NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 #15

[jaejae]

Here is another recent Podcast about Crowd Sourcing the case:

Just Explain It: Crowdsourcing To Solve Crimes

Crowdsourcing Can Lead to Solving Crimes with Police - TCU Magazine

 

[Lamima]

nvrmd

 

[Stubbsy]

Not being an expert and only recently learning about this case don't think that she will ever be found in any state unfortunately just my opinion but do find the bus driver bit shady even if just by the fact was the last known person to see her alive,not adding he seems contradict himself in the account of the events and his house or his car would be the most easy or at least plausible way to explain no foot prints from MM seen anywhere and also find weird that she would turn down his help and he lived just there to just get in someone stranger car the next minute

 

[Nadal]

Not being an expert and only recently learning about this case don't think that she will ever be found in any state unfortunately just my opinion but do find the bus driver bit shady even if just by the fact was the last known person to see her alive,not adding he seems contradict himself in the account of the events and his house or his car would be the most easy or at least plausible way to explain no foot prints from MM seen anywhere and also find weird that she would turn down his help and he lived just there to just get in someone stranger car the next minute

How did he contradict himself? She likely turned down his help because she was drink driving and he asked her if she wanted him to phone the police, not to mention he was a obese by his and his wifes own words intimidating looking guy. His wife and mother in-law where in his home and two other neighbours saw him at the car without reporting anything off. There was no way he would be able to pull this off and get away with it considering all of that and the tiny amount of time he had and obviously LE looked into him as the last person who saw her. I don't think he's a viable suspect.

Her never walking on the snow would also explain no footprints.

 

[Stubbsy]

How did he contradict himself? She likely turned down his help because she was drink driving and he asked her if she wanted him to phone the police, not to mention he was a obese by his and his wifes own words intimidating looking guy. His wife and mother in-law where in his home and two other neighbours saw him at the car without reporting anything off. There was no way he would be able to pull this off and get away with it considering all of that and the tiny amount of time he had and obviously LE looked into him as the last person who saw her. I don't think he's a viable suspect.

Her never walking on the snow would also explain no footprints.

He claims first she didn't appeared drunk but later that she was slurring and leaning on the car and the wife also said he went look for her if she had put her in the car by then it would be easy to take her somewhere else and would also explain why the dogs lost the track

 

[Nadal]

He claims first she didn't appeared drunk but later that she was slurring and leaning on the car and the wife also said he went look for her if she had put her in the car by then it would be easy to take her somewhere else and would also explain why the dogs lost the track

Faith Westman said Butch was there for 1-2 minutes tops, she saw him drive away then there was a flurry of activity around the car, her and her husband was confused on the gender of the person but she definitely saw somebody. This corroborates Butch's story unless you believe he had an accomplice or Faith is lying for some reason.

"7. Atwood is there 1-2 minutes tops Faith says. 8. Faith sees the driver put on the flashers. 9. Driver goes to the trunk then back to car lights going on and off and She see a red dot on the passengers side."

"After Atwood drove away, Faith Westman noticed the Saturn's interior lights switch on and off and witnessed a flurry of activity at the rear of the car, including a person standing at the trunk, according to private investigator John Smith, who spoke with the Westmans after the accident."

Dogs are fallible, his wife said he went to look for her with Cyril Smith a police officer unless you think he's involved too then that actually points away from Butch. He wasn't driving a car he was driving a bus, and he parked it at his house immediately he didn't take it anywhere.

 

[Stubbsy]

Faith Westman said Butch was there for 1-2 minutes tops, she saw him drive away then there was a flurry of activity around the car, her and her husband was confused on the gender of the person but she definitely saw somebody. This corroborates Butch's story unless you believe he had an accomplice or Faith is lying for some reason.

"7. Atwood is there 1-2 minutes tops Faith says. 8. Faith sees the driver put on the flashers. 9. Driver goes to the trunk then back to car lights going on and off and She see a red dot on the passengers side."

"After Atwood drove away, Faith Westman noticed the Saturn's interior lights switch on and off and witnessed a flurry of activity at the rear of the car, including a person standing at the trunk, according to private investigator John Smith, who spoke with the Westmans after the accident."

