OH - Larry Mugrage, 15, fatally shot, Batavia, 19 March 2006

[nanandjim]

...When I was in my teens, my family was harassed by another family in the neighborhood, and although we called the police many times, NOTHING was done. Even when there was property damage, the kids parents would tell the police they were home when it happened. The police would come back and say, Can you prove they did it? Well, if they won't take your word for it, what can you do? We stopped calling too...

I can totally relate to your personal story and also figured the cops could have or would have blown off this guy on this neighborhood issue.

Years ago, I was friends with a guy from work. We were both in professional positions for a large telecommunications company. He and I had some similar interests, to include long-distance running. Well, he and I began to hang out together. I didn't really like him in a romantic way even though I knew that he was interested in pursuing a relationship with me.

I was over at his house one day watching a video with him and eating lunch when someone started banging on his door. I could see waving the person away or saying something through the glass. When I asked him who it was, he told me it was an ex-girlfriend of his who was worried about him as she hadn't been able to reach him all day. He apparently took his phone off the hook while I was there.

Anyway, hours later, I left his house and drove home. Well, this nut apparently hid outside of his home for hours, watched me leave and followed me home. Then, the nightmare began. I can't tell you how many things this woman did to me (from harrassing phone calls to keying my car to driving nails into all of my tires, etc.). Every time I called the police, they asked me if I had physical proof that this woman was harrassing me.

Well, the day came when I had physical proof. I had told this guy, after several incidences, that his friendship was not worth the trouble. One day, he finally convinced me to let him come over with some videos. Well, lo and behold, there was a knock at my door. I went to open it and this maniac pushed her way into my home, clawing me, breaking my door, etc.

I had the guy call the police while I kept her in my apartment. The police tried to talk me out of pressing charges against this woman. They even went so far as to tell me that she could press charges against ME for false imprisonment. I couldn't believe it!!

I pushed forward with the charges. This guy and I went to the police station and gave sworn statements. Of course, he was reluctant to do so. I had scratches and bruises all over my arms and legs from the altercation.

I'll be honest with you. I was in excellent shape and could have beaten the holy crap out of this woman, but I wanted to have her prosecuted. I didn't want there to be one scratch or bruise on her.

She pleaded not guilty until she was told that there was a sworn statement from her loverboy stating what she did. Plus, we had phone records from another incident where she called and called and called. The only thing I remember is a restraining order was issued where she had to stay about 50 or 100 yards away from me.

Because this woman was also a professional with our company, she had access to our secure building. She was such a nut and had done so many extreme things that I didn't know if she would show up at our building one day with a gun. I told my boss what was going on, and security was brought into the situation. That's the best thing that ever happened. I knew that they would handle the situation and she would either cool it or lose her high-paying job.

Bottom line: Police are very reluctant to do anything about domestic issues, even though they sometimes escalate to a point of extreme violence.

 

[Labrat]

Hi Wrinkles-

I can really appreciate your situation- we ended up having to get a lawyer because they took US to court for harassment. The case was thrown out. We found out they had been harassing other neighbors also, although none to the extent we got, and the Judge remembered that they had taken the other family to court. We were lucky we were able to afford a lawyer. It went on for several years, and really adversely affected my mother's health, as they would start up with her at the grocery store, anywhere they saw her. She became afraid to go out of the house. I stopped taking the school bus and walked to school to avoid the kids on the bus. It was really awful. If I was riding my bike and they were in the car, they would run me off the road.
The constant stress and fear really gets to you- I do not condone what that man did, but if the parents were involved in the harassment also, and the police did not help him, I can see why he snapped.

Believe me, when it is a family like this, trying to befriend the kid is not going to work. Don't you think we tried everything we could think of to try to end this? We approached them many times to talk it over and work things out. They mocked and verbally abused us, and stepped up the harassment. The parents were actually encouraging their kids to "get" us. They told us they wanted us out of the neighborhood, that they couldn't stand Pollacks. They said they had gotten the other Pollacks out and they would get us out too.

We put up a fence, and they climbed over it.

It only ended because the husband had to take a job transfer and they moved to another state.

