OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Oriah]

Okay one more thing. That test proving it came from "a native american", would it also show up for someone who was even partial native american? I mean, if that test linked even partially native american peoples than we are probably looking at most of the town being a possibility. It's just a thought. This test could be almost completely worthless.

Yes. IMO, that is 100% accurate.

 

[Oriah]

Sorry- should have clarifed- IMO the results of the testing done at the time (and in '87) are almost completely worthless because the population density in that area is such that it would not rule out most of the population in the town- or the county- or about 100 miles in any direction.

Laura Bean- I meant to say I believe YOU are accurate in this understanding.

 

[wfgodot]

Okay one more thing. That test proving it came from "a native american", would it also show up for someone who was even partial native american? I mean, if that test linked even partially native american peoples than we are probably looking at most of the town being a possibility. It's just a thought. This test could be almost completely worthless.

If it included everyone who was 1/16th, 1/32nd, 1/64th, 1/128th or 1/256th Native, that would include about everyone in NE OK. There are many of us, but, say, 1/8th up to 7/8th are rare, as are full-bloods. (I once taught a Cherokee student who was on the rolls at 15/16th. She knew she was full-blooded, but one of her great-grandmothers had subtracted a bit of N.A. and added "white" because she feared that every full-blood might be a target and his or her life thus endangered, and she didn't want that for her descendents.)

 

[wfgodot]

Seven interesting things from "Someone Cry for the Children":

* When Hart died in 1979, in the year after he was found not guilty at trial, the autopsy stated heart failure to be the cause; many, of course, felt he had been murdered, perhaps by inmates who thought he was guilty, or by prison officials, or both. One day before Hart died, "enough cyanide to kill eight hundred inmates" was uncovered and confiscated from prisoners at the McAlester prison. One can't help but think at least some of it, for reasons unknown, went undiscovered.

* Allegedy, "His autopsy... revealed that Hart's vasectomy [which was done years before the killings] had not been successful; his left seminal vesicle had not been severed." If Hart were guilty of being the lone perpetrator, of course this would have to have been the case, as all three victims's bodies contained the same spermatazoa.

* By 1981, three years after the trial, a total of 12 OSBI agents who worked the crimes, including the book's authors, had resigned their positions, along with a chemist who worked the case for the Bureau; another agent "stepped down as Inspector-in-charge of the NE OK Regional Office."

I'm sure that many OSBI personnel were disgruntled by the trial's outcome; I'm also sure that this number of resignations is high, even given that dissatisfaction. One wonders how many resigned because of disgruntlement with the Bureau itself, and its "Hart did it; Hart alone" handling of the case---or if some of them perhaps resigned under pressure, for not entirely "being on the same page" as the Bureau in regards aspects of the evidence used against Hart.

* The book names two other possible suspects, including Jack Schroff, whose farm was within two miles of the camp, and which he reported had been burgalized; Schroff identified the duct tape found at the crime scene as looking like tape he had owned which he reported stolen; he later "remembered" his roll of tape "had his initials on the inside," thus refuting his earlier ID.

Agents worked on the assumption that the burglary might have been staged "when Schroff realized that he had left his flashlight and tape at the scene." Schroff later passed a lie detector test, but, shortly afterwards, became upset and refused to allow OSBI agents to search his home in Tulsa.

* Another possible suspect was Bill Stevens: "Kimberly Lewis, a young scout who was at Camp Scott during the murders...testified that she saw a man who resembled Stevens" the night of the crimes. "She said that she had lifted up the back of her tent and shone a flashlight outside," and saw Stevens. After the trial, the three other girls in the tent did not remember the incident having taken place. A waitress near Locust Grove also reported seeing Stevens in her restaurant the morning after the crimes---looking down at his boots, which two others had claimed to have seen with, possibly, blood on them.

* Two crucial pieces of evidence---a mirror and a corncob pipe---were allegedly found at the home of Sam Pigeon, who hid Hart after the crimes. These items were not discovered during the first search of Pigeon's home, and it would be possible that, therefore, they were planted afterwards and "found" during the second search.

* Finally, while the authors seem fully to support OSBI's arrest of Hart, this exchange is reported between one of the authors and Tom Kennedy, who had recently been named head of OSBI: "I just know one thing," Kennedy tells Mike Wilkerson. "If we don't catch Gene Leroy Hart, it's the end of our bureau." It's a curious inclusion by the authors. One can also read it as, "We've put all our eggs in one basket and we must catch Hart." And, somehow, by whatever means, pin the murders on him alone.

 

[Oriah]

<* Allegedy, "His autopsy... revealed that Hart's vasectomy [which was done years before the killings] had not been successful; his left seminal vesicle had not been severed." If Hart were guilty of being the lone perpetrator, of course this would have to have been the case, as all three victims's bodies contained the same spermatazoa.>

I have always been confused by this. It doesn't rule out anything. And if LE has the analysis of those samples, LE knows exactly how many people perpetrated that aspect of this crime.