Dogs are fallible, his wife said he went to look for her with Cyril Smith a police officer unless you think he's involved too then that actually points away from Butch. He wasn't driving a car he was driving a bus, and he parked it at his house immediately he didn't take it anywhere.

Cecil smith killed himself on the anniversary of the disappearance...heavy conscience or just coincidence? Also faith never said saw her think actually said saw a man then saw lights etc doesn't really make positive identification imo and the bus driver wife myself don't believe in most she says first Cecil was going with butch to look then he didn't went then might have gone etc Cecil was friend of butch then they weren't anymore etc but to answer your question yeah I do believe Cecil was involved in some way there's a apparent"glitch" or mistake in the time or when the first cruiser arrived and how many officer's actually were there after butch discover the accident apparently I'd love to hear though what are your thoughts on What happened to MM

 

[Nadal]

Cecil smith killed himself on the anniversary of the disappearance...heavy conscience or just coincidence? Also faith never said saw her think actually said saw a man then saw lights etc doesn't really make positive identification imo and the bus driver wife myself don't believe in most she says first Cecil was going with butch to look then he didn't went then might have gone etc Cecil was friend of butch then they weren't anymore etc but to answer your question yeah I do believe Cecil was involved in some way there's a apparent"glitch" or mistake in the time or when the first cruiser arrived and how many officer's actually were there after butch discover the accident apparently I'd love to hear though what are your thoughts on What happened to MM

Just agree to disagree on this then as i don't believe Cecil, his wife and Faith were involved in a conspiracy. I'll point out though i never said Faith said she saw her i said she said she saw someone, her and her husband disagreed on whether it was a man or woman which can easily be explained by the time of night and distance from the accident. This also happened before Cecil arrived so it'll have to be some other accomplice which makes 5 in on it now. And Cecil did not kill himself on the anniversary of Maura going missing, she went missing on February 9th, he killed himself on the 22nd.

Also after rereading some things, it was actually Cecil who said she was leaning against the car and slurring her speech, not Butch so he didn't contradict himself. He claimed Butch told him that long after Butch died and couldn't claim otherwise, this to me points towards covering for police incompetence more than covering for a murder especially since he was trying to distance himself from Butch. Lastly i'm pretty sure the time discrepancy was explained well recently but i can't recall what it was exactly, i'll search when i've got time later and get back to you on that.

Can you link to Butch's wife saying he went with Cecil then he didn't go?

I don't have a concrete theory honestly, i think every solution has problems. I think exposure is most likely, followed by killed by a stranger with everything else a lot less likely. Read through the last few pages of this thread i gave some of my reasons.

 

[Stubbsy]

Just agree to disagree on this then as i don't believe Cecil, his wife and Faith were involved in a conspiracy. I'll point out though i never said Faith said she saw her i said she said she saw someone, her and her husband disagreed on whether it was a man or woman which can easily be explained by the time of night and distance from the accident. This also happened before Cecil arrived so it'll have to be some other accomplice which makes 5 in on it now. And Cecil did not kill himself on the anniversary of Maura going missing, she went missing on February 9th, he killed himself on the 22nd.

Also after rereading some things, it was actually Cecil who said she was leaning against the car and slurring her speech, not Butch so he didn't contradict himself. He claimed Butch told him that long after Butch died and couldn't claim otherwise, this to me points towards covering for police incompetence more than covering for a murder especially since he was trying to distance himself from Butch. Lastly i'm pretty sure the time discrepancy was explained well recently but i can't recall what it was exactly, i'll search when i've got time later and get back to you on that.

Can you link to Butch's wife saying he went with Cecil then he didn't go?

I don't have a concrete theory honestly, i think every solution has problems. I think exposure is most likely, followed by killed by a stranger with everything else a lot less likely. Read through the last few pages of this thread i gave some of my reasons.

Not saying faith and hubby are involved butch and Cecil would be enough to pull it off have look at this video it's phone interview with Barbara butch s wife

 

[Nadal]

Not saying faith and hubby are involved butch and Cecil would be enough to pull it off have look at this video it's phone interview with Barbara butch s wife

Thanks, could you tell me the pertinent part as it's 35 minutes long and i don't have time to listen to the whole thing right now? How many years was this after that night, a decade? Her recalling things differently or not being sure is not off to me, if she was perfectly in line with what she initially said i'd actually be more concerned as that could suggest coaching.