Again, I do not condone the shooting, but I can see how it came to this. If it is true that the boys parents were also harassing the older man, the police were doing nothing, the man lived alone with no support system immediately available, it is a powder keg.

 

[Yakwoman]

I guess that there are a few of us who agree that this tragedy could have very easily been avoided.

That's exactly it.

To my fellow posters who disagree: Nobody here is trying to defend the elderly man - we all agree that what he did was wrong and he should be punished for it.

We are just voicing our opinion that it was not just "about grass," but ongoing harassment and intimidation. The man said it himself in the 911 call ' "Today it just blew up." There you have it.

In no way are his actions defendable - all we're saying is that we understand how he could get to that point, which could have been avoided if his neighbors had shown some respect for his values. Was his value system screwed up? Possibly. But he has a right to value whatever he wants. The trouble came when someone didn't agree with his value system and instead of just respecting it and leaving it alone (such a simple thing to do) they decided to show their lack of respect by intentionally walking on the old man's grass just to irritate him.

Nobody is blaming the victim or bashing his parents. It's a terrible tragedy and it could have been avoided. That's all we're saying.

 

[LvsAMystry]

This is a sad story.My friend has been going through hell,her son was killed by a landowner stringing a cable traverse on a path that was used daily by locals.Read about the height placement of this cable and where the cable caught him.It would not have been seen until it was too late,add to that the glaring sun.Matt was wearing a helmet with a visor.
My heart hurts.
It was a well traveled path and not in someones yard.
The Matthew Ives Foundation was formed at Matt's school.I donated to the Foundation,a check from the inmate recreation fund from where I work was presented in 2005 to students who graduated in Matt's class.
Matt's parents attempted to pass Matthew's Law please read this link ,it gives a summary of what happened.
It was not passed.

I posted this on Webslueths.The person was not charged.

This is just awful, I'm so sorry this happened. I can't believe the person wasn't charged for doing this, it just isn't right to knowingly contribute to the harm of another person. I hope your friend has at least looked into the Vermont stance on what constitutes an "attractive nuisance" and whether it's recoverable there from the owner. IMO, a known ATV path with open access could be considered such. It varies from state to state on how these things are viewed, but it's fairly universally recognized that every property owner needs to take due care that others aren't injured.

 

[proadvocate]

That's exactly it.

To my fellow posters who disagree: Nobody here is trying to defend the elderly man - we all agree that what he did was wrong and he should be punished for it.

We are just voicing our opinion that it was not just "about grass," but ongoing harassment and intimidation. The man said it himself in the 911 call ' "Today it just blew up." There you have it.

In no way are his actions defendable - all we're saying is that we understand how he could get to that point, which could have been avoided if his neighbors had shown some respect for his values. Was his value system screwed up? Possibly. But he has a right to value whatever he wants. The trouble came when someone didn't agree with his value system and instead of just respecting it and leaving it alone (such a simple thing to do) they decided to show their lack of respect by intentionally walking on the old man's grass just to irritate him.

Nobody is blaming the victim or bashing his parents. It's a terrible tragedy and it could have been avoided. That's all we're saying.

Still not a valid reason to shoot someone in cold blood.I wonder how many would find the old mans actions so denfendable if say they were the kids parents?Would they be willing to mow the old mans lawn for him while our fascist judicial system torments him with silly things like a value of innocent life?Maybe when they were thru mowing his lawn they would go visit the old man andlearn more about his VALUES so they too could implement them into their own lives.Would ya really?

 

[nanandjim]

...Not that they couldn't go get their toy or I couldn't go get their toy but that they shouldn't have been playing period so near his precious grass. He would go get it and throw it away. This wasn't something that happened often or on purpose. In the end I took it upon myself to go get it, yes without asking.

This was after he called the health department on me though. Seems my pecan tree was dropping pecans in his yard and he took it personal. He also cut down all my shrubs that adjoined but didn't touch his property. He cut his grass 2 times a week too! He petitioned the city to make me change the color of my house because he didn't like Salmon or I didn't paint it fast enough. When he thought my kids were being too loud he sprayed them with a water hose or yelled at them...

