Identified! NY - Mount Vernon, WhtFem 51UFNY, 18-25, Left Near Junkyard, Feb'88 - Veronica Wiederhold

[Billylee]

According to the facebook page you provided, Sherry Pickle went missing in 1972 and this doe was found in 1988.

Yeah, I guess she would have been too old, she would have been 32 in 1988 and the UID is said to be no more than 25.

I don't discount however, the possibility that runaway's, living on the streets can't turn up dead some years later far away from wherever they were running from. IMO that just further explains why no one would be looking for them at their time of death. JMO

 

[carbuff]

Yeah, I guess she would have been too old, she would have been 32 in 1988 and the UID is said to be no more than 25.

I don't discount however, the possibility that runaway's, living on the streets can't turn up dead some years later far away from wherever they were running from. IMO that just further explains why no one would be looking for them at their time of death. JMO

I agree with you generally, but the age difference seems a little too much. How do the rest of the descriptions match up?

 

[Cymro]

Sherry was 5'4" and 100 lbs at 15, nearly 16.

Jane was 5'3" and 105 lbs - close enough.

Sherry's hair is "brown" and Jane's is "blonde" but both seem to be reddish given the freckles.

Eyes, for what it's worth, are hazel in both cases.

There are no known dentals for Sherry so no inconsistency either.

No mention of a healed ankle fracture on the Jane Doe. Not sure if there would be necessarily - there'd be 16+ years' bone fusion to hide it if it were a match, or an old injury might not have been reported.

Time, distance and circumstances all militate against it being a match but demographically everything seems okay apart from the age.

 

[carbuff]

Sherry was 5'4" and 100 lbs at 15, nearly 16.

Jane was 5'3" and 105 lbs - close enough.

Sherry's hair is "brown" and Jane's is "blonde" but both seem to be reddish given the freckles.

Eyes, for what it's worth, are hazel in both cases.

There are no known dentals for Sherry so no inconsistency either.

No mention of a healed ankle fracture on the Jane Doe. Not sure if there would be necessarily - there'd be 16+ years' bone fusion to hide it if it were a match, or an old injury might not have been reported.

Time, distance and circumstances all militate against it being a match but demographically everything seems okay apart from the age.

The age seems to be the only thing going against it and the resemblance is very strong. I agree, they both look like their hair is more red than blonde or brown, and age is always funky. I can see a couple of things that make it unlikely, but I can't see anything that makes it impossible.

 

[Billylee]

Yeah, who knows what the circumstances may have been? But, in looking at her, and looking at her, AND looking at her, lol, it seems the eyebrows are set too close together. All else "physical" seems very close to me. Maybe I'm the only one here who thought this, but the underarm hair growth definitely suggests living on the streets for a while. So if that was the case then, who knows how long this JD has been out there.?

 

[carbuff]

Yeah, who knows what the circumstances may have been? But, in looking at her, and looking at her, AND looking at her, lol, it seems the eyebrows are set too close together. All else "physical" seems very close to me. Maybe I'm the only one here who thought this, but the underarm hair growth definitely suggests living on the streets for a while. So if that was the case then, who knows how long this JD has been out there.?

Did you submit her?

 

[webrocket]

I could not find any matches at Namus, especially with the blonde hair and hazel eyes, which begs the question whether it was real blonde or dyed and if she was reported missing, whether they were listed as green or light brown.

the fact that she had no cavities or fillings and had reached at least the age of 18 would suggest she had a comfortable upbringing. the two weeks worth of hair growth under her arms suggests to me that she probably had a substance abuse problem which prevented her from taking care of basic hygiene at the end of her days.

New York in the 1980's was not the runaway mecca portrayed in the 1970's movie Taxi Driver, but she could have been a recent arrival to NY with no ties whatsoever to the area.

 

[webrocket]

this one is not too far off although Madeline Ponds was originally from Mississippi. The haircut in Madeline's picture obscures her hairline:

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...aseNum=603354&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

 

[CarlK90245]

this one is not too far off although Madeline Ponds was originally from Mississippi. The haircut in Madeline's picture obscures her hairline:

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...aseNum=603354&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

The UID has very close together eyebrows, almost connecting, and there is hardly any broadening of the glabella (i.e., the area above the bridge of the nose). Madeline Ponds' eyebrows are spaced much further apart, and her glabella is very triangular

 

[carbuff]

this one is not too far off although Madeline Ponds was originally from Mississippi. The haircut in Madeline's picture obscures her hairline:

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...aseNum=603354&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

Is it my imagination or do both the UID and Ponds have a mole or mark on the forehead? Ponds' is right below her bangs. A glam photo like this has probably been airbrushed, besides.

The post-mortem photos don't appear to be available anywhere any more. I'd like to be able to compare the face shape -- Ponds' face appears to be much wider at the jaw than at the front, making a noticeable indentation. The black and white photo appears to have a similar shape, but Carl's version doesn't show it.

