OK - Christian files lawsuit objecting to license plate displaying a Native American

[wfgodot]

I object to prayers and Bible readings in public schools and I'm a Christian.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

I wonder how offended the Indians in the area are about the presence of this pastor on what was, undoubtedly, once their land? :innocent:

:rockon::rockon:

And the WS congregation said, "A Freakin' Men!!!"

 

[Elley Mae]

June 12, 2013


http://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/this_week/pdf/12-6151.pdf

Complaint dismissed, motion for preliminary injunction Denied.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

why doesn't he get a personalized plate if he doesn't like the state-issued one?

Because it's not really about the plate at all, IMO. It's about some bigoted ole boy taking the opportunity to spew his personal hatred.

 

[Steely Dan]

The wicked part of me is truly hoping that pastor gets rained on every day for a solid year, now.

:stormingmad: :giggle:

why doesn't he get a personalized plate if he doesn't like the state-issued one?

He'd have to pay extra. I say let the guy get a native American free plate. He can drive around letting everyone know he's an :censored:

I object to prayers and Bible readings in public schools and I'm a Christian.

Keep religion out of schools and facts out of church.

 

[RoseRed]

Which nation? I don't know where you live but can you give examples of your accusations towards atheists?

Well how about many many cities that were sued to remove manger scenes at Christmas, crosses from water towers even though they had been there 50 years or more. Employees being told they can not say Merry Christmas to shoppers during the Christmas season. that is in the USA the country I live in.

Good for this pastor finally fighting back at being forced to look at a "God' other than the one he serves and is not allowed to have on a license plate denoting his god., Children not allowed to say a christian prayer in any public school in America.
For crying out loud I live in the USA.

 

[ArianeEmory]

It's called separation of church and state, it's not something "atheists" just randomly thought up five minutes ago.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Well how about many many cities that were sued to remove manger scenes at Christmas, crosses from water towers even though they had been there 50 years or more. Employees being told they can not say Merry Christmas to shoppers during the Christmas season. that is in the USA the country I live in.

Good for this pastor finally fighting back at being forced to look at a "God' other than the one he serves and is not allowed to have on a license plate denoting his god., Children not allowed to say a christian prayer in any public school in America.
For crying out loud I live in the USA.

I'm a Christian and I deplore what the pastor is doing, but I do want kids to be able to say prayers in school. I also want them to be able to say Merry Christmas and Happy Easter...but I want all the other kids to be able to do the same when it comes to their religious heritage as well.

Timely thread this:

http://www.ibtimes.com/texas-governor-rick-perry-signs-merry-christmas-bill-law-1308511

 

[my_tee_mouse]

It's called separation of church and state, it's not something "atheists" just randomly thought up five minutes ago.

I don't look at schools as "state." They are not government. They are educational institutions. "State schools" is right up there with Hitler and his "education" of youth, IMO.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Yikes. If we're already invoking Hitler, I'm going to back away slowly.

 

[Ausgirl]

Perhaps in the interests of the thread not devolving into a religious argument, those Christians who wish to complain about the current laws regarding their religion could write to the Government about it? Cause nobody on this thread has the power to change anything and I am pretty sure arguments on both sides will just lead to a pile of ill feeling.

I do think this pastor in the OP was being stupidly petty. I can see why some don't think so.

I still think there's better things a pastor could be doing, though...

 

[Donamena]

I guess, as an ethno-historian, I should weigh in on this. The majority of the First Nation tribes, after having their numbers severely reduced by disease & depredation, were forced to trek to Oklahoma. I'm not sure of stats, but aside from Louisiana, Oklahoma might have the largest aggregation of First Nation tribes. What's left of them. Apart from not knowing the % viz-á-viz First Nation to other Americans, perhaps this pastor should view himself as the minority here. Many people do not believe in a Christian god who died & rose from the dead. We were a country founded, among many other things, with a belief in the separation of church & state. What would be the solution here: have a generic plate & allow the Sovereign First Nations to have their own plate? The plate is a recognition of who was here first. Unfortunately, commodification of culture has become a 'tribal thing' maybe we should all pay for our own individual plates. I would have my own: a Buddha with a teaching mudra.
There's a hole in the ozone layer, there are children who go to bed hungry at night, & there are babies being assaulted in the Congo. There's so much ninny-ness in this plate thing, I wouldn't know just where to begin..

 

[RoseRed]

I still say good for him. You have to stand for something or you will fall for anything.
Also I do have NA( Richardson/NC ) ancestors as do about 50% of all Southern Americans.

 

[Schuby]

It's easy to see this as frivolous, but it's not necessarily so. I venture to say that the pastor feels that since the plate is a depiction of a person who worships a rain god, which in Christianity is idol worship, it's not a "statement" he should be traveling around with. He apparently feels to do so is a manner of endorsement of idolatry. YMMV, but this doesn't make him a hypocrite: rather it is consistent with his faith. It doesn't mean he is anti Native; it just means he recognizes that he shouldn't be promoting something emphatically forbidden in Christianity. The first and foremost commandment states "I am the Lord your God; you shall have no other gods before me." Sometimes Christians bend over so far backwards to be accommodating that we violate our God's precepts unintentionally. We are told in the Bible to avoid even the appearance of inconsistency.

He is not asking the state to change the plate - he is only asking that he not have to pay extra money to have a plate that does not advertise that which his faith forbids.

