Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #4

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Youshould,
I haven't felt that anyone's questions have been rude or asked with the intention of insulting anyone, anywhere. Sorry if you feel our questions may still 'step on some toes" in SC.....what's wrong with letting the chips fall where they may?


I wasn't accusing anyone of being rude or offensive. It was just a reminder that some of us are from SC and that, as shadetreePI pointed out to me before, SC LE has access to this forum and we'd never want to insult or offend anyone. When we start to get frustrated on this very old case, we can oftentimes post without considering how others will read it. It was nothing more than a reminder and I'm sorry if it was implied that I was referring to something specific.

I feel very close to this case. I do believe that someone knows a lot more than they're telling as far as the murders go. Whether they be LE or a bystander or 'witness' of sorts, I'm not comfortable saying. Justthinkin, if you don't mind, coulld you make a compilation of things that you feel aren't right? Like the changes you claim in Mrs. Moore's story? And the differences you see between the crime scene and morgue photos? Then we can read through them and respond accordingly.
 
news@wmbfnews.com
www.wmbfnews.com

It is possible that one of you can contact the NBC affiliate that just started in the last year for some investigative journalism, from new eyes, who are in the general area, but not worried about "stepping on toes" or the "history" of the media and law enforcement in SC in the past...
 
Youshould,
I haven't felt that anyone's questions have been rude or asked with the intention of insulting anyone, anywhere. Sorry if you feel our questions may still 'step on some toes" in SC.....what's wrong with letting the chips fall where they may?


I wasn't accusing anyone of being rude or offensive. It was just a reminder that some of us are from SC and that, as shadetreePI pointed out to me before, SC LE has access to this forum and we'd never want to insult or offend anyone. When we start to get frustrated on this very old case, we can oftentimes post without considering how others will read it. It was nothing more than a reminder and I'm sorry if it was implied that I was referring to something specific.

I feel very close to this case. I do believe that someone knows a lot more than they're telling as far as the murders go. Whether they be LE or a bystander or 'witness' of sorts, I'm not comfortable saying. Justthinkin, if you don't mind, coulld you make a compilation of things that you feel aren't right? Like the changes you claim in Mrs. Moore's story? And the differences you see between the crime scene and morgue photos? Then we can read through them and respond accordingly.

I have already posted the things I've questioned earlier on this very thread. I never said Ms. Moore changed her story. Show me where I said that.

What I did do was to make reference to story changes in print. All anyone has to do is to read all the newspaper articles listed on these threads to see that's there's obvious inconsistencies.

Usually in a murder case, a reporter would interview someone from LE for accurate details.

Does anyone here actually know the exact bullet placements on the bodies? This has been a huge inconsistency imo. This is something that should have been nailed down long ago and not still subject to questioning.

Sumter and Websleuthers have been all over the globe looking for the UIDs and yet, not one article of clothing that we know they were wearing was made outside the USA, not one.

As for LE, it's time they were approached about the inconsistencies of this case, and given the opportunity to lay them to rest once and for all. That is all I'm asking. These kids can't be identified on rumor, innuendo or flight of fancy.
LE shouldn't be spreading stories that they can't back up with names, places, specific details of their interviews, etc.

I will never understand how Lonnie Henry was allowed to walk, and not charged with the felony possession of a fire-arm with serial numbers partly filed off, and it's the known murder weapon? Sure, LE may not be able to prove he murdered these kids, but they sure could have arrested him on another major felony...but didn't.

Who let him walk, and why? This is the very thing that points to some sort of cover up imo.
 
I have read through most of the 3 threads on this case. I've seen plenty, enough to know to question the sources when the story keeps changing, rather than to keep clinging to the sources.

Because the source that we were discussing was Mrs. Moore, I don't think it's a huge leap to read it as such.

Regardless, I was asking you to compile a post of discrepencies so that we could review them as a whole. I've been reading the updates with this thread and am aware that you've been posting discrepencies as you come across them. I thought that it would be beneficial to the thread for you to make a list that we can all review and respond to. If it's too much of a problem, just say so.

