s now and have been an adult homeowner at that time. Either way, the interview with James Mann and the article were done within the last 10 years. Near the end of the article, the author makes reference to a 1998 Washington Post article.

edited to add-that the article also references the Missing Persons Cold Case Network, which is a website that closed down sometime in 2003 or 2004 and then they transferred everything to the Charley Project. So, as far as a timeline on the article, we can estimate that it was written sometime between 1998 and 2004.

I understood that the article was not written back in 1975 and James Mann was reflecting back on what he had seen. I still feel as though he was an adult in 1975.

snipped by me.

Mann recalls that police asked permission to search his crawl space, along with those of his neighbors.

That just sounds like an adult homeowner describing the events from back in 1975 to a reporter. IMO if he had been a child back then he would have sad that police asked his parents for permission to search their crawl space.Anyway,just my opinion.

 

[SharetheLight]

I understood that the article was not written back in 1975 and James Mann was reflecting back on what he had seen. I still feel as though he was an adult in 1975.

snipped by me.

Mann recalls that police asked permission to search his crawl space, along with those of his neighbors.

That just sounds like an adult homeowner describing the events from back in 1975 to a reporter. IMO if he had been a child back then he would have sad that police asked his parents for permission to search their crawl space.Anyway,just my opinion.

Good find. He most likely was an adult and still is an adult, much older .

 

[LillyRush]

I looked on zabasearch.com and the only James Mann in Kensington Heights has a birthdate of May 1920. That is probably him and would make him about 80+ when being interviewed for the article. Pretty good memory for an 80-something! I noticed the comment about the crawlspace and thought maybe he just didn't want to sound weird by saying "my parent's house". But that was the one comment that did make me think he might have been older at the time. Mainly, I just wanted to see whether there was any connection to the other "Jimmy" as far as them being the same witness. So, now that does make at least two witnesses who say they remember them walking.

 

[Motherof5]

Thank you so much for taking the time to check that out!!

 

[Richard]

I posted a rather long response in the new Questions thread regarding all the eyewitnesses who reportedly saw the Lyon girls on 25 March 1975.

James M. Mann did live in a house on Devin Place in 1975. I confirmed this by finding him in both a 1974 and a 1975-76 Phone Directory. He is 88 years old now.

As I mentioned in the long post, I have never seen James Mann listed as an eyewitness who saw the girls on 25 March 1975. He certainly would have read in the paper of the report that the girls had been seen walking home near Drumm and Devin Place (where his house stood). And he may well have seen the girls passing by at one time or another but the initial report of the Drumm and Devin sighting did NOT come from him.

The police reportedly took a statement on 4 April 1975 from a 15-year-old boy and another boy or young man who said they had been driving west on Drumm between 2:30 PM and 3:30 PM on 25 March 1975. According to the report, the girls were just walking normally in the roadway (not on the sidewalk) west on Drumm and near Devin Place. This would have meant that they were walking toward home and away from Wheaton Plaza.

Police with held this information from the public until 17 April 1975. At that time they announced that they were 95 percent sure that the boy had seen the girls.

My discussions with police led me to believe that case officers later had some doubts about this information and put less reliance on it. They did not, however, tell me specifically why they had their doubts, other than to suggest that the passage of time between the alleged sighting and the report could have allowed for memory problems or for fabrication.

 

[SharetheLight]

I posted a rather long response in the new Questions thread regarding all the eyewitnesses who reportedly saw the Lyon girls on 25 March 1975.

James M. Mann did live in a house on Devin Place in 1975. I confirmed this by finding him in both a 1974 and a 1975-76 Phone Directory. He is 88 years old now.

As I mentioned in the long post, I have never seen James Mann listed as an eyewitness who saw the girls on 25 March 1975. He certainly would have read in the paper of the report that the girls had been seen walking home near Drumm and Devin Place (where his house stood). And he may well have seen the girls passing by at one time or another but the initial report of the Drumm and Devin sighting did NOT come from him.