Carl, do you happen to still have the post-mortems you worked from? Can you check about that?

 

[CarlK90245]

Carl, do you happen to still have the post-mortems you worked from? Can you check about that?

Here is a PM photo of the UID.

WARNING: POSTMORTEM PHOTO AT LINK.

WARNING - Postmortem Photo At Link Below
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Postmortem Photos/51UFNYPM.jpg

Here is the most recent update of the reconstruction.

ETA: Here is the link again to the UID's DoeNet page.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/51ufny.html

 

[carbuff]

Thanks Carl; you were posting at the same time I was and I didn't see you.

One thing about the eyebrows: if she hadn't shaved her underarms for two weeks, she most likely hadn't plucked her eyebrows for two weeks, either. That's what it looks like to me.

 

[CarlK90245]

Thanks Carl; you were posting at the same time I was and I didn't see you.

One thing about the eyebrows: if she hadn't shaved her underarms for two weeks, she most likely hadn't plucked her eyebrows for two weeks, either. That's what it looks like to me.

I thought about that possibility, but nevertheless, there is a very clear difference in the bone structure above the bridge of the nose.

ETA: Jane Doe also has a much stronger chin than Madeline Ponds.

 

[carbuff]

I thought about that possibility, but nevertheless, there is a very clear difference in the bone structure above the bridge of the nose.

ETA: Jane Doe also has a much stronger chin than Madeline Ponds.

Yeah, chin does look different. The difference doesn't show as much in the drawings as it does in the post-mortem.

Still not sure I agree with you about the eyebrows/bridge of the nose, though...I wish there were more photos of Madeline to compare with.

 

[Salem]

Bumping for moving to rule out thread.

Salem

 

[crestedibis]

"the two weeks worth of hair growth under her arms suggests to me that she probably had a substance abuse problem which prevented her from taking care of basic hygiene at the end of her days."

Umm...I'm female and have no substance abuse problems, but I haven't shaved my armpits for weeks. Not all women consider shaving their armpits a matter of "basic hygiene." You are less likely to shave your armpits if it's not summer and you're not wearing sleeveless tops, if you think that the idea that women MUST shave their armpits is old-fashioned, if you don't have a lover, if your armpit hair is sparse to begin with, or if you come from one of the numerous countries where unshaven women are common. Come to think of it, maybe the Mount Vernon Jane Doe was not American? That might explain the unibrow as well, and would be a plausible explanation why no one has been able to identify this lovely young girl. This case has haunted me for years, ever since I first saw the post mortem photos...

 

[crestedibis]

This post may be out of place in this particular thread (I'm new here), but when there are post mortem photos available, and especially when they are as recognizable as the Mount Vernon Jane Doe's are, I think they should be made available. I assume that they are often replaced by "artist recreations" out of sensitivity for the victim and the victim's family, and also to spare the easily disturbed viewer, but honestly, most of the drawings of this victim really do not resemble her at all.

 

[CarlK90245]

Welcome to Websleuths, crestedibis:

You are correct that artist recreations are used (particularly in here, in DoeNet, and in the media) out of sensitivity, but also in an attempt to reach more people who otherwise would be repulsed by images of deceased. Although some of the older posts include postmortem images in open view on the thread, Websleuths policy is now requires that we post them in such a way that they are available to those who wish to look at them (with a warning message accompanying the link), and any comparisons in open-view should be done using the reconstructions.

I created the color image above, (as well as about 40 or 50 others), and this particular image was one of my earlier attempts at doing facial reconstructions. I appreciate the critique, and I don't mind hearing constructive criticism.

Despite that this comes from a fairly clear image of the decedent, it was quite difficult to get an overall sense of the woman's overall look, even if I get the individual features and shapes correct. I probably spent more time on this image than most of the others, and I still feel like something is not quite right.

I am certain that in life, this woman didn't have the morose look that she has in death, and the difficult trick is to show her as she might have looked in life, rather than depicting a dead person with opened eyes. Many of the adjustments that I made to make her look alive, such as adding muscle tone to the cheeks, and straightening out her badly contorted lips, and fluffing up her hair (it was wet in the PM photo) have affected the resemblance to how she looks in death.

Perhaps when I feel ambitious, I might try re-doing this one now that I have more experience with the graphics software, and a comfort level drawing with a mouse rather than a paintbrush.

Thanks again, and ... :welcome5:

 

[CarlK90245]

... Come to think of it, maybe the Mount Vernon Jane Doe was not American? That might explain the unibrow as well, and would be a plausible explanation why no one has been able to identify this lovely young girl. ...

I remember the detective in charge of this case telling me that he thinks that this woman may be a European/Hispanic from one of the countries south of the U.S. border.

 

[webrocket]

I remember the detective in charge of this case telling me that he thinks that this woman may be a European/Hispanic from one of the countries south of the U.S. border.

European maybe. south of the border with blonde hair and hazel eyes? I don't see that as a likely situation, except maybe Brazilian.