NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

Oh yeah-now I remember. They offered to bring her in, but her husband was sick and she couldn't leave him. I guess they couldn't come to her? I think they attribute it to jurisdiction, but I wonder if it's actually their budget that won't allow them to go to where Mary was? Is there some reason that a statement must be taken at the precinct, or can they take it anywhere?

BBM: I am not sure. Logistics, maybe? I mean, if they did this as a matter of practice, they'd probably be roaming all over the place most of the time. I know I've read about cases where detectives made these kinds of trips, but they needed to argue for approval first from their immediate higher-ups, as well as -- to your point -- alerting local LE if it was a jurisdictional matter. Which I don't think it is in this case, right -- as SL's case is clearly in the NY jurisdiction. If they were going across state lines to interview a suspect in the case, however, it might be another matter -- I'm not sure of the ins and outs.

 

[rosemadderlake]

What seems so unfortunate back then regarding the missing is the lack of partnership between LE and the families searching for their loved ones. If they wrote SL off as a runaway, then how is a family to know how and when to push for publicity? -Or, insist she is endangered? And, as you point out Jmoose, did an identifying piece of evidence turn up (soon after perhaps) only to get completely lost in some overwhelming evidence archive? How would anyone be able to connect it?

We saw one intake page of the 1975 police report on this thread. But we don’t know if there was communication between SL’s family and LE over time. (-I am thinking of the archived family files that may contain notes, correspondences, to this effect.) Or, maybe there was nothing for 30+ years…

NamUS was created in 2005 – 30 years after Sylvia disappeared. She was entered in this database in 2010. It seems much was done to gather Sylvia’s case and enter it into NamUs, and get DNA samples done. -But what else? Maybe nothing new was discovered after CCS reviewed her case and this is why her family turned to Websleuths. –And, after all our investigation, have we uncovered anything new? Sometimes I think there is the critical piece that just has not been revealed but then I lose hope in the silence. It is as if after only so much information has been imparted, then there is nothing…

Stacy Horn’s book is referenced in this article below, and yes, it is very well written, and I come away with no doubt that amidst all the unfavorable opinions one hears about law enforcement in general that even the very best detectives are totally strapped and constrained by the lack of manpower and budget cuts that reduced NYC’s CCS from 50 detectives in 1996 to (8) in 2012. –That is completely overwhelming considering the number of unsolved murders, let alone the missing.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...o_one_is_working_on_new_york_s_thousands.html

“…The “cold case squad” concept originated in Miami in the 1980s, and soon spread to police departments across the country. The NYPD’s Cold Case Squad was formed in 1996, with approximately 50 detectives charged with reexamining some of the department’s most difficult cases.

But over the past decade, with municipal budgets shrinking, cold case squads around the country have been decimated, and New York is no exception. In 2012, the New York Post reported that only eight NYPD cold case detectives remained on the squad…”

 

[Jmoose]

I've been thinking about the reactions of so many of the parents of children (both young and grown children) who are missing-a great many of them think that the missing are alive but being held against their will, even when it's evident to objective outsiders that this is really very unlikely. The Cleveland case really is an anomaly, but it gives people some unrealistic hope. My personal opinion is that Eva Lwowski thought her daughter was alive, not because she had some reason to believe it might be true, but because she couldn't contemplate anything else. Watching "Disappeared" and other missing person shows has brought me to this conclusion-it seems to be the case especially with the parents of pretty young women and girls. It seems like a high percentage of mothers, in particular, think this is true.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I've been thinking about the reactions of so many of the parents of children (both young and grown children) who are missing-a great many of them think that the missing are alive but being held against their will, even when it's evident to objective outsiders that this is really very unlikely. The Cleveland case really is an anomaly, but it gives people some unrealistic hope. My personal opinion is that Eva Lwowski thought her daughter was alive, not because she had some reason to believe it might be true, but because she couldn't contemplate anything else. Watching "Disappeared" and other missing person shows has brought me to this conclusion-it seems to be the case especially with the parents of pretty young women and girls. It seems like a high percentage of mothers, in particular, think this is true.

Is that you under there, JMoose? LOL. When I first saw your new avatar, I thought it was a post by a new member. I have one of those hats -- a red one I wear cross country skiing. I call it my Elmer Fudd hat Your's is more stylin'.

