Ned's Final Theory-Lou Smit are you still reading here?

[Nedthan Johns]

Charlie: So lets assume now the ramseys are guilty an no intruder exists. Why on earth would john volunteer the information about the blocked chair it only goes against his cause for an inturder doing this is bizaree act. Why on earth did he say this?

Ned: I believe John during his interview with Lou was beginning to realize things weren’t adding up. He may have slipped and was back peddling to get out of it. But what he said CLEARLY implicates him in this crime prior to the 911 call IMO. This statement alone stands on its own. This is why there were NO more interviews between the Ramsey’s and the police. So now we have an intruder that blocked entrance to a room that he entered and exited out of. What a crafty intruder and very clean and neat too. He even took time to feed the child. It’s all a bunch of BS and the Ramsey’s have gotten away with it for years.

 

[Solace]

I most definitely think John Ramsey was down in that basement prior to the body being discovered. I believe it was most likely prior to the 911 call, because he had very little time from the time the police were called until they arrived at the home. He lied about many things. First of all both Fleet and detective French searched that basement prior to John disappearing at 10am and both of them entered the room with the window that led outside. Neither one of them reported having to move items to get into that room, and neither one of them reported finding the window open. In fact Fleet White looked closely enough at the window that he reported that it was closed but not locked. So how could it have gotten open a 1/8 of an inch and items were actually blocking the entrance of that room when John searched the area as he reported at 10am? It suggests to me he was down there prior to that time, and in his testimony got caught in a lie. And who in their right mind would search that basement find an open window and NOT report it? John was trying to suggest when he was being questioned that an intruder may have gotten through that window, that’s WHY he mentioned finding it open. Now WHY DIDN’T Lou Smit catch this and call him on it?

Ned: Thank you for your answer. I swear I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am not following you at all. John says he searched the basement between 7 and 9. He said the chair was there, he moved it, checked the room, left the room and moved the chair back. Fleet White checks the room when he arrives; does not mention the blocking chair, nor does French. Fleet no longer goes down the except when they find jonbenet at 1:00. There are also crime scene photos of the chair. Why does it suggest Jon was there earlier. I am not doubting it, but why do you say it proves he was there prior to the call.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Chrishope: First we need to consider that there may never have been a chair with "stuff" piled on it. He may not have confused his 10am trip to the basement with an earlier trip, he may just be making stuff up.

Second, he may have realized by then that the more things don't make sense, the less likely the Rs will be arrested.

Ned: Good point. Also didn’t JR tell Melinda’s boyfriend Stewart at the time, he found the body earlier than when he apparently did? This is also HUGE.

 

[Solace]

Chrishope: First we need to consider that there may never have been a chair with "stuff" piled on it. He may not have confused his 10am trip to the basement with an earlier trip, he may just be making stuff up.

Ned, there are crime scene photos of the chair blocking the door. This is what is so confusing. They came in and photographed it that day. It is in the interview. So that this is why I am pressing you for a more complete explanation of why the chair blocking the door PROVES john was there before 911. Pretend I am an idiot, which I cam beginning to feel like right about now, but I do not see why he would make that up if it does not help his case and also THEY HAVE THE CRIME SCENE PHOTOS. THE CHAIR IS THERE.

So help me.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Solace: Ned, Thank you for your answer. I swear I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am not following you at all. John says he searched the basement between 7 and 9. He said the chair was there, he moved it, checked the room, left the room and moved the chair back.

Ned: No problem Solace, its got me re-thinking it too. I think this is very important to the case obviously because it goes against everything an intruder would do. First of all you are suggesting there are crime scene photos showing the chair there after they found JB. Do we know this for fact? Do we have photos floating on line that we could review? Anyone?

What I was pointing out is that neither Fleet or detective French who searched that basement mention having to move items to enter that room, and had they, why on earth would they have moved them back? Better yet, why would JOHN RAMSEY, move those items and reportedly find an open window and then NOT only NOT report it, but block entrance to the room AGAIN? This PROVES he is lying.

