Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #6 *Arrests*

[imstilla.grandma]

Cullum, Adams, Cora, Cole and Grice are scheduled to appear back in court on May 15.

5th suspect tied to Kansas women’s murders denied bond

A fifth suspect charged with the murders of Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley is making his first appearance in court today.

www.newschannel10.com

 

[Gae]

Grice: "I'm sorry for your loss."

That burns the **** out of me.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes could’ve been somebody’s assigned task but they didn’t follow through for a reason such as that. Perhaps TA had already left and didn’t know the abandoned Kia was visable from the highway?

I appreciate the topography is quite flat around there but it strikes me as a bit odd for the misfits to go to such lengths to maneuver a vehicle off a highway, yet in a location where the abandoned vehicle can still be seen. I wonder if this location was a last ditch effort after an earlier planned attempt at another murderous detour failed?

The area near the Oklahoma-Kansas border where the vehicle the two women were traveling in was found abandoned, according to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. (Google Maps)

Missing moms’ car found abandoned in Oklahoma

Authorities say there are “suspicious” circumstances regarding Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley’s disappearance.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[anneoakley63]

Aside from just my gut feeling that the Kia was never planned to be hauled away in the stock trailer, I still believe it would have been extremely difficult, and not a very quick task, to load it onto the trailer, IF it would even fit. While there are some that are 8 feet wide, the standard stock trailer is 7'wide, with an actual interior width of about 6'8". The width of a Kia Sportage, which is what I have read VB owned, but also the width of most misdsized KIas, is about the same, depending on year, is about 6'1, and that does not take into account the external mirrors on either side, which could be folded in. Assuming the trailer had a ramp capable of driving the Kia into the trailer on, it would have been a helluva tight squeeze, at absolute best, to get the car inside. It certainly would not be a matter of jumping in the car, driving up and in, and being gone in a couple minutes time. And the driver was not getting out, unless the car had a sunroof.

I do not believe the stock trailer was ever planned to haul the car, nor do I believe that it realistically could have. I believe it's role was merely to block the road, and perhaps provide the means of getting the victims to the burial site. JMO

BBM - this has been my line of thinking from the very beginning. Block the road, force V to use the side road, have the rest of the crew waiting for her down the road. The sheer terror these two victims must have felt is mind-blowing. TA thinks an awful lot of herself. Will be interesting to see how much power she has in prison.

 

[charmingbetsy]

Grice: "I'm sorry for your loss."

That burns the **** out of me.

It's just such a weird thing to say. Under the circumstances, there's something cold, dehumanizing, and unsympathetic about that statement. I know he's got to have a screw loose for killing two women, but just how many screws up there are rolling around?

 

[Error505]

According to Beasly, who owned the property, Tad Cullum started digging the hole on March 29th and possibly finished digging it the morning of March 30th.

That’s a LOT of digging to dispose of two women, especially using a borrowed backhoe. Borrowed a stock trailer just to block the road, but 2 vehicles could have blocked the road. I’m beginning to think the plan was to put the car in the stock trailer and bury it with the women. Sounds crazy, but we are dealing with crazies!
MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

Grice: "I'm sorry for your loss."

That burns the **** out of me.

Then you might like this WS Thread.....

What case really burns your butt?

Good news. Parole denied. https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/parole-board-issues-full-reasons-28282117 They're keeping Colin Pitchfork in for now, too, thank goodness.

www.websleuths.com

 

[Cool Cats]

That’s a LOT of digging to dispose of two women, especially using a borrowed backhoe. Borrowed a stock trailer just to block the road, but 2 vehicles could have blocked the road. I’m beginning to think the plan was to put the car in the stock trailer and bury it with the women. Sounds crazy, but we are dealing with crazies!
MOO

One does have to wonder..... if this car situation is what Cora meant when she told her 16 year old
daughter this.....