BBM: You could be right. I know I would want to hope that and would probably gladly lie to myself. But then there are the other mothers/fathers you see every now and again -- those working on pure intuition who say they can feel their kid is alive and it turns out to be so. And I've also seen a few cases where parents say they are terrified from day one because they can feel that their child is dead (which I think is a much harder intuition to own up to), and that turns out to be so. I don't think there's a formula for it. It's such a leap -- over such a chasm -- from where we are to where they are, with a child missing ... I think we have to take our cues from them and let time say whether they were right or wrong. JMHO.

In EL's case, everything we know about her is secondhand. She could have had good reasons, unknown to us, for thinking what she did. It's possible she just didn't want to know ... but somehow I think she was tougher than that. Maybe, like a few other families we've seen, her belief wasn't a belief at all, but a stance she hoped would somehow eventually prompt SL's killer to confess. Very hard for me to take a stand on this one way or the other.

 

[Jmoose]

Is that you under there, JMoose? LOL. When I first saw your new avatar, I thought it was a post by a new member. I have one of those hats -- a red one I wear cross country skiing. I call it my Elmer Fudd hat Your's is more stylin'.

BBM: You could be right. I know I would want to hope that and would probably gladly lie to myself. But then there are the other mothers/fathers you see every now and again -- those working on pure intuition who say they can feel their kid is alive and it turns out to be so. And I've also seen a few cases where parents say they are terrified from day one because they can feel that their child is dead (which I think is a much harder intuition to own up to), and that turns out to be so. I don't think there's a formula for it. It's such a leap -- over such a chasm -- from where we are to where they are, with a child missing ... I think we have to take our cues from them and let time say whether they were right or wrong. JMHO.

In EL's case, everything we know about her is secondhand. She could have had good reasons, unknown to us, for thinking what she did. It's possible she just didn't want to know ... but somehow I think she was tougher than that. Maybe, like a few other families we've seen, her belief wasn't a belief at all, but a stance she hoped would somehow eventually prompt SL's killer to confess. Very hard for me to take a stand on this one way or the other.

(lol) Yes, that's me under all of that gear-that's what I wear when it's super cold out and I will be working with a dog for an extended time. You should see how much dogs like that hat!

I agree with what you said about the parents who have such strong feelings either way as it relates to whether or not their child is still alive. Some of the parents are just so unrealistically, but understandably, optimistic-Brittanny Drexel's mother, for example. As you said, EL may have had reasons, and we aren't privy to those. My own personal definition of intuition is the processing of information that you don't realize you're doing.

On an interesting note: I just read today that someone was arrested for the murder of a 17 year old 40 years ago in Iowa! That is very encouraging for the families of others who have been killed. This has no real help for Sylvia's case, because we don't know what happened to her, but I thought it might be good news for some of these other cases here.

 

[rosemadderlake]

-After following jmoose around for a while (lol) -I was reading Maura Murray’s thread, and I am bringing a post over from (nevereverever, post #377 Pg. 16), because it answered a question for me about Sylvia “walking away” -something I have wondered about (in general) since the beginning of this thread. How would LE handle a MP case if the MP was found but walked away? I guess that hit me because the chances of Sylvia being alive seem more and more remote, and with so little information on how her case was handled in 1975, how would LE treat this aspect? Would they be upfront? Thank you nevereverever for the insight and the ok to post it; I found the “verified legal” squad perspective very helpful to my inexperienced understanding about the inner workings of law enforcement. - It makes sense that if this happened, the case would be closed. And, I see how it would play out in your post. Maura’s case is complex, too.

For Sylvia’s nearest and dearest, I imagine belief and disbelief is interchangeable on a daily basis, then and now. –I am now realizing the depth of the disillusionment SL’s family must have felt with such an inert LE back in 1975. This definitely would have made me feel as if all kinds of information was being withheld. –And, strangely enough, I might feel a false sense of hope, too…

Maura Murray thread
Nevereverever: (verified attorney) post #377: "There is no way the police would find and speak with Maura, and then continue to lie about the case. If Maura was contacted by police, and she told them she had no interest in being found or contacted by family etc., the police would respect that, but they wouldn't leave the investigation open, or lie and say they still have no idea where she is. This happens not uncommonly in voluntary walk away cases. The police simply say they have located the person, who wants his/her privacy respected, and their case is closed. If the police say they've confirmed it isn't Maura, then it isn't Maura, as far as I'm concerned. End of story."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225095&highlight=maura&page=16