If the chair and items are there in crime scene photos, then John was down doing staging because Fleet and French never mention having to move them to enter the room and certainly didn’t move them back after. So why was John moving things around in the basement prior to him discovering JB’s body?

However you are right, it doesn’t prove for certain he was in that basement prior to the 911 call, however now it would be certain he was there prior to finding JB’s body and if so, again he is caught in another lie. But as one poster pointed out, he could be lying about the whole thing just to add more crap to the mix. The question would be was the chair there in crime scene photos, or not?

There used to be a site with the crime scene photos posted, anyone have that link still?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html

I found this site but no photos of the outside of the room

 

[Solace]

Solace: Ned, Thank you for your answer. I swear I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am not following you at all. John says he searched the basement between 7 and 9. He said the chair was there, he moved it, checked the room, left the room and moved the chair back.

Ned: No problem Solace, its got me re-thinking it too. I think this is very important to the case obviously because it goes against everything an intruder would do. First of all you are suggesting there are crime scene photos showing the chair there after they found JB. Do we know this for fact? Do we have photos floating on line that we could review? Anyone?

God love you for replying. I have the transcripts and prior to the transcripts, it says John is shown crime scene photos of the basement and one is of the chair blocking the wine cellar door. This is from the NE Book that just has the interviews.

What I was pointing out is that neither Fleet or detective French who searched that basement mention having to move items to enter that room, and had they, why on earth would they have moved them back? Better yet, why would JOHN RAMSEY, move those items and reportedly find an open window and then NOT only NOT report it, but block entrance to the room AGAIN? This PROVES he is lying.

I agree with you that one of them would have mentioned it. But what is the point to put a chair there. He may very well have gone downstairs and staged. Remember he was gone for a while. BUT WHY IS HE DOING THIS. It only hurts his theory of an intruder. I am going to have a myocardial right here and now. I wish you were in the room so we could talk. I love this

Also remember he is not aware that Fleet White was down there early in the am. He is asked this and says I did not know he was down there. I can find it, but just not this minute.

If the chair and items are there in crime scene photos, then John was down doing staging because Fleet and French never mention having to move them to enter the room and certainly didn’t move them back after. So why was John moving things around in the basement prior to him discovering JB’s body?

However you are right, it doesn’t prove for certain he was in that basement prior to the 911 call, however now it would be certain he was there prior to finding JB’s body and if so, again he is caught in another lie. But as one poster pointed out, he could be lying about the whole thing just to add more crap to the mix. The question would be was the chair there in crime scene photos, or not?

There used to be a site with the crime scene photos posted, anyone have that link still?

Thanks so muc for replying Ned.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

I am convinced now after reviewing the crime scene photos on the link provided above that JB was never put to bed that night. The intruder would have had to have moved the pillow, pull back the blanket. Plus her bladder emptied at the time of her death. Had she wet the bed and Patsy went into a rage and murdered her there would have been no urine in her system. Burke reported that JB was awake and helped walk in gifts that night. I believe him. A panicked mother would not have placed worn clothes back on her bed in a staged scene. JB never made it to bed that night

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Solace: God love you for replying. I have the transcripts and prior to the transcripts, it says John is shown crime scene photos of the basement and one is of the chair blocking the wine cellar door. This is from the NE Book that just has the interviews.

Ned: Okay I have forgotten, what is the NE Book?