 

[wfgodot]

<* Allegedy, "His autopsy... revealed that Hart's vasectomy [which was done years before the killings] had not been successful; his left seminal vesicle had not been severed." If Hart were guilty of being the lone perpetrator, of course this would have to have been the case, as all three victims's bodies contained the same spermatazoa.>

I have always been confused by this. It doesn't rule out anything. And if LE has the analysis of those samples, LE knows exactly how many people perpetrated that aspect of this crime.

Yeppers, the whole issue of the deformed spermatazoa---which was made a big deal of because LE speculated Hart's vasectomy was "leaking," so to speak---seems to be moot after the revelation that an entire vesicle was intact. (I don't really know enough about the process or the results on subsequent emissions if one vesicle is left intact, though.)

The Wilkersons's book doesn't really tie up many loose ends, e.g. the above plus the bloody footprints (two pair) found on the tent floor; I just feel that they must have had some doubts about Hart being the only perp, though they follow the company line in their narrative. It's what the authors don't do, though, that is telling.

 

[Oriah]

Yeppers, the whole issue of the deformed spermatazoa---which was made a big deal of because LE speculated Hart's vasectomy was "leaking," so to speak---seems to be moot after the revelation that an entire vesicle was intact. (I don't really know enough about the process or the results on subsequent emissions if one vesicle is left intact, though.)

The Wilkersons's book doesn't really tie up many loose ends, e.g. the above plus the bloody footprints (two pair) found on the tent floor; I just feel that they must have had some doubts about Hart being the only perp, though they follow the company line in their narrative. It's what the authors don't do, though, that is telling.

Agree entirely.

 

[wfgodot]

Agree entirely.

Another aspect of the book I'd totally forgotten in the 28 years since I'd read it: the respect paid to the Cherokee religion and to the medicine men, and to the very possible efficacy of their practice. The book works because of the interplay of the OSBI/police procedural aspect, and the attention paid to the Cherokee way of knowledge (the latter has a bit of the "period piece" feel about it because of the massive interest in the Carlos Castenda books at the time).

 

[Nyla4]

In re: the 1989 tests ("three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did"), perspective is needed: the 1980 census listed the population of Oklahoma at 3,026,000 citizens. Those of Native American ancestry were vastly underreported by that census (three years after the murders). However, the Native population in Oklahoma would be about the same as today---about 7.8% of the population, or, roughly, 238,000 in 1977-80.

The estimate that "one in 7,700 would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did," would mean that over 30 other Native Americans in Oklahoma alone would have matched the same profile. The area around Locust Grove has a much higher concentration of Native Americans, perhaps the greatest in Oklahoma, given the vast Cherokee population---the 2000 census sets the Native population in Locust Grove itself at 32.50%. If at all accurate (which I doubt), the 1989 test estimate would, therefore, mean that perhaps 6-10 other Native Americans in the immediate area of Camp Scott would match the same profile.

That test, therefore, was, at best, not only "inconclusive" but highly inconclusive, and only served further to damn Hart twenty+ years after the fact. That must have been the only purpose for release of the information in the form it was released---as a vindication of LE for settling on Hart immediately and taking him to trial.

Gene Leroy Hart was railroaded from the start, and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of the Locust Grove murders. (It's also true that he may indeed not be innocent of participation in the crimes.) I find his premature death in 1979 in the Oklahoma State Prison at McAlester to be very suspicious; I doubt he would have been able to endure even for a short time his dexterous fitness regime if his heart had have been in the alleged condition it was "found" to be at autopsy.

(A word about the Locust Grove-area residents---and there seems to have been plenty of them---who aided Hart after his jailbreak: one must understand that what later became the state of Oklahoma was, first, the destination of the Cherokee tribes displaced from the Carolinas and Georgia and made to march westward on what would become known as The Trail of Tears. Those who reached Indian Territory here were told that this was their land under treaty in perpetuity. As the terms of very nearly all treaties were broken by the white man, so too here: most of the land given was subsequently taken away, and prejudice against Native Americans in Oklahoma became the norm. Hart's rape conviction may well have seemed to Cherokees in the area as yet another sad sham of white "justice." [Full disclosure: I am part Cherokee.] )

I thought that Hart had a vasectomy that didn't take on one of his testes causing deformed sperm and that this deformed sperm was found on the samples taken from one of the girls? Please correct me if I'm wrong. What you say about the DNA potentially matching 6 to 10 other Native American men in the Locust Grove area makes me think I may be wrong in my belief that Hart is guilty.(if I was also wrong about Gene Leroy Hart's botched vasectomy) Can you give me examples of how Hart was railroaded? I have the book Someone Cry for the Children. Do you think this book is biased and just plain wrong about the case?