What an absolute miserable nut. He sounds a lot like that BTK serial killer.

 

[nanandjim]

This is a sad story.My friend has been going through hell,her son was killed by a landowner stringing a cable traverse on a path that was used daily by locals.Read about the height placement of this cable and where the cable caught him...

This is absolutely sick. I cannot believe that this guy was not prosecuted. Did the parents sue him in a civil suit? I thought that a homeowner was responsible for injuries on his/her property, whether the person was there legally or not. I would have tried to sue him and his homeowner's insurance.

This type of death is so senseless. It sounds like Matthew was a really good boy. I'm so sorry to hear about this tragedy.

 

[Yakwoman]

Still not a valid reason to shoot someone in cold blood.I wonder how many would find the old mans actions so denfendable if say they were the kids parents?Would they be willing to mow the old mans lawn for him while our fascist judicial system torments him with silly things like a value of innocent life?Maybe when they were thru mowing his lawn they would go visit the old man andlearn more about his VALUES so they too could implement them into their own lives.Would ya really?

Proadvocate: I guess I'm just not articulate enough to get my point across that I am not defending the man or his actions. Either that, or you're not really reading my posts. You keep saying that I'm defending him. I'm not. There is no reason or defense for shooting someone in cold blood. I'm just saying that I can understand how it could have come to this end, due to a lack of respect. As I said before, maybe his values were a little warped, but that does not mean they shouldn't be respected.

There is a big difference between defending an action, and understanding how it could happen. There's also a big difference between your opinion and mine. And I respect that difference, even if I don't agree. Do you?

 

[nanandjim]

Proadvocate: I guess I'm just not articulate enough to get my point across that I am not defending the man or his actions. Either that, or you're not really reading my posts. You keep saying that I'm defending him. I'm not. There is no reason or defense for shooting someone in cold blood. I'm just saying that I can understand how it could have come to this end, due to a lack of respect. As I said before, maybe his values were a little warped, but that does not mean they shouldn't be respected.

There is a big difference between defending an action, and understanding how it could happen.

For what it's worth, Yakwoman - I totally agree with you.

 

[proadvocate]

Martin, who lived alone, told officers he'd had several disputes with neighbors about walking on his grass, but hadn't called police since 2003

Apparently by his own admissions here this old mans values were not that important to him.If he had such a beef why had he went nearly 3 yrs without filing a complaint.It is true almost noone has tried to defend the old man per say.But its also true that some have faailed to see him as anything but a cold blooded murderer.If we rush to understand his motives for killing people in cold blood,then logically we must rush to understand those of every sicko we encounter.Do we really need to understand why a pedo molests little kids?Is it really that important why people break laws?We can understand many things in life,yet the simple point I fail to see is a need to understand why a person shoots someone for walking on his grass.We all at some point in our lifes violate boundaries for vrious reasons,I dare say WS would be hardpressed to find members if the owners of those boundaries took the law into theeir own hands.The old man didn't complain for 3 yrs......aqpparently it was no big deal to him.....until he needed an excuse to murder someone.

 

[proadvocate]

Silly example here....yes this actually happened.

In 1998 I owned a blue 1991 Chevorlet Cavalier.1 day I had parked this car in the Wal Mart lot while I went in to do my Christmas shopping.Well I come out to leave and there sits a older lady in MY car.Strangely enough parked right beside my car was 1 which easily passed as its twin,right down to a small tear in the passenger side front seat.I politely pointed out to the old lady that she had made a rather embarassing mistake and was in the wrong car.She appologized profusely and offered to buy my lunch for the mistake.I told her there was no need but I would have lunch with her provided she allow me to pay for my own.We went and to this day the old lady is 1 of my favorite people.

Now tell me was I wrong.Shouldn't I have just reached in my glove box retrieved my firearm and shot her?She did afterall violate my boundary did she not?

 

[captain exposition]

It is true almost noone has tried to defend the old man per say.But its also true that some have faailed to see him as anything but a cold blooded murderer.If we rush to understand his motives for killing people in cold blood,then logically we must rush to understand those of every sicko we encounter.