Even if Faith and her Hubby isn't involved in your scenario then there still had to be a 2nd accomplice become Faith and her husband are positive they saw someone at the car after they saw Butch leave and it couldn't have been Cecil as he hadn't arrived yet. If it was Maura then that corroborates Butch's story and leaves him no time to carry it out.

 

[Stubbsy]

Just few more thoughts Cecil killed himself less than 24h later replying to he would be on a podcast of someone who also thought he had something to do with the disappearance but only if the lead investigator were there too don't know what it means but find it weird and apparently was only agreeing after long time of being invited and for several times ,not saying Barbara has something to do with it just find that knows more than she says and the lack of interest on her part even on the day of trying to know what was going on seems bit weird

 

[Nadal]

Just few more thoughts Cecil killed himself less than 24h later replying to he would be on a podcast of someone who also thought he had something to do with the disappearance but only if the lead investigator were there too don't know what it means but find it weird and apparently was only agreeing after long time of being invited and for several times ,not saying Barbara has something to do with it just find that knows more than she says and the lack of interest on her part even on the day of trying to know what was going on seems bit weird

Remember that these accidents happened semi-regularly at that bend, that explains everyones disinterest including Barbara. At the time she thought it wasn't notable that it would quickly be sorted and she'd never think about it again. Since then she probably just wants to get on with her life, her and Butch and everyone else there has given their stories several times and are constantly being asked, at some point you'd get tired of it especially since the people asking aren't LE but amateur sleuths and podcast hosts.

 

[Stubbsy]

Thanks, could you tell me the pertinent part as it's 35 minutes long and i don't have time to listen to the whole thing right now? How many years was this after that night, a decade? Her recalling things differently or not being sure is not off to me, if she was perfectly in line with what she initially said i'd actually be more concerned as that could suggest coaching.

Even if Faith and her Hubby isn't involved in your scenario then there still had to be a 2nd accomplice become Faith and her husband are positive they saw someone at the car after they saw Butch leave and it couldn't have been Cecil as he hadn't arrived yet. If it was Maura then that corroborates Butch's story and leaves him no time to carry it out.

Honestly she contradicts herself through the all interview and leaves more questions than answers faith and her husband never even left the house and I'm pretty sure that at that time it was night already could be anyone near the car or not even been anyone just some kind lights that made the impression someone was there Cecil supposedly should have been the first on scene but the fact is that he was driving car 001 or so he says but when car 002 arrives there was no one at the scene and this was also corroborated by witnesses afterwards that all they saw was a police car 002 facing the car but it couldn't have been Cecil so where was he ? I just say Cecil plus butch because they would have the mean and opportunity between them to pull it off and suspect butch because of his statement trying to distance himself and also failing a polygraph and Cecil because something wrong with the acc of events from his part and it would explain why no footprints in the snow and also why Maura would be at easy with Cecil if she wasn't already by now incapacitated somehow by butch and Cecil then helping and both taking her don't know there's no way to say for sure but butch last known to see her with 2 mns maybe apart from Cecil and for all acc he wasn't there when the other police car arrived it's all bit weird imo then the theory that she went in woods and died of exposure seems even more far-fetched to me since no mark's or track's of her going in woods and also she was fit and was actually a track champion even with few drinks don't see her just dying like that so easy

 

[Nadal]

Honestly she contradicts herself through the all interview and leaves more questions than answers faith and her husband never even left the house and I'm pretty sure that at that time it was night already could be anyone near the car or not even been anyone just some kind lights that made the impression someone was there Cecil supposedly should have been the first on scene but the fact is that he was driving car 001 or so he says but when car 002 arrives there was no one at the scene and this was also corroborated by witnesses afterwards that all they saw was a police car 002 facing the car but it couldn't have been Cecil so where was he ? I just say Cecil plus butch because they would have the mean and opportunity between them to pull it off and suspect butch because of his statement trying to distance himself and also failing a polygraph and Cecil because something wrong with the acc of events from his part and it would explain why no footprints in the snow and also why Maura would be at easy with Cecil if she wasn't already by now incapacitated somehow by butch and Cecil then helping and both taking her don't know there's no way to say for sure but butch last known to see her with 2 mns maybe apart from Cecil and for all acc he wasn't there when the other police car arrived it's all bit weird imo then the theory that she went in woods and died of exposure seems even more far-fetched to me since no mark's or track's of her going in woods and also she was fit and was actually a track champion even with few drinks don't see her just dying like that so easy