 

[wfgodot]

I thought that Hart had a vasectomy that didn't take on one of his testes causing deformed sperm and that this deformed sperm was found on the samples taken from one of the girls? Please correct me if I'm wrong. What you say about the DNA potentially matching 6 to 10 other Native American men in the Locust Grove area makes me think I may be wrong in my belief that Hart is guilty.(if I was also wrong about Gene Leroy Hart's botched vasectomy) Can you give me examples of how Hart was railroaded? I have the book Someone Cry for the Children. Do you think this book is biased and just plain wrong about the case?

The book was written by former OSBI agents who defended every aspect of LE's case against Hart; to me, that shows natural bias.

It is not satisfactory to dismiss the jurors's verdict: they found Hart not guilty, and they heard every bit of evidence presented by the prosecution attempting to establish Hart's guilt.

As for "railroading," to me the most telling aspect was LE's "discovery" of two crucial pieces of evidence - the mirror and the corncob pipe, later identified by one of the older Scouts as having belonged to her - at the home of Mr. Pigeon during a second search.

The book attempts to establish in the reader's mind that, because Hart was Native American, the people of the region, and thus the jurors, were biased in his favor; he was "one of them." It does not do enough to investigate the corollary: that Hart was singled out in the first place because he was the convenient, Locust Grove-area, "bad Indian."

Justice is almost always said to have been served when a jury returns a guilty verdict; but justice is also served when a jury finds a defendant not guilty.

 

[pudd]

Justice is almost always said to have been served when a jury returns a guilty verdict; but justice is also served when a jury finds a defendant not guilty.

wfgodot, this is the best thing I've read in ages. Very good point!

 

[wfgodot]

Not saying for a minute that the jury in the Hart trial made the wrong decision, but my last thought above is part and parcel with the English jurist William Blackstone's statement, "Better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer." (The principle goes at least all the way back to Genesis 18:23-32.)

 

[Nyla4]

The book was written by former OSBI agents who defended every aspect of LE's case against Hart; to me, that shows natural bias.

It is not satisfactory to dismiss the jurors's verdict: they found Hart not guilty, and they heard every bit of evidence presented by the prosecution attempting to establish Hart's guilt.

As for "railroading," to me the most telling aspect was LE's "discovery" of two crucial pieces of evidence - the mirror and the corncob pipe, later identified by one of the older Scouts as having belonged to her - at the home of Mr. Pigeon during a second search.

The book attempts to establish in the reader's mind that, because Hart was Native American, the people of the region, and thus the jurors, were biased in his favor; he was "one of them." It does not do enough to investigate the corollary: that Hart was singled out in the first place because he was the convenient, Locust Grove-area, "bad Indian."

Justice is almost always said to have been served when a jury returns a guilty verdict; but justice is also served when a jury finds a defendant not guilty.

That is so offensive of the authors! That makes me so mad! :banghead: I first heard of this case when I was reading at the boards for the A&E channel about a year and a half ago so I am still new to this case and all of the facts. I don't understand how no one heard the girls screaming. To me there is a difference between girls shrieking in a playful and screaming in fright. Do you think someone on the Camp staff could have been an accomplice or involved in some way?

BTW Thank you for your knowledge on the DNA.

 

[rosario]

this is one of the most terrifying and sad cases i have read....i think they (le) owe it to everyone, victims, families,community, native americans in the area, and law enforcement to explore absolutely every aspect of evidence possible to seek the truth...so horrible..

 

[EziliGede]

I'm currently reading Someone Cry For The Children, and I must admit, this case gives me the absolute chills. I feel the book tries hard to push Hart as the sole suspect, and there is damning evidence to point to him. However, I personally feel that Hart didn't act alone (if guilty), I think he had an accomplice.
In the book, there's so many eye witnesses to strange going ons at the campsite on that night. I have to wonder what else would come to light if they were reinterviewed.
My biggest hesitation to accuse Hart is that he's never targeted children before, all of his past victims have been adults. He's also never been guilty of murder before. Of course, this doesn't prove anything as he might have changed focused, but I do find it hinky that his past crimes don't immediately point to these murders. MOO.

 

[Snarky247]

My best friend was at Camp Scott that night. I was so jealous of her being able to go to a "real" sleepaway camp. I'll never forget her comments after the killings - (paraphrasing) "I heard screams" "I thought I was having a bad dream" & "It could have been me & I don't want to talk about it." We've talked hundreds of times since then & except for that one conversation, we don't speak of it.It breaks my heart because I know it affects her & how she raises her kids today.

 

[cdp1983]

This case is absolutely terrifying.... Every little detail about it... Scares me even more to know I live less that 2 hours from that spot. I am a little surprised I have never heard about this! I was born in 83, and just stumbled upon the story yesterday. My girls will never go to scout camp, or any camp for that matter after discovering this story...

 

[crazyladi]

I am a girl guide leader in Canada and after reading this it has made me thing twice about sending my daughter in the summer again.

 

[crazyladi]

Summer camp where they go for a week and sleepover in tents

 

[wfgodot]

OETA "Stateline" documentary looks back at the crime:

"There's a thumb print on the flashlight and it's not Hart's thumb print."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74wzoxJ_vxM