The entire field of criminal psychology is based upon trying to understand criminal behavior. Only through understanding can we ever hope to develop effective techniques for identifying and treating pathalogical criminals. There is nothing wrong with trying to better understand human behavior in any of its forms.

 

[MagicRose99]

I'm sorry... I have to take issue here...

I have the worst neighbors imaginable! I've lived next to these people for 20 years... Yes, 20 years! Their children have no respect or consideration for me, my kids or my property. I have complained to the parents numerous times. I've called the cops numerous times. I have turned my head the other way numerous times.

And now you're telling me, after 20 years of putting up with these disrespectful children, you'd UNDERSTAND how it could come about if I decided to pull out my rifle and blow these kids away?!?!

20 years... I may have fantasized about doing just this, but reality kept me from doing so. Reality, morals, values, respect of the law... many other factors. I would NEVER be justified in acting upon those fantasies... Never.

Proadvocate: I guess I'm just not articulate enough to get my point across that I am not defending the man or his actions. Either that, or you're not really reading my posts. You keep saying that I'm defending him. I'm not. There is no reason or defense for shooting someone in cold blood. I'm just saying that I can understand how it could have come to this end, due to a lack of respect. As I said before, maybe his values were a little warped, but that does not mean they shouldn't be respected.

There is a big difference between defending an action, and understanding how it could happen. There's also a big difference between your opinion and mine. And I respect that difference, even if I don't agree. Do you?

 

[captain exposition]

20 years... I may have fantasized about doing just this, but reality kept me from doing so. Reality, morals, values, respect of the law... many other factors. I would NEVER be justified in acting upon those fantasies... Never.

She never said it was justified. In fact she has explicitly stated that it was not justified. She said she could understand how a situation could escalate to that point. Understanding or justifying are two different things.

 

[Labrat]

And now you're telling me, after 20 years of putting up with these disrespectful children, you'd UNDERSTAND how it could come about if I decided to pull out my rifle and blow these kids away?!?!


Actually, I would understand how you'd been brought to that point. I would also think you should go to prison for it, and it would make me sad for all concerned that the situation had come to that.

 

[concernedperson]

I will tell a more sinister story. My parents neighbor had two large dogs that were fenced and barked a lot. My mother gripped about these dogs constantly. It was an OCD thing, day in and day out, just call and you would hear about the dogs. Then one day both dogs were dead. There was a pan of antifreeze left next to the fence bordering the properties.The owner never compained to LE that his dogs were intentionally killed.

Let's go on. The neighbor was not a wealthy person and in fact, he was quite poor. But he had managed to buy this property (probably in foreclosure) and he was attempting to fix it up but it was slow. He had torn out the kitchen and had put up new studs. Not much happened for awhile and the house stayed in the needed repair mode. My mother began complaining loudly that this was devaluing her property etc. Even though most of the homes were very low on the valuation scale. Again, it was constant the house was an eyesore it devalued her....blah, blah,blah. Oops, the house burned to the ground shortly. The owner did not have insurance so he didn't do this. My brother went off on a fireman trying to put the fire out saying that the fire was too close to my mother and he had better be fast getting the fire under control or he would hurt him.

This is a painful story to tell but it is true. My brother's boundaries are dictated by someone else's but does that give him the right to destroy this man's possessions? No, it doesn't. Did the man further complain about these allegations, no he didn't? I would imagine he was too afraid. Did I? You bet your sweet booty I did. I had to figure it out first but once I did I called LE and called LE and faxed LE.

So someone said I didn't know about OCD, I do. I also know about sociopathy and past behaviors and current denial. I know dysfunction when I see it as I grew up with it.But I didn't have an understanding overnight it took a long time.

So, sometimes when I post I am interjecting bits and pieces of knowledge but I have tempered everything with lots of reading. Tons and tons of medical papers and crime journals and law enforcement information. Histories of people who have been through these experiences and the perps who will talk etc. The pattern emerges after awhile. Sorry this is so long I don't usually do this.