Again she didn't leave her house because this had happened before more than once and Butch was dealing with it, no one thought anything notable would happen. Faith clearly says she saw someone going into the trunk, you can't explain that away with lights her husband also saw someone, there was someone there unless you believe her and her husband are lying which again brings them in on the conspiracy.

I don't believe Butch had the opportunity to kill her and him phoning the police points away from this. How did he try to distance himself from it? His claimed actions are corroborated by Faith, her husband and his wife. Polygraphs are pseudoscience, they are unreliable and you should never determine guilt or innocence from them, they should not even be considered considering how useless they are. He passed the second one and i don't consider that in his favour because they are completely unreliable, that's a big nothing either way.

She could have went up the road and entered at a different point which would explain no tracks, she also could have had a concussion, she also may have had an undiagnosed one from the first crash a few days before. Complete speculation of course but that would explain erratic and uncharacteristic actions on top of the drink. If she walked into the snow her feet could have got wet which can result in hypothermia quickly setting in, that on top of drinking and concussions would more than adequately explain how she could die out there despite being a hiker and runner. More athletic and experienced hikers than Maura have died in similar circumstances. Anyway, i'm not married to the exposure theory like i said i think they all have problems, i just think under the circumstances it's the most likely. I don't think the Butch and Cecil theory works at all anyway but agree to disagree. Forgot to add no tracks can also be explained by her heading up the road and taking a ride from someone without her ever going into the snow.

 

[Stubbsy]

Again she didn't leave her house because this had happened before more than once and Butch was dealing with it, no one thought anything notable would happen. Faith clearly says she saw someone going into the trunk, you can't explain that away with lights her husband also saw someone, there was someone there unless you believe her and her husband are lying which again brings them in on the conspiracy.

I don't believe Butch had the opportunity to kill her and him phoning the police points away from this. How did he try to distance himself from it? His claimed actions are corroborated by Faith, her husband and his wife. Polygraphs are pseudoscience, they are unreliable and you should never determine guilt or innocence from them, they should not even be considered considering how useless they are. He passed the second one and i don't consider that in his favour because they are completely unreliable, that's a big nothing either way.

She could have went up the road and entered at a different point which would explain no tracks, she also could have had a concussion, she also may have had an undiagnosed one from the first crash a few days before. Complete speculation of course but that would explain erratic and uncharacteristic actions on top of the drink. If she walked into the snow her feet could have got wet which can result in hypothermia quickly setting in, that on top of drinking and concussions would more than adequately explain how she could die out there despite being a hiker and runner. More athletic and experienced hikers than Maura have died in similar circumstances. Anyway, i'm not married to the exposure theory like i said i think they all have problems, i just think under the circumstances it's the most likely. I don't think the Butch and Cecil theory works at all anyway but agree to disagree. Forgot to add no tracks can also be explained by her heading up the road and taking a ride from someone without her ever going into the snow.

He tried to distance himself in his statements saying she left from the drivers side of the car that was hit,damaged and against a snow bank and was never closer from 15-20 ft from him when the most logical way out would be the passenger side and would make her be lot closer and then comes the story of his wife to the press she might have been afraid of his size and etc but can't really believe much she says imo and there was also the hair down I dare you to find 1 pic of her with her hair down even the atm video which is probably the last one of her show's her hair caught with several bobby pins , in any list of belongings or anything that was found related to the case there is nothing that could have been used to hold it either in the car or in any surroundings

 

[PezCandy]