Solace: I agree with you that one of them would have mentioned it. But what is the point to put a chair there. He may very well have gone downstairs and staged. Remember he was gone for a while. BUT WHY IS HE DOING THIS. It only hurts his theory of an intruder. I am going to have a myocardial right here and now. I wish you were in the room so we could talk. I love this

Ned: My thinking is, that he was hoping JB would be found earlier. He knows at this point the FBI are going to arrive at the scene soon, since this is still being considered a kidnapping. Perhaps he was undoing some staging, ie. Suitcase by the window, broken glass, etc. I’m not sure. Perhaps that’s why he mentions he was the one that he broke the window that summer. I always found this hard to believe, that JR would crawl through a dirty basement window in business clothes, especially where there were so many keys floating around, but then never took the time to repair it? Again, what idiot would not repair a broken window to a 600K plus home? What this testimony proves it that JR was lying. I did not know that JR didn’t know that Fleet was down there earlier. Interesting. If I could interview anyone from this case, it would have to be Fleet White. He’s the only one that had enough integrity to keep his mouth shut and the fact that he is no longer friends with Ramsey, speaks volumes to me.

 

[Solace]

Solace: God love you for replying. I have the transcripts and prior to the transcripts, it says John is shown crime scene photos of the basement and one is of the chair blocking the wine cellar door. This is from the NE Book that just has the interviews.

Ned: Okay I have forgotten, what is the NE Book?

Dont get nervous. It is the National Enquirer book, BUT, it is ONLY AND I REPEAT ONLY, 1997 interviews of John and Patsy and the 2000 interviews of John and Patsy.

Solace: I agree with you that one of them would have mentioned it. But what is the point to put a chair there. He may very well have gone downstairs and staged. Remember he was gone for a while. BUT WHY IS HE DOING THIS. It only hurts his theory of an intruder. I am going to have a myocardial right here and now. I wish you were in the room so we could talk. I love this

Ned: My thinking is, that he was hoping JB would be found earlier. He knows at this point the FBI are going to arrive at the scene soon, since this is still being considered a kidnapping. Perhaps he was undoing some staging, ie. Suitcase by the window, broken glass, etc. I’m not sure. Perhaps that’s why he mentions he was the one that he broke the window that summer. I always found this hard to believe, that JR would crawl through a dirty basement window in business clothes, especially where there were so many keys floating around, but then never took the time to repair it? Again, what idiot would not repair a broken window to a 600K plus home? What this testimony proves it that JR was lying. I did not know that JR didn’t know that Fleet was down there earlier. Interesting. If I could interview anyone from this case, it would have to be Fleet White. He’s the only one that had enough integrity to keep his mouth shut and the fact that he is no longer friends with Ramsey, speaks volumes to me.

Andrew Hodges wrote two books on this case. You may agree or disagree with his writings. It is a different technique concerning the subconscious. He says that John, before being interviewed by Diane Sawyer, rebroke the basement window, for that interview.

WHERE ARE WE GOING TO GET FLEET'S INTERVIEW. I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT.

 

[Charlie]

My question is why does it lead us to believe that he was down there before just because Fleet White and French do not mention it. The fact is there are crime scene photos of the chair blocking the door. John admits he moved it when he went down there between 7 and 9 that morning.

This damn timeline makes my head hurt but i'm going to try and grasp it. Solace, i hadnt known that John admitted to LS that he had been down to the basement between 7 and 9 that morning. I know that he could have gone down around 10am as he disappeared for a while and speculation lead us to believe it was to the basement. The only thing we know as FACT of John being in the basement was at 1pm. Solace, could provide me evidence that john admitted his trip to the basement between 7 an 9 please, a transcript if possible. I dont doubt you, but need to see it in order to bank it in memory as accurate. Now assuming you are correct and John did indeed make his FIRST trip to the basement between 7 and 9, and thats when he saw the blocked chair, wouldnt u agree that it suggests he may gotton confused about seeing it before the 911 call as officer french and fleet who examined the basement shortly after their arrival, french getting there at like 5:45 am and fleet at 6:30 and seeing NO blocked chair, and all before 7am

Solace, another interesting point you made was about the crime scene photo of this blocked chair. Have you seen this photo? If so does the photo show the chair blocking the entry of the hobby room or just show a chair within or near its vicinity?