The police reportedly took a statement on 4 April 1975 from a 15-year-old boy and another boy or young man who said they had been driving west on Drumm between 2:30 PM and 3:30 PM on 25 March 1975. According to the report, the girls were just walking normally in the roadway (not on the sidewalk) west on Drumm and near Devin Place. This would have meant that they were walking toward home and away from Wheaton Plaza.

Police with held this information from the public until 17 April 1975. At that time they announced that they were 95 percent sure that the boy had seen the girls.

My discussions with police led me to believe that case officers later had some doubts about this information and put less reliance on it. They did not, however, tell me specifically why they had their doubts, other than to suggest that the passage of time between the alleged sighting and the report could have allowed for memory problems or for fabrication.

Thank you for the post as to the eyewitness accounts.
Clearly the police haven't releassed all the information they have about this case to the public. Maybe Mr. Mann's account is a piece they've withheld? Why would they withhold that info, I cannot determine, but maybe they did. Or maybe Mr. Mann made it all up??

 

[Motherof5]

original post by STL-
What time did Jay leave the Mall on 3/25? What time did he arrive home? Did Jay go directly home from the mall?
I ask these questions because most likely he would have taken the same route home that his sisters took. If his sisters made it out of the mall that day, maybe he saw something that he didn't even realize he saw? With this information, maybe we could tighten up the timeline a bit. If he happened to pass the house around the same time the boy said he saw the lyon girls around 2:30-3:30, then either the boy was mistaken, or the timeline would change slightly. Did the boy who was outside see Jay when he went home??
__________________
Children don't stop dancing

These are important questions that never got answered. Does anyone have this info on Jay?In addition to asking what time Jay got home from the mall,do we know what time he left for the mall? Also,do we know where brother Joe was,did he go to the mall with Jay or bowling with his mom?

 

[SharetheLight]

I think maybe we should consider the possibility that the girls actually made it home. It is possible considering they were reportedly seen by two independant witnesses that day around 2:30-3:30 walking toward their home. Mr. Lyon reportedly left the home at 3pm.
No one has answered my question as to what time Jay came home and what path he took. So I'll assume we don't know.
I don't know where younger brother Joe was, that day. Motherof5 asked this and there is no response, so I'll assume we don't know.

The girls very well could have made it home and met with foul play in the home.
I've asked about accounts from direct neighbors to the lyon home, and we know nothing.
I've read accounts about people who lived on streets the girls would pass to get to the mall. And the named people the girls knew were reportedly out during the 11am-12 noon time frame, but there is not report as to their whereabouts later in the afternoon. So we really don't know if they made it further than Drumm Ave. The two separate sightings leads me to believe they made it this far.

An abduction from the mall or on the street would be a random abduction. Who would know where they'd be and when on a day off from school?? An abduction from the home would be intentional or random depending on why someone would be in the home.
John reportedly left the house at 3pm, met Mary in front of the bowling alley, they went to the bank and came home. This is enough time for something to have happened.

If the girls made it home, who would be likely to have committed this act??

 

[Motherof5]

I think maybe we should consider the possibility that the girls actually made it home. It is possible considering they were reportedly seen by two independant witnesses that day around 2:30-3:30 walking toward their home. Mr. Lyon reportedly left the home at 3pm.
No one has answered my question as to what time Jay came home and what path he took. So I'll assume we don't know.
I don't know where younger brother Joe was, that day. Motherof5 asked this and there is no response, so I'll assume we don't know.

The girls very well could have made it home and met with foul play in the home.
I've asked about accounts from direct neighbors to the lyon home, and we know nothing.
I've read accounts about people who lived on streets the girls would pass to get to the mall. And the named people the girls knew were reportedly out during the 11am-12 noon time frame, but there is not report as to their whereabouts later in the afternoon. So we really don't know if they made it further than Drumm Ave. The two separate sightings leads me to believe they made it this far.

An abduction from the mall or on the street would be a random abduction. Who would know where they'd be and when on a day off from school?? An abduction from the home would be intentional or random depending on why someone would be in the home.
John reportedly left the house at 3pm, met Mary in front of the bowling alley, they went to the bank and came home. This is enough time for something to have happened.