 

[Labrat]

Silly example here....yes this actually happened.

In 1998 I owned a blue 1991 Chevorlet Cavalier.1 day I had parked this car in the Wal Mart lot while I went in to do my Christmas shopping.Well I come out to leave and there sits a older lady in MY car.Strangely enough parked right beside my car was 1 which easily passed as its twin,right down to a small tear in the passenger side front seat.I politely pointed out to the old lady that she had made a rather embarassing mistake and was in the wrong car.She appologized profusely and offered to buy my lunch for the mistake.I told her there was no need but I would have lunch with her provided she allow me to pay for my own.We went and to this day the old lady is 1 of my favorite people.

Now tell me was I wrong.Shouldn't I have just reached in my glove box retrieved my firearm and shot her?She did afterall violate my boundary did she not?

This made me laugh- it happened to my Dad. He got into an identical car and scared the woman in the passenger seat half to death. He was pretty shocked himself.

There is a difference between a mistake and years of harassment though. Not all boundary violations are the same. I guess from the perspective of someone who's gone through it, I do feel some sympathy for that man. I know that will offend many people, but there you have it. It's such a shame all around, the young kid lost his life, his parents devasted, and the older man going to prison.

I am wondering if more details of what was really going on will come out. There is so little real information, and I think people tend to fill out the story through the lens of their own experience. I know I do. I try not to, but it's hard.

 

[MagicRose99]

You left out the portion of my quote that states: "And now you're telling me, after 20 years of putting up with these disrespectful children, you'd UNDERSTAND how it could come about if I decided to pull out my rifle and blow these kids away?!?!"

I stated that she'd "understand" the reason why I'd have shot them?

The "no justification" is MY statement...

She never said it was justified. In fact she has explicitly stated that it was not justified. She said she could understand how a situation could escalate to that point. Understanding or justifying are two different things.

 

[Yakwoman]

I'm sorry... I have to take issue here...

I have the worst neighbors imaginable! I've lived next to these people for 20 years... Yes, 20 years! Their children have no respect or consideration for me, my kids or my property. I have complained to the parents numerous times. I've called the cops numerous times. I have turned my head the other way numerous times.

And now you're telling me, after 20 years of putting up with these disrespectful children, you'd UNDERSTAND how it could come about if I decided to pull out my rifle and blow these kids away?!?!

20 years... I may have fantasized about doing just this, but reality kept me from doing so. Reality, morals, values, respect of the law... many other factors. I would NEVER be justified in acting upon those fantasies... Never.

I'm very happy for you - your feet are firmly planted in reality. Some people's aren't.

I didn't say what the man did was "understandable." I said I could "understand" how someone could snap in that manner.

 

[Maybe So]

I'm very happy for you - your feet are firmly planted in reality. Some people's aren't.

I didn't say what the man did was "understandable." I said I could "understand" how someone could snap in that manner.

I understand what you are saying.

Not the killing the boy was reasonable or right....just that you understand that sometimes situations when not handled correctly can escalate to situations that could have been prevented.

Anyone who has been the victim of ongoing harrassment understands that it often get to be pretty personal to the parties involved.

The man should of course go to prison for murdering the boy.

But people do also need to understand that teaching kids to respect neighbors and others can help prevent these kinds of things. It's not a matter of being at fault it's just a matter of being courteous, being smart and staying safe.

I have no clue if the boy ever harrassed the man or not so please understand that I am not accusing him or his parents of anything. It may be that the elderly man simply felt he was being harrassed and that is what pushed him over the edge.

As for the man. Yes he may be a cold blooded killer who thought the grass was more important than the kid and that is wrong. But I also wonder about that because the man is an older man and he may have some form of dementia or Alzheimers. Some Alzheimers sufferers become angry easily, get weird notions in their minds and even imagine that they are being harrassed (my uncle would become furious about events that we know never happened...he usually imagined someone was sneaking into his garage or house and taking things) believe me his hunting guns were some of the first things that had to be taken away from him. He could become angry at the drop of a hat.... it is possible the man was not comnpletely in his right mind when he did this horrible act.