"Things did not go as planned"

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Bbm.
Indeed.
Too bad they can't tell him, "Well since you've decided to renounce your citizenship you'll have to hire someone from outside the country, or represent yourself."
Omo.

Perhaps he could represent himself? That would solve many problems I shall not go into here. MOO

 

[Error505]

Grice: "I'm sorry for your loss."

That burns the **** out of me.

Burns me too, but that is the only sign of remorse we’ve gotten out of the 5 murderers! A small sign of remorse tells me, he’s not “one of the gang” any longer. It was reported he confessed when arrested. The DA sure could use a state’s witness who has first hand knowledge. PG doesn’t have the decades long friendship nor the marital relationship the others have! I hope he talks a blue streak that’s all admissible in court! MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

Burns me too, but that is the only sign of remorse we’ve gotten out of the 5 murderers! A small sign of remorse tells me, he’s not “one of the gang” any longer. It was reported he confessed when arrested. The DA sure could use a state’s witness who has first hand knowledge. PG doesn’t have the decades long friendship nor the marital relationship the others have! I hope he talks a blue streak that’s all admissible in court! MOO

Have these 5 been charged under the DP yet?

The DP gets defendants to talk 95% of the time from what I have seen.....2 Cents

 

[GRT]

The 2 Twombly's blocked the road forcing the 2 women to turn onto a quiet side road which led to the 3 others waiting in ambush.

It does seem like one of the 3 others would have been tasked with driving the women's car away and the only reason not to do so would be that the car key could not be found.

However, these killers were stupid enough to leave 2 burner phones 8.5 miles away at the burial site so they could have planned to leave the car 3 miles off the main road where the ambush occurred.

2 Cents

If I recall correctly -- and that's a big "if," -- the ambush took place just 1000 feet off the highway. So, about 2/10ths of a mile. That's close enough to the Highway that the women should have seen other cars if they were waiting down there.

Would they have willingly turned toward an ambush? Or, were they being pursued hot and heavy and the other vehicles overtook and passed them on the dirt road and then cut them off?

What if they hadn't have turned? I'm thinking there had to be one or more vehicles chasing them from behind when the spotted the blocked road in front.

All JMOO...

 

[SteveP]

That’s a LOT of digging to dispose of two women, especially using a borrowed backhoe. Borrowed a stock trailer just to block the road, but 2 vehicles could have blocked the road. I’m beginning to think the plan was to put the car in the stock trailer and bury it with the women. Sounds crazy, but we are dealing with crazies!
MOO

My thoughts only differ from yours in that I believe the plan was for someone (PG?) to drive the Kia to the burial site, but until I hear something that would make my gut feeling impossible, I have thought since the moment I first heard that a skid steer was used to predig a hole, that the car was definitely supposed to end up in it, along with the two victims. I even posted a link to a video, maybe in the last thread, showing how easily it would be to dig a hole big enough to do the job, relatively quickly, and poster @Ksfarmer8 stated that she has dug such a hole with a skid steer before (though NOT for any nefarious purpose). JMO

 

[PommyMommy]

MAY 1, 2024

Man makes court appearance in murdered Kansas moms case

A man who was arrested last week in the deaths of Jillian Kelley and Veronica Butler made his first court appearance on Wednesday in Texas County, Oklahoma.

www.ksn.com

Grice is expected to return to the courthouse on May 15 with the other four people who have been arrested and charged in connection to the deaths of Butler and Kelley: 54-year-old Tifany Adams, 43-year-old Tad Cullum, 44-year-old Cora Twombly and 50-year-old Cole Twombly.

Grice will get a public defender since he said he can’t afford to hire his own.

 

[SteveP]

Just out of curiosity, are all of the 5 killers housed in the same jail, for the time being, while awaiting trials? Are there even enough cells to house them all? If they are, I certainly hope they have tight security. JMO

 

[al66pine]

Kidnapping Statute in OK?

Under Oklahoma statute § 21-741, kidnapping is the unlawful abduction, confinement or restraint of a person against his or her will.
How were they moved?