 

[Jmoose]

Thanks for posting that, Rose-there are some similarites between the cases, as you have discovered. They may have both met with a similar end, too-but Maura was out of her car in some very cold weather, in a place where, not too far away (Mt. Washington), they have some of the most extreme weather in the world. Maura is from a town in Massachusetts just next to the one where my husband grew up, so she's caught my interest. I wonder if we'll ever find out what happened to these two ladies?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

OP TBM:

... it answered a question for me about Sylvia “walking away” -something I have wondered about (in general) since the beginning of this thread. How would LE handle a MP case if the MP was found but walked away? I guess that hit me because the chances of Sylvia being alive seem more and more remote, and with so little information on how her case was handled in 1975, how would LE treat this aspect? Would they be upfront?

It's funny how these conversations are tying together. JMoose, maybe you'll remember more of the details about this than are coming to my mind now, but Rose, in an episode of Disappeared, the scenario you describe plays out in just this way. In fact, I thought we had discussed it in this forum, but I can't think of any key words to search with that pull up fewer than 50 posts.

In the episode, a young woman disappears -- IIRC, it happens after a sexual assault, but I'm not positive. Due to either some dysfunction in the family, or lack of support for what she went through -- all tied up with the angst of youth -- she runs away. Because she leaves no clues or confidences, her family views her as missing and fears fowl play. Years later LE locates her, I believe in Washington state. I think they even give the family a heads up that this good news is about to break. But when it does, the young woman who went missing is unsure if she wants to reconnect with her family. So LE has to tell them that yes, they found their daughter, but it's up to her to reveal her whereabouts, if she so chooses.

As it turns out, the young woman who disappeared, after a circuitous early journey, got her s__t together (does she even change her name?) and created a healthy adult life for herself in the northwest. She does in fact reconnect with her family, but slowly and on her terms. The show follows up to show how relationships, esp. between mother and daughter, start to grow in the aftermath. I wish I could remember her name, but it's just not coming to me. I'll peek at the case summaries on Netflix later.

I remember coming away from this episode realizing that this could not be the case with SL because her missing profile would be taken down and her case closed.

ETA: Disappeared: Season 1, Episode 3, The Last Truck Stop. Michelle (Shelli) Whitaker disappears from South Carolina, is gone for six years, and is found working as a nanny in Oregon. (She did not change her name.)

 

[rosemadderlake]

Oh, maybe I missed that this subject was covered already – I don’t recall. -Could be the light bulb just went on in my brain about it! I am not familiar with Disappeared, but the episode you are referencing, GBMG, speaks to exactly what I was wondering about. And, I’ll have to check it out.

In Sylvia’s disappearance, there have been many doubts expressed on this thread about NYPD, and a corrupt New York in the 70’s; everything from LE did virtually nothing, to unanswered correspondences to Det. Lennon, to a full blown murder cover-up. These doubts got me to wondering about the ring: fact or rumor, among other things. While I do not think that someone would murder someone and then just make public that they are in possession of a key identifying piece of the victim and imply themselves, I do wonder if LE has (or had) knowledge about it, or something else. How was it obtained or returned? -That night? -Or later? IF later, what does LE do with that information if they have it? …If there is a cover-up, could there be one if she was alive? When there are no answers, the mind can wander… Doubts and desperation can make one mistrustful of everyone on the outside and sometimes the inside, too. -In all the silence that prevails in this case, I guess the suspicions conspire to feed the worst imaginings when someone disappears without a trace… (wanderings & imo)

In reading Maura’s thread, and particularly the post that addressed the issue of “found alive but wants no contact”, it kind of brought some things back into focus for me as to how LE might handle certain scenarios with their “objectivity” and obligation as investigators. In my mind, second to learning that my loved one died, and died so young, there would be no greater torment than thinking certain information was withheld. And, in that thought is where the heart and mind may live in false hope, as well.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Getting a bit long in here. Glad to see an older case still has such interest.

Here's a new thread. Please continue discussion here:

NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community