If the girls made it home, who would be likely to have committed this act??

I agree that this is possible,but I think it would probably have to be someone that they knew for 2 reasons:
1. Kate was supposed to visit the new baby of her neighbor that day,I don't know how close to the Lyon home she lived but I assume she was home that day and would have heard an altercation outside most likely,but not if they willingly went with someone they knew.
2. If there was foul play in the home,there would have probably been some evidence of that left behind.Now,if they came home to an empty house and someone that they new stopped by and they went for a ride with this person,you might not know that they were ever home unless they were seen.

 

[Fukiyama]

I agree that this is possible,but I think it would probably have to be someone that they knew for 2 reasons:
1. Kate was supposed to visit the new baby of her neighbor that day,I don't know how close to the Lyon home she lived but I assume she was home that day and would have heard an altercation outside most likely,but not if they willingly went with someone they knew.
2. If there was foul play in the home,there would have probably been some evidence of that left behind.Now,if they came home to an empty house and someone that they new stopped by and they went for a ride with this person,you might not know that they were ever home unless they were seen.

I'd be interested in knowing what the state of the street was around the girls' house that afternoon. Was the garage open with cars gone? Were the surrounding houses visibly deserted, their owners gone running errands?

If they did indeed make it home, I think it more likely that they didn't actually make it inside, but rather were trailed from the mall and whoever grabbed them saw an opportunity...

 

[Motherof5]

I'd be interested in knowing what the state of the street was around the girls' house that afternoon. Was the garage open with cars gone? Were the surrounding houses visibly deserted, their owners gone running errands?

If they did indeed make it home, I think it more likely that they didn't actually make it inside, but rather were trailed from the mall and whomever grabbed them saw an opportunity...

I would love to know that too.I think it would have been difficult for a stranger abduction to take place in front of their house,beacuse Kate was supposed to visit her neighbor's baby. I think this woman was probably home(but don't know for sure)and would have heard a struggle.But, like I said, we don't know if she was home.I really think someone known to them could have done this without drawing attention.

 

[Motherof5]

Richard,do you know if LE has said anything about the neighbors being home or not when John and Mary were out of the house that day and do we know where brother Joe was?

 

[Richard]

Richard,do you know if LE has said anything about the neighbors being home or not when John and Mary were out of the house that day and do we know where brother Joe was?

From: Washington Star article Sunday 6 April 1975:

(quote) ... It was 11:30 a.m. as the girls got ready to leave. Mrs. Lyon had a half hour to get dressed, wash her short hair, and be on time for her bowling game, her fourth venture at duckpins.

"I was trying to wash my hair. I was in the bathroom, and they kept saying: 'I'm going now, Mom. I'm going now, Mom.' Then the boys kept asking where the basketball was." ...

At 3:30 p.m., Mrs. Lyon arrived home from her bowling trip. The girls weren't there....

Her husband had met her outside the Wheaton Triangle bowling alley. From there they went together to the Kensington bank before it closed and then on to a used bookstore.

Back home, Mrs. Lyon recalled, "John went in and lay down. I changed my clothes and worked in the front yard for three hours. The boys had come home by then."... (unquote)

This is the best I could find regarding the wherabouts of Jay (14) and Joe (9) Lyon the day that their sisters disappeared. As the girls left home ABOUT 11:30 (all times are approximate and vary from one account to another) the boys were looking for a basketball.

Jay Lyon was reported as having seen his sisters at Wheaton Plaza variously at Noon, at 1PM and at 2PM, depending on the article you read. The 1PM report of him seeing them at the Center near the Easter Bunny display is the most probable.

Jay did not drive, so he probably walked the same route that they did, at least the portion on Drumm and Faulkner.

Depending on how you interpret the above quote from his mother, he had returned home by about 3:30PM or sometime after that, but definitely before 6PM.

There is no account of where Joe was that day after 11:30. He did not go with his mother to the bowling alley, and probably did not stay at home, because of the statement that "The boys had come home by then."