Schools no longer have prayer or Bible readings because atheists objected. In my area, Nativity sets have been forbidden on public property at Christmas, and this goes on all over the country. But this pastor is not asking for others to dance to his tune in that manner; he just wants to preserve the integrity of his message.

He's not worried about people being confused that he endorses worship of a rain god. He's making a statement about efforts to remove Christan practices and representations from government. Unfortunately he doesn't grasp the difference between a representation of his states historical and cultural uniqueness and practices that perpetuate and tacitly endorse participation in this country's dominant religious ideology.

 

[Linda7NJ]

why doesn't he get a personalized plate if he doesn't like the state-issued one?

id even volunteer to pay for it... But I don't think he'd like the name I'd choose for him

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well how about many many cities that were sued to remove manger scenes at Christmas, crosses from water towers even though they had been there 50 years or more. Employees being told they can not say Merry Christmas to shoppers during the Christmas season. that is in the USA the country I live in.

Good for this pastor finally fighting back at being forced to look at a "God' other than the one he serves and is not allowed to have on a license plate denoting his god., Children not allowed to say a christian prayer in any public school in America.
For crying out loud I live in the USA.

everyone is free to worship how they want in their homes and places of worship.
It doesn't mean any religious group has the right to shove their religion down anyone else's throat at Walmart, public schools, municipal buildings etc

 

[renatae]

Because it's not really about the plate at all, IMO. It's about some bigoted ole boy taking the opportunity to spew his personal hatred.

That's making a huge assumption. He is not quoted as saying anything at all against Native Americans or anyone else.
Let's put the shoe in the other foot. What if Oklahoma decided to put a cross on all its plates? Would it be bigoted and hateful for a Jewish person or a Native American to ask not to have to pay extra for a plate without one?

 

[MsFacetious]

Ausgirl, that works both ways, doesn't it? What do you say to atheists who object to most every display of Christianity? They bend a nation to their will at every opportunity.

sbm

Atheists objected to the crosses we put up to memorialize our state troopers killed in the line of duty.
They claimed separation of church and state... because the crosses were on state land.
Because the people killed were STATE troopers... so putting them on state land made sense.

I am NOT religious. I actually DESPISE many of the religious people in my area and many of the cops.

However, honoring dead cops with crosses simply did not bother me.
So, my response to the atheists objecting?
Would have been to offer up MY private land for them to put it on.

That is exactly what many people did... volunteered private land to put the crosses on.
Those crosses are still up... still on display, just a few feet from where they started. :sigh:

I guess I just pick my battles.
I would object to my kids being taught religion in school, that's one reason they are home schooled.

However, I have no objection to them seeing a cross on the side of the road memorializing someone.
In fact, if we pass one that has fallen... we stop and stand it back up, where it belongs. :twocents:

 

[RoseRed]

everyone is free to worship how they want in their homes and places of worship.
It doesn't mean any religious group has the right to shove their religion down anyone else's throat at Walmart, public schools, municipal buildings etc

Or by putting a "rain god" on a license plate that all their citizens have to use every day UNLESS they pay through the nose for the privileged to have a different one. Whose stupid idea was that anyway?

 

[renatae]

He's not worried about people being confused that he endorses worship of a rain god. He's making a statement about efforts to remove Christan practices and representations from government. Unfortunately he doesn't grasp the difference between a representation of his states historical and cultural uniqueness and practices that perpetuate and tacitly endorse participation in this country's dominant religious ideology.

Why do you assume he is making a statement about efforts to remove Christian practices and endorsements? He is not quoted as saying any such thing.

From the article quoted originally:

He claims the image unconstitutionally contradicts his Christian beliefs by depicting Indian religious beliefs, and that he shouldn't have to display the image.
The appellate judges stated Oklahoma law imposes sanctions for covering up the image, and the state charges more for specialty plates without it.
His lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Oklahoma City seeks a court order allowing him either to cover up the image on his plates or to get a personalized plate for the same cost as a standard license plate.
“Mr. Cressman's (lawsuit) states a plausible compelled speech claim,” the appellate judges wrote Tuesday in a 39-page decision, reversing Judge Joe Heaton's dismissal of the lawsuit.
“He has alleged sufficient facts to suggest that the ‘Sacred Rain Arrow' image on the standard Oklahoma license plate conveys a particularized message that others are likely to understand and to which he objects.”

From http://houston.cbslocal.com/2013/06...icense-plate-as-affront-to-christian-beliefs/

The “Sacred Rain Arrow” image that ultimately was chosen for Oklahoma’s license plate five years ago is a likeness of the statue by noted American Indian sculptor Allan Houser, a Chiricahua Apache artist recognized as one of the foremost sculptors of the 20th Century. The statue, which was displayed at the Olympic Village during the 2002 Olympic Winter Games in Salt Lake City, features a warrior shooting the arrow skyward as part of a ritual involving a prayer for rain.

[snipped] Cressman’s attorney said his client’s lawsuit is in no way a criticism of Native Americans or their rich history in Oklahoma.
“It’s really the idea that he would have to communicate a religious belief that he doesn’t hold,” Kellum said.

He is not asking that the state not use the Native American plate. He is not asking that the state switch to a plate with Christian symbolism. He is only asking to be allowed to display an alternative plate at no extra charge.

The only intolerant remarks I'm seeing are those directed at him.