Honestly she contradicts herself through the all interview and leaves more questions than answers faith and her husband never even left the house and I'm pretty sure that at that time it was night already could be anyone near the car or not even been anyone just some kind lights that made the impression someone was there Cecil supposedly should have been the first on scene but the fact is that he was driving car 001 or so he says but when car 002 arrives there was no one at the scene and this was also corroborated by witnesses afterwards that all they saw was a police car 002 facing the car but it couldn't have been Cecil so where was he ? I just say Cecil plus butch because they would have the mean and opportunity between them to pull it off and suspect butch because of his statement trying to distance himself and also failing a polygraph and Cecil because something wrong with the acc of events from his part and it would explain why no footprints in the snow and also why Maura would be at easy with Cecil if she wasn't already by now incapacitated somehow by butch and Cecil then helping and both taking her don't know there's no way to say for sure but butch last known to see her with 2 mns maybe apart from Cecil and for all acc he wasn't there when the other police car arrived it's all bit weird imo then the theory that she went in woods and died of exposure seems even more far-fetched to me since no mark's or track's of her going in woods and also she was fit and was actually a track champion even with few drinks don't see her just dying like that so easy

I don’t believe there was a conspiracy with butch and Cecil, as that’s what it seems like you are saying. What would their reason even be to pull such an act? Especially since they weren’t even technically alone. The 001 car could be explained, simply driver hopped out of 001 and was looking around or could have walked to butches house or neighboring house to see if the owner of vehicle was there. My grandpa has lived on a sharp bend and cars have been going into ditch it rolling etc right across his street for years, when police would come out they would have their vehicle by the totaled one and go door to door to see if the owner of vehicle may be at a house or need help. Very common around where I live especially since winter and snow take up over half the year. I guess that’s why I never thought the 001 cruiser was suspicious. I personally don’t think Butch or Cecil would pull some conspiracy, why would they phone the police? I’m not saying you are wrong tho.
And as for Cecil suicide, he was battling depression, depression in itself is a nightmare, then imagine being accused and harassed by random people that you’re a murderer, that would just make depression so much worse. I don’t really think that suicide is something that’s done out of guilt all the time, there’s many many reasons people do it, sometimes life is just too much to bear.
Quote from my favorite book:
“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view. Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it”

 

[Laughing]

“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view. Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.”

Atticus Finch, To Kill A Mockingbird

 

[Nadal]

He tried to distance himself in his statements saying she left from the drivers side of the car that was hit,damaged and against a snow bank and was never closer from 15-20 ft from him when the most logical way out would be the passenger side and would make her be lot closer and then comes the story of his wife to the press she might have been afraid of his size and etc but can't really believe much she says imo and there was also the hair down I dare you to find 1 pic of her with her hair down even the atm video which is probably the last one of her show's her hair caught with several bobby pins , in any list of belongings or anything that was found related to the case there is nothing that could have been used to hold it either in the car or in any surroundings

Butch said he saw her leave from his bus, he didn't say she left her car while he was talking to her so why does it matter which side he claimed she left? Either way Butch is a distance away in his bus. This does not equal Butch distancing himself from Maura since he was nowhere near her, it means either he was mistaken (which is possible yaknow, you seem to think witnesses get things right 100% of the time even over a decade later) or Maura did something weird which wouldn't be the first time and could be explained by a concussion and/or drunkenness.

Who are you to determine how credible his wife is? The only thing you've said against her is her story isn't completely consistent 15 years later, i've explained why that is arguably a favourable thing since it rules out coaching. If she was lying it would have been so easy to brush up on what she said originally then just repeat it, the inconsistincies suggests that was an off the cuff interview 15 years later and it's not surprising in that instance she'd not be 100% consistent. There's countless examples of this with witnesses who had nothing to do with the incident, our memories are garbage, LE encounter changing witness stories over long periods of time all the time and they don't immediately think they are lying because that's just what happens. That's why their statement closer to the incident is more reliable meaning her initial statements are probably closer to what actually happened.