As far as the story changes go, it isn't uncommon. That could also reflect on the journalism, not just the LE. Also, with the case being almost 43 years old, I'd imagine there have been several different officers assigned to the case over the years. That could also account to changes in stories, considering they may not be as familiar with the case as the previous officer. That's just my thoughts.
 
I have read through most of the 3 threads on this case. I've seen plenty, enough to know to question the sources when the story keeps changing, rather than to keep clinging to the sources.

Because the source that we were discussing was Mrs. Moore, I don't think it's a huge leap to read it as such.
As far as the story changes go, it isn't uncommon. That could also reflect on the journalism, not just the LE. Also, with the case being almost 43 years old, I'd imagine there have been several different officers assigned to the case over the years. That could also account to changes in stories, considering they may not be as familiar with the case as the previous officer. That's just my thoughts.

Yes it is a huge leap. Just because someone would have the means to do something does not mean they did, but it does mean that it should be looked at as being within the realm of possibility. It's common sense; that's all I'm saying.

I can list the discrepancies, but what's to make me think there will be any more discussion about them now when there wasn't before?

Yes, I'm fairly new to this case. I read on a few others, but this one jumped out at me, and for awhile there, it was all I thought about day and night, sometimes spending 15 or even 20 hours a day reading and researching. That said, I am not here to claim jump.
I sincerely respect the perseverance of those of you who've been working on this a lot longer than I have. I do think I bring new things to the table that I believe are worthy of attention and discussion.
 
Yes it is a huge leap. Just because someone would have the means to do something does not mean they did, but it does mean that it should be looked at as being within the realm of possibility. It's common sense; that's all I'm saying.

I can list the discrepancies, but what's to make me think there will be any more discussion about them now when there wasn't before?

Yes, I'm fairly new to this case. I read on a few others, but this one jumped out at me, and for awhile there, it was all I thought about day and night, sometimes spending 15 or even 20 hours a day reading and researching. That said, I am not here to claim jump.
I sincerely respect the perseverance of those of you who've been working on this a lot longer than I have. I do think I bring new things to the table that I believe are worthy of attention and discussion.

My bold/italics. If you are looking for a vote, then I for one would appreciate it. We are putting together a "cheat sheet" on the Benjaman Kyle case for similar reasons-so many posts and stuff get's lost.

As the world gets smaller and smaller, I am hoping the energy behind this case will get it solved....:twocents:
 
It's been a long time since I even looked at this couple, so maybe this was mentioned.

Has anyone ever looked at the Amish community?
When they get a certain age they are allowed to leave for a certain amount of time, if they don't come back the family disowns them IIRC..

I'm almost positive I had the one ring Jane did with the feather and 2 stones. I don't recall mine being as good of quality though.

FWIW, there looks to be so many poor quality pictures and drawings of this couple that it would be nice if the LE would rescan the originals larger. I'm almost positive I saw another image while surfing this morning of the crime scene taken from a different angle. Unfortunately our internet keeps going down today I've had to restart. I'll see if I can find it.


What I've been doing to get the word out about these cases I'm reading is to click the share icon to add to my facebook page, I've then been adding the myspace links, there are 3 that I've found that have photos.

I think I might have figured out what the initials "JPF" means. Through my research I have discovered that there is a Navajo artist who signs his initials JPF on the jewelry he designs. Here is a link to an item where the initials are mentioned: http://santafe.craigslist.org/jwl/1015587013.html

The person who posted this said the piece used to be owned by his grandfather and was given to him by his mother ten years ago. If his grandfather owned it then we have to assume that it must have been around for awhile.

Here's another item: http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/Fron...quoise_Sterling_Silver_Bolo_Tie_By_JPF_Artist

Is it possible that JPF is actually the initials of this artist and not Jacques?

Okay, I did some research on Bulova Accutron watches and here's what I found out:

Serial numbers that began with a letter were made in the USA (ex. A12345). So, the watch that "Jock" was wearing had a serial number of H918803 which means it was made in the USA. Each watch had a serial number and underneath a 2-digit age marker made up of one letter and one number. Here are some examples:

A9 = 1949 (this was the first dating done)
L0-L9 - 1950's, L0 = 1950, L1 = 1951..... L9 = 1959
M0-M9 - 1960's, M0 = 1960, M1 = 1961....etc... toM6 = 1966, etc.
N0-N9 - 1970's. N3 = 1973, etc.