 

[Charlie]

First we need to consider that there may never have been a chair with "stuff" piled on it. He may not have confused his 10am trip to the basement with an earlier trip, he may just be making stuff up.

Second, he may have realized by then that the more things don't make sense, the less likely the Rs will be arrested.

Chrishope, i have thought of this possibility that john mde the story about the chair up, but waiting to here what Solace says about there being actual crime scene photos proving this.

If john did make this all up it would seem unlikely as the whole chair scenario plays very badly for him, as it shows how unlikely it would be for an inturder to place a chair infront of the door hes exiting behind.

 

[Solace]

This damn timeline makes my head hurt but i'm going to try and grasp it. Solace, i hadnt known that John admitted to LS that he had been down to the basement between 7 and 9 that morning. I know that he could have gone down around 10am as he disappeared for a while and speculation lead us to believe it was to the basement. The only thing we know as FACT of John being in the basement was at 1pm. Solace, could provide me evidence that john admitted his trip to the basement between 7 an 9 please, a transcript if possible. I dont doubt you, but need to see it in order to bank it in memory as accurate. Now assuming you are correct and John did indeed make his FIRST trip to the basement between 7 and 9, and thats when he saw the blocked chair, wouldnt u agree that it suggests he may gotton confused about seeing it before the 911 call as officer french and fleet who examined the basement shortly after their arrival, french getting there at like 5:45 am and fleet at 6:30 and seeing NO blocked chair, and all before 7am

Solace, another interesting point you made was about the crime scene photo of this blocked chair. Have you seen this photo? If so does the photo show the chair blocking the entry of the hobby room or just show a chair within or near its vicinity?

Hi Charlie:

I have the book with me and looked it up. It is in the transcripts of the interviews with Lou Smit.

pg. 303: "John said he went down to the basement sometime between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. looking for an intruder. He worked his way through the so-called trian room of the basement, etc.".

Page 313: "Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room".

page 314: Lou Smit interviews John and re same. (Nuisanceposter posted the whole conversation about 5 posts back in this thread).

Charlie, the timeline is what was confusing me. I ALWAYS thought he had gone down from 7-9 and that the 10 time was wrong. I think people are assuming he was down there because Arndt could not find him. (He may well have been, but he says 7 to 9 for about 30 seconds to a minute). He says he went in and had to move the chair and upon leaving, moved it back. I am not following your last paragraph about John getting the time confused. I do not think he got it confused. There are crime scene pictures of the chair in front of the door. John may have been there earlier and placed JB in the wine celler, BUT WHAT HE IS ADMITTING TO is 7-9 a.m searching the first time. And the crime scene photos prove that the chair was in front of the door.

 

[rashomon]

I most definitely think John Ramsey was down in that basement prior to the body being discovered. I believe it was most likely prior to the 911 call, because he had very little time from the time the police were called until they arrived at the home. He lied about many things. First of all both Fleet and detective French searched that basement prior to John disappearing at 10am and both of them entered the room with the window that led outside. Neither one of them reported having to move items to get into that room, and neither one of them reported finding the window open. In fact Fleet White looked closely enough at the window that he reported that it was closed but not locked. So how could it have gotten open a 1/8 of an inch and items were actually blocking the entrance of that room when John searched the area as he reported at 10am? It suggests to me he was down there prior to that time, and in his testimony got caught in a lie. And who in their right mind would search that basement find an open window and NOT report it? John was trying to suggest when he was being questioned that an intruder may have gotten through that window, that’s WHY he mentioned finding it open. Now WHY DIDN’T Lou Smit catch this and call him on it?

Nedthan Jones: is it oficially reported that both Fleet White and detective French entered the basement through the door which led to the train room (called hobby room in PMPT)?
For there is another door to the basement where one enters the boiler room, and that boiler room then leads to the wine cellar (where JB's body was found).

There is no direct way fom the train room to the wine cellar. In order to get from the train room to the wine cellar, one has to leave the basement and re-enter through the other door.