So Joe either went to Wheaton Plaza with Jay, or perhaps went to a nearby friend's house to play.

Police stated that they went door to door asking questions and taking statements, and searching houses. So I am sure that they know who said they were home and who said they were not. But they did not make any of that public. The article quoted above can be read in its entierty in the News Article thread of this case. It makes reference to some neighbors who were home that day and some who were not.

 

[SharetheLight]

Here is what we know:
We know the girls were at Wheaton Plaza on 3/25/75 between the hours of 12 noon and 2pm. We know they talked to many people, but weren't seen leaving with anyone. In fact, they weren't seen leaving at all.

We really don't know much more than that. Did they make it out of the mall? It seems so, but there has been controversy over sightings.
Did they make it out of the parking lot? It seems so, but again controversy over the sightings.
Were they going home after the mall? It appears they were, but they could have planned to stop somewhere else along the way. Did they??
Did they make it home after the mall? It appears they did not, but no one was home to verify this and we have no account by neighbors, so who knows?

With all of this uncertainty the girls could have been abducted in the mall, in the parking lot, on the street, in a house or somewhere else they may have stopped along the way, or in their own house.
Who could have done this? A stranger, an acquaintance, a family friend, an authority figure.
What was the perp doing? targeting the Lyon girls, just trolling, or a child sex offender who saw an opportunity and acted.

With all of these unknowns it is foolish of us to narrow our focus down to one person, and one scenerio. ANYTHING could have happened to these girls. I personally don't believe there is zero evidence in this case. I believe there is something. some clue as to who took the girls, from where, and when.

So let's try to put our sleuthing hats in high gear and get these girls home to a proper resting spot and get some answers for this family. Just think if it were your girls.

 

[Motherof5]

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Motherof5]

Do we know if the girls were wearing any jewelry that day?

 

[Richard]

Do we know if the girls were wearing any jewelry that day?

None of the posters or news articles ever stated that they wore jewelry. It is possible, however, that they did.

Sheila had pierced ears and her most recent school photo (the one seen on all of the websites) shows her wearing small posts or simple gold ball earings. It is very likely that she was wearing earrings that day.

Kate did NOT have pierced ears, but had evidently asked her mother to have them pierced. Kate loved jewelry and had a collection of over a dozen rings, often wearing them on all of her fingers at the same time. She may have had one or more on that day.

Kate also liked to make bead chokers and might have been wearing one that day, although she wore a gold turtleneck top that day which would have covered it.

It is not stated, but it is possible that one or both girls may have been wearing a watch that day, as they were aware of the time they were planning to be home.

Both girls were fashion conscious and took care in how they dressed. Their outfits are described in a recent message that I posted. Selecting the right jewelry to go with their outfits to go to the mall was probably something that they considered before leaving home.

 

[Motherof5]

None of the posters or news articles ever stated that they wore jewelry. It is possible, however, that they did.

Sheila had pierced ears and her most recent school photo (the one seen on all of the websites) shows her wearing small posts or simple gold ball earings. It is very likely that she was wearing earrings that day.

Kate did NOT have pierced ears, but had evidently asked her mother to have them pierced. Kate loved jewelry and had a collection of over a dozen rings, often wearing them on all of her fingers at the same time. She may have had one or more on that day.

Kate also liked to make bead chokers and might have been wearing one that day, although she wore a gold turtleneck top that day which would have covered it.

It is not stated, but it is possible that one or both girls may have been wearing a watch that day, as they were aware of the time they were planning to be home.

Both girls were fashion conscious and took care in how they dressed. Their outfits are described in a recent message that I posted. Selecting the right jewelry to go with their outfits to go to the mall was probably something that they considered before leaving home.

Richard, thank you so much for this great info!!! I always enjoy your posts even if we don't always agree.I'm trying to figure out what the girls personalities were like to decide what I think they may or may not have done that day.Sheila seemed to be shy,this makes me think that she wouldn't go with a stranger.What do you think about their personalities?