According to the coroner's report, this watch was made in 1968 so I'm assuming the 2-digit age marker was M8 on the watch. Can anyone verify this?

Also, production of this type of watch stopped in 1977. And this information comes from Bulova's website: "Starting in 1948 Bulova began marking the back of watch cases with the year of the watch. To determine the age of a watch made prior to 1948, you would need to send it to Bulova service, as the only year indication for these watches is inside the casing. For watches from 1948 and 1949 the actual year is printed. After that, a letter denoting the decade followed by the digit of the year is marked. This practice began in the '50s, with the letter L. M signified the '60s, N the '70s, P the '80s, T the '90s and A the '00s (2000). So, for example, if P9 is on the case back, the watch was manufactured in 1989. The only way to know the value of a watch, unfortunately, is to have it appraised by a professional jewelry appraiser."

You might think to add this to the jewelry thread. Good info
 
In a much earlier post someone posted this

Dr Phillip Jacques Fourie

306-783-4999

The man was suspected of having been the boy's father, but I can't find where someone called him to find out. In fact, everyone was scared of him after having seen his pic and no one wanted to call him and say, You don't know me but...

Has anyone called this dr? He was the right age to be the boys father and was a prominent doctor in Canada at the time, president even for a while of the hospital. So... If no one has called him I would have to say we SHOULD. and right away. Before he dies and maybe if he is the dad, never finds out what happened to his son. And a letter? Welp I would rather just call him having the phone number. But I won't do it, if someone else has already and he was just a dead end.

How do we find out if he was called by anyone here?
 
Please help me go through the old posts and skim through find out if he was called?
 
In a much earlier post someone posted this

Dr Phillip Jacques Fourie

306-783-4999

The man was suspected of having been the boy's father, but I can't find where someone called him to find out. In fact, everyone was scared of him after having seen his pic and no one wanted to call him and say, You don't know me but...

Has anyone called this dr? He was the right age to be the boys father and was a prominent doctor in Canada at the time, president even for a while of the hospital. So... If no one has called him I would have to say we SHOULD. and right away. Before he dies and maybe if he is the dad, never finds out what happened to his son. And a letter? Welp I would rather just call him having the phone number. But I won't do it, if someone else has already and he was just a dead end.

How do we find out if he was called by anyone here?



There was a Dr. Robert Roy Forsey.

I did a side by side with him and John Doe back in Sept 07

1959Roy-P-Forsey.jpg
6-2-John-Doe-Sketch-Photo.jpg


Mrs. Moore called him back then and he said he didn't have a son. But I think this is the guy people were afraid to call because he looked kind of mean..and we remarked that the nose was kind of similar and they had the same bushy eyebrows.

froggierintexas posted this in Sept 07 thread #2, post #167

Dr. Phillip Jacques Fourie
269 Bradbrooke Drive
Yorkton SK S3N 3L3
Phone (306) 783-4999

This is the one you posted about and he's a different doctor. I don't know that anyone ever called him because I can't find a follow up on it. I think Dr. Forsey might have been the only doctor with the last name starting with F who was ever called but I'm not sure.

If you go to thread #2, post 171, rmf provided a whole list of physicians with the last names starting with F. I don't know who was called or was not called from that list.

Here's the link to the previous thread where you can see most of the info about the doctors and also the 2 posts I mentioned above by rmf and froggierintexas.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54846&page=7
 
A portion of this post was deleted as I thought Fortier's pictures had been taken down, but they're still googlable (haw) images.

Dr. Fortier looked very much like one of the photos of our John Doe. This doctor is now deceased. Elliot had made contact with someone in Saskatchewan who was helping him. We need an update, elliott!!

The girl's rings appear to be nothing more than cheap costume jewelry like that which can be found at truck stops. The ring that once held 3 stones may be silver, but the others appear to be alloys.

Sorry, I don't know how to make the pictures smaller.
 

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Does anyone know if LE has looked into S./C. America?

What if Jacq. & Jane were fleeing from the dictatorship overthrow in Chile, for instance?