Do you know the source where it says through which of the two doors (to the boiler room or to the train room)Fleet White and det. French entered the basement?

For if neither det. French nor FleetWhite saw a chair blocking the entry to the train room, there exist only two possibilities imo:

a) - John Ramsey had already removed this chair before any of them went down there,

or:

b) - John Ramsey made up the story of the chair blocking the room.

My guess is that there was indeed a chair blocking the room to the train room basement door at the time John carried down JB's body down and wanted to enter the room in the very early morning hours, way before the Ramseys called the police.
For it is typical for liars to weave some elements of truth into their story, and imo this is such an element.

What John Ramseys said about the chair and also what he said about the basement window (that he found it open and closed it) implicates him in the crime.
For which father whose child had just been abducted would merely close a possible entry window and not even mention the open window to the police at once??

NJ, you asked why (the alleged super-detective) Lou Smit didn't catch John on this. Good question with only two possible answers imo:

a) - the retired detective Lou Smit was already suffering from some kind of mental sclerosis which prevented his brain from drawing basic conclusions,

or

b) - Smit's agenda was to give both Ramseys a pass, and he acted accordingly, by e. g. deliberately turning a blind eye to incriminating circumstantial evidence involving them.

Imo it could also have been a combination of both a) and b).

I am convinced now after reviewing the crime scene photos on the link provided above that JB was never put to bed that night.

I have always been convinced of that. I don't think JB ever made it to bed that night.

 

[Solace]

Nedthan Jones: is it oficially reported that both Fleet White and detective French entered the basement through the door which led to the train room (called hobby room in PMPT)?
For there is another door to the basement where one enters the boiler room, and that boiler room then leads to the wine cellar (where JB's body was found).

There is no direct way fom the train room to the wine cellar. In order to get tfrom the train room to the wine cellar, one has to leave the basement and re-enter through the other door.

Do you know the source where it says through which of the two doors (to the boiler room or to the train room)Fleet White and det. French entered the basement?

For if neither det. French nor FleetWhite saw a chair blocking the entry to the train room, there exist only two possibilities imo:

- John Ramsey had already removed this chair before any of them went down there

or:

- John Ramsey concocted the story of the chair.

My guess is that there was indeed a chair blocking the room to the train room basement door at the time John carried down JB's body down and wanted to get into the room. For it is typical for liars to weave some elements of truth into their story, and imo this is such an element.

Waht John Ramseys said about the chair and also what he said about the basement window (that he found it open and closed it) implicates him in the crime.
For which father whose child had just been abducted would merely close a possible entry window and not even mention the open window to the police at once??
You asked why (the allleged super-detective) Lou Smit didn't catch John on this. Good question with only two possible answers imo: -

a) the retired detective Lou Smit was already suffering from some kind of mental sclerosis which prevented his brain from drawing basic conclusions,

or

b) - Smit's agenda was to give both Ramseys a pass, and he acted accordingly, by e. g. deliberately turning a blind eye to incriminating circumstantial evidence involving them.

it could very wel have been a combination of both a) and b)


I have always been convinced of that. I don't think JB ever made it to bed that night.

Rash,

You are so smart. I think the chair was there also and he remembered it and it is not changing. Also NE book says there are photos of the chair. MY QUESTION TO YOU IS THIS.

You don't think she made it to bed that night. Then what happened? Berke apparently knows nothing. What do you think? Tell me. tell me, tell me.

 

[rashomon]

Hi Charlie:

I have the book with me and looked it up. It is in the transcripts of the interviews with Lou Smit.

pg. 303: "John said he went down to the basement sometime between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. looking for an intruder. He worked his way through the so-called trian room of the basement, etc.".

Page 313: "Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room".
page 314: Lou Smit interviews John and re same. (Nuisanceposter posted the whole conversation about 5 posts back in this thread).