I seriously can't believe people make such a big deal about her hair. My girlfriend wears her hair up the majority of the time but i've seen her with her hair down plenty, that's because my knowledge of my girlfriend isn't based on a few pictures of her. But since you asked here:

 

[Stubbsy]

I don’t believe there was a conspiracy with butch and Cecil, as that’s what it seems like you are saying. What would their reason even be to pull such an act? Especially since they weren’t even technically alone. The 001 car could be explained, simply driver hopped out of 001 and was looking around or could have walked to butches house or neighboring house to see if the owner of vehicle was there. My grandpa has lived on a sharp bend and cars have been going into ditch it rolling etc right across his street for years, when police would come out they would have their vehicle by the totaled one and go door to door to see if the owner of vehicle may be at a house or need help. Very common around where I live especially since winter and snow take up over half the year. I guess that’s why I never thought the 001 cruiser was suspicious. I personally don’t think Butch or Cecil would pull some conspiracy, why would they phone the police? I’m not saying you are wrong tho.
And as for Cecil suicide, he was battling depression, depression in itself is a nightmare, then imagine being accused and harassed by random people that you’re a murderer, that would just make depression so much worse. I don’t really think that suicide is something that’s done out of guilt all the time, there’s many many reasons people do it, sometimes life is just too much to bear.
Quote from my favorite book:
“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view. Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it”

Ok fair enough on all your points but the car that was there wasn't the 001 that was being used by Cecil but the 002 that was being used by totally different driver and also another coincidence is that about couple mns or something of the sort the call that Cecil went was tom Conrad house I might be totally wrong and just conspiracy nut but it's too much coincidences and unexplained stuff

 

[Stubbsy]

Butch said he saw her leave from his bus, he didn't say she left her car while he was talking to her so why does it matter which side he claimed she left? Either way Butch is a distance away in his bus. This does not equal Butch distancing himself from Maura since he was nowhere near her, it means either he was mistaken (which is possible yaknow, you seem to think witnesses get things right 100% of the time even over a decade later) or Maura did something weird which wouldn't be the first time and could be explained by a concussion and/or drunkenness.

Who are you to determine how credible his wife is? The only thing you've said against her is her story isn't completely consistent 15 years later, i've explained why that is arguably a favourable thing since it rules out coaching. If she was lying it would have been so easy to brush up on what she said originally then just repeat it, the inconsistincies suggests that was an off the cuff interview 15 years later and it's not surprising in that instance she'd not be 100% consistent. There's countless examples of this with witnesses who had nothing to do with the incident, our memories are garbage, LE encounter changing witness stories over long periods of time all the time and they don't immediately think they are lying because that's just what happens. That's why their statement closer to the incident is more reliable meaning her initial statements are probably closer to what actually happened.

I seriously can't believe people make such a big deal about her hair. My girlfriend wears her hair up the majority of the time but i've seen her with her hair down plenty, that's because my knowledge of my girlfriend isn't based on a few pictures of her. But since you asked here:

Butch said he saw her leave from his bus, he didn't say she left her car while he was talking to her so why does it matter which side he claimed she left? Either way Butch is a distance away in his bus. This does not equal Butch distancing himself from Maura since he was nowhere near her, it means either he was mistaken (which is possible yaknow, you seem to think witnesses get things right 100% of the time even over a decade later) or Maura did something weird which wouldn't be the first time and could be explained by a concussion and/or drunkenness.

Who are you to determine how credible his wife is? The only thing you've said against her is her story isn't completely consistent 15 years later, i've explained why that is arguably a favourable thing since it rules out coaching. If she was lying it would have been so easy to brush up on what she said originally then just repeat it, the inconsistincies suggests that was an off the cuff interview 15 years later and it's not surprising in that instance she'd not be 100% consistent. There's countless examples of this with witnesses who had nothing to do with the incident, our memories are garbage, LE encounter changing witness stories over long periods of time all the time and they don't immediately think they are lying because that's just what happens. That's why their statement closer to the incident is more reliable meaning her initial statements are probably closer to what actually happened.

I seriously can't believe people make such a big deal about her hair. My girlfriend wears her hair up the majority of the time but i've seen her with her hair down plenty, that's because my knowledge of my girlfriend isn't based on a few pictures of her. But since you asked here:

Pretty sure he said he left the bus but like said after all this time don't believe that we'll ever know what really happened to her hope I'm wrong though and her family gets some kind of closure ,not only one though with suspicions of butch and Cecil hopefully someone can clear or confirm if any guilt on them have no desire of guilty in any one of them just to be right and if she's really passed away hope it has been with less suffering as possible