1000s of folks missing, and some of the similarities on side by sides made my stomach drop...uncanny.
 
Dr fortier looks a LOT like the john doe. WOW. Very similar. Did he have any other family? A DNA sample could show if these men were related.
 
I just wrote to the Fortier's of Canada not sure if it is the same family anyways they r having a family reunion soon and I wrote to them asking if they are the same family as the Dr Fortier we are speaking of. I told them about the case and asked them if he was a part of their family. If they say yes, a DNA test may be in order.
 
Fortier is known to have had a daughter. elliott posted a link to a slideshow several pages back on this thread which shows father and daughter together.

I can't imagine though why the daughter wouldn't have been looking for her brother even if her parents disowned him. Perhaps he was a son from an earlier marriage & she didn't even know about him. It happens. Happened to me.

Laura, ask if the doctor was married more than once before you bring up our John Doe, otherwise you could just hear a resounding no if you straight out ask about the possibility of a son. I didn't even learn that my dad had been married before until after his death. I had half-siblings I didn't know about.

Keep us posted please.
 
I just wrote to the Fortier's of Canada not sure if it is the same family anyways they r having a family reunion soon and I wrote to them asking if they are the same family as the Dr Fortier we are speaking of. I told them about the case and asked them if he was a part of their family. If they say yes, a DNA test may be in order.

Fortier is known to have had a daughter. elliott posted a link to a slideshow several pages back on this thread which shows father and daughter together.

I can't imagine though why the daughter wouldn't have been looking for her brother even if her parents disowned him. Perhaps he was a son from an earlier marriage & she didn't even know about him. It happens. Happened to me.

Laura, ask if the doctor was married more than once before you bring up our John Doe, otherwise you could just hear a resounding no if you straight out ask about the possibility of a son. I didn't even learn that my dad had been married before until after his death. I had half-siblings I didn't know about.

Keep us posted please.

Does anyone have Ancestry.com World Deluxe? Are there birth records for Canada on there?? I have ancestry but just the basic version, so I cannot tell....
 
I just wrote to the Fortier's of Canada not sure if it is the same family anyways they r having a family reunion soon and I wrote to them asking if they are the same family as the Dr Fortier we are speaking of. I told them about the case and asked them if he was a part of their family. If they say yes, a DNA test may be in order.
Good work, Laura! I also contacted someone from the Canadian Medical Hall of Fame who is researching Dr. Fortier's background in addition to checking out to see if any other doctors or physicians were missing a son during the early to mid 1970s. I apologize for only making sporadic posts on the board, but rest assured that I have not forgotten about this.
 
Fortier is known to have had a daughter. elliott posted a link to a slideshow several pages back on this thread which shows father and daughter together.

I can't imagine though why the daughter wouldn't have been looking for her brother even if her parents disowned him. Perhaps he was a son from an earlier marriage & she didn't even know about him. It happens. Happened to me.

Laura, ask if the doctor was married more than once before you bring up our John Doe, otherwise you could just hear a resounding no if you straight out ask about the possibility of a son. I didn't even learn that my dad had been married before until after his death. I had half-siblings I didn't know about.

Keep us posted please.
It is possible. I still believe that John Doe was a Canadian and that there is a strong resemblance between he and Dr. Fortier.
 
I translated this from French to English as best as I could from a Quebec website on Dr. Fortier.

I oriented myself towards the biomedical research because this is the most wonderful intellectual adventure in which I could be involved myself. For me, to attack itself to the solution of a bit of the mystery of life is a fascinating quest. For the complexity of a single living cell is, without protests, bigger than the one of the body of the cosmos, declares Claude Fortier. The one to that one has the endocrinology leap to the Quebec expresss thus all sound wonder with regard to the research. His scientific curiosity finds his expression in the interaction study between the emotions, the functioning of the brain and the hormonal checks. Its works will open the way to the discovery of the sector of not at all modern physiology that is the neuroendocrinologie. Jacques Genest specifies besides to his subject that one can summarize the whole life of Claude Fortier while saying that it was literally a giant on the scientific, medical plan and intellectual and that it gave all sound energy to the progress of the science.

The exploration of the modern physiology

Student in medicine, Claude Fortier already perceives in the years 40, check importance exercised by the nervous system on the endocrine glands, an unexplored domain to the era. The orientation of research of the professor specifies himself at the time of his stay to the laboratory of Hans Selye, researcher of the University of become Montreal leader in the anxiety study. This training allows the doctor Fortier to launch truly his career. It elaborates, with its colleagues (of which the doctor Roger Guillemin, price Nobel of physiology and of medicine in 1977), biological principles that drive to the creation of the neuroendocrinologie. Indeed, it is the one of the all first researchers, to the world-wide ladder, to show clearly influences it sensory stimuli (the sound, the light) and emotional stimuli (anger, the fear, frustration) on the secretion of ACTH, commonly called the "anxiety hormone.

Claude Fortier tries from that time to put in evidence the underlying mechanism to such reactions, which the brings to work to the University of London, in collaboration with the professor Geoffrey W. Harris, the one of the rare specialists of the neuroendocrinologie. The works of the two researchers, that concern the brain hormones, today are considered as constituent classics bases it of a better comprehension of the endocrinal systems.

The fame continually growing the doctor Fortier attracts the attention of the environments of the research. One invites it thus to direct the first laboratory of neuroendocrinologie in America to the University of Baylor, to the Texas, where it is equally professor. It there rediscovers his colleague, Roger Guillemin, with that it elaborates, among others, which is recognized then as the better biological essay allowing measuring the anxiety hormone.

The research in endocrinology

The doctor Fortier plays a role of first importance in the beginnings of the neuroendocrinologie to the international ladder: Claude Fortier awakened with the young researchers the flame of the biomedical research in several domains, what's more of the one of the endocrinology that became today a sector of excellence of the research to the Quebec, recognizes the doctor Maurice Norman, Department of physiology of the University Laval. This is besides the one of the objectives of the professor, to his return to the Quebec in 1960, to fill the serious gaps of the biomedical research. For there to arrive, it sets up the Laboratory of endocrinology of the Faculty of medicine of the University Laval. It assumes equally for twenty years the direction of the Department of physiology, posts occupied since 1990 by the doctor Fernand Labrie, founder and current director since 1982 of the Center of research of the hospital Center of the University Laval (CHUL) and one of the more brilliant students of Claude Fortier.

The laboratory of Claude Fortier, because of his fame growing, welcomes quickly researchers of all origins. This period is doubtless the most fertile one of the career of the researcher. Its works, turned towards the big problems of the endocrinology, furnish new interpretations of the relations between the central nervous systems and endocrinal. These observations allow elucidating several important aspects of the regulating mechanisms of the endocrine functions as well as interactions between these glands. In addition, it shows hormonal influences on the behavior and on the aptitude to apprenticeship, attracting thus the attention on the world-wide plan.

Fascinated basic research, Claude Fortier is interested before all to the knowledge acquisition. The principles physiologiques basic that it releases by experimentation find nevertheless several applications. Thus, certain aspects of its works on the protein role securing plasma, notably the transcortine, in hormonal adjustments, constitute of the non negligible stakes of the recent progress accomplish in the hormonal treatment of the cancer of the prostate.

The role of the data processing in the domain of the biomedical research

The resourceful spirit characterizing Claude Fortier reveals itself all particularly in the middle of the years 60, when it introduces the data processing within the biomedical research, notably in modern physiology. It uses it not only for the analysis of the experimental data, but also for the elaboration of mathematical models of the dynamics of the secretion of various hormones and for the simulation of mechanisms of endocrinal regulation. To the era, this approach shows a big originality.

Scientific engaged and deeply preoccupied by the place of the research in the corporation, the doctor Fortier, alongside its scientific works, contributes to the political ones and to the orientations of the medical research to the country by the mediated one numerous responsibilities that it assumes in the biggest provincial scientific organisms and national. During all these years of scientific activities marked to the seal of the dynamism and wonder, it transmits to its successors the taste of the basic research. Even after his arisen death April 22 1986, his influence perpetuates itself in the international recognition of the sector of excellence that became the Quebec endocrinology.
 
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