Charlie, the timeline is what was confusing me. I ALWAYS thought he had gone down from 7-9 and that the 10 time was wrong. I think people are assuming he was down there because Arndt could not find him. (He may well have been, but he says 7 to 9 for about 30 seconds to a minute). He says he went in and had to move the chair and upon leaving, moved it back. I am not following your last paragraph about John getting the time confused. I do not think he got it confused. There are crime scene pictures of the chair in front of the door. John may have been there earlier and placed JB in the wine celler, BUT WHAT HE IS ADMITTING TO is 7-9 a.m searching the first time. And the crime scene photos prove that the chair was in front of the door.

Solace: thanks so much for mentioning this!
Wow!
- So John Ramsey said he found a chair blocking the door to the train room when he went down to look for JB?
- So per John, the intruder had already disappeared by the time he went down there, right?
- But John Ramsey never said he himself put that chair back in front of the door.
- Now how on earth did that chair end up blocking the train room door again unless John himself put it there?

Do there exist pictures on the net of that chair blocking the train room door? This is very important:
For if yes, this would be the definite proof that John Ramsey lied.

 

[Solace]

Solace: hanks so much for mentioning this!
Wow!
- So John Ramsey said he found a chair blocking the door to the train room when he went down to look for JB?
- So per John, the intruder had already disappeared by the time he went down there, right?
- But John Ramsey never said he himself put that chair back in front of the door.
- Now how on earth did that chair end up blocking the train room door again unless John himself put it there?

Do there exist pictures on the net of that chair blocking the train room door? This is very important:
For if yes, this would be the definite proof that John Ramsey lied.

Rash,

I answered this but it did not take. John tells Lou Smit that he went in and had to move the chair and upon leaving he replaced the chair. He says he was there for 30 seconds (about).

 

[JMO8778]

I did not know that JR didn’t know that Fleet was down there earlier.

I don't know at what point JR found out,but he stated in DOI that he didn't know FW had been in the basement earlier.

 

[Chrishope]

The whole business about the chair raises more questions. If there are crime scene photos of the chair blocking the door, then as Rash says, JR had to have put it back, because FW and Det. French didn't report it blocking the door.

If there are CS photos, it only proves the chair was there when the photo was taken. It didn't become a murder case until 1:05pm, and who knows when the photos were actually taken? If the photo was taken at 6 or 7 am then I'd say we have to wonder why FW and French didn't mention it. But since they didn't, and the photo was probably taken after 1pm, I think we have to wonder why the chair was there later, but not earlier.

Are there really CS photos? And if so, are these "official" e.g. police photos, or Lou Smit photos?

Why would JR put the chair (back) there? I don't know.

 

[JMO8778]

a) - the retired detective Lou Smit was already suffering from some kind of mental sclerosis which prevented his brain from drawing basic conclusions,

or

b) - Smit's agenda was to give both Ramseys a pass, and he acted accordingly, by e. g. deliberately turning a blind eye to incriminating circumstantial evidence involving them.

Imo it could also have been a combination of both a) and b).


I have always been convinced of that. I don't think JB ever made it to bed that night.

I think Smit was hired to say there was an intruder as well. I recall he admitted the RN didn't make any sense,but the way JB was found,with the extra loop tied around her wrist,he thought indicated some kind of sexual play.
Maybe I should start a new thread on this,but is it possible the loops(I am assuming there was on on each wrist,altho it doesn't show 2, as JR says he untied one when he found JB)were used as part of a prior staging,with JB's arms thru the bigger loop, and then hooked onto something else by the smaller ones...like the bedposts on her bed that are shown in the pics of her bedroom(end of the bed).Or perhaps she was staged a bit more in the WC than was let on.I think I recall there was something blacked out there on the official documents.Since we know the garrotte wasn't usable,I can only thing the loops might have been used to hold her arms up onto something,esp with the way JB's arms were found above her head.Any thoughts anyone?