@Cool Cats Sorry if already covered.

HOW moved? Likely w TA & crew making threat, or by duress.
Maybe w vics walking on own feet.
How FAR moved? Even a few steps can "count as far enough" in ct. opinions I've read (not from OK. No links.) Conviction for this offense does not require the perp to out bag over vic's head, etc., as TV & movies often show. See statute below.

OK statute: "§21-741. Kidnapping defined.
"Any person who, without lawful authority, seizes, confines, inveigles, decoys, kidnaps, abducts, or carries away another, with intent, either:
"1. To cause such other person to be confined or imprisoned in this state against the will of the other person; or....
shall be guilty of a felony punishable....for a term not exceeding twenty (20) years.
"....consent thereto of the person kidnapped or confined, shall not be a defense, unless it appears satisfactorily to the jury, that such person was above the age of twelve (12) years, and that such consent was not extorted by threat, or by duress."

2023 Oklahoma Statutes :: Title 21. Crimes and Punishments :: §21-741. Kidnapping defined.

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

Universal Citation: 21 OK Stat § 741 (2023)

 

[GRT]

My thoughts only differ from yours in that I believe the plan was for someone (PG?) to drive the Kia to the burial site, but until I hear something that would make my gut feeling impossible, I have thought since the moment I first heard that a skid steer was used to predig a hole, that the car was definitely supposed to end up in it, along with the two victims. I even posted a link to a video, maybe in the last thread, showing how easily it would be to dig a hole big enough to do the job, relatively quickly, and poster @Ksfarmer8 stated that she has dug such a hole with a skid steer before (though NOT for any nefarious purpose). JMO

I'm thinking along the same lines. Someone was supposed to drive the Kia.

I kind of doubt they brought a trailer to the ambush--just because, what a pain! It takes some skill to back one up and the stock trailers I've seen have double-gate doors on the back and they don't have ramps because they typically back them up to the loading dock and herd the livestock in.

All speculation of course, but I'm thinking the Twombly's blocked the highway with two vehicles and there were two more vehicles behind them--chasing them. I'm thinking that two people were in one of the vehicles pursuing them. That extra person--maybe PG was supposed to drive the Kia away -- but when the women turned off the highway and tried to flee down L road, one of their pursuers passed them, maybe rammed the Kia and forced them off the road. At that point, I think the Kia was damaged and no longer driveable.

Maybe they were going to come back and get it, but VB's family showed up first.

All JMOO...

 

[PommyMommy]

MAY 1, 2024

Paul Grice, suspect in Kansas moms killings, can’t afford attorney

Paul Grice, 31, was arrested and charged in the kidnappings and murders of Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley.

www.newsnationnow.com

[...]

The scene at Grice’s court appearance Wednesday was much calmer than at a previous hearing for the other four suspects, where victims of the family members had to be held back, swearing at the accused as they entered the building.

Grice said he will need a public defender appointed for him as he can’t afford to hire a private lawyer. According to the court documents, Grice admitted he was part of the planning, killing and burying of Butler and Kelley.

When asked by a NewsNation reporter while walking into court if he had anything to say to the victims’ families, Grice said, “Sorry for their loss.”

To his family, Grice said, “I miss them. I love them.”

Residents of Guymon, Oklahoma, who spoke to NewsNation said he lived with his wife and kids out in the country. Grice’s wife, NewsNation was told, has since left town with the children and says she knew absolutely nothing about the alleged killings.

[...]

 

[ClearAhead]

The area near the Oklahoma-Kansas border where the vehicle the two women were traveling in was found abandoned, according to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. (Google Maps)

Missing moms’ car found abandoned in Oklahoma

Authorities say there are “suspicious” circumstances regarding Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley’s disappearance.

www.newsnationnow.com

Thanks for linking the photo. Hardly any shoulders to those roads, if the women had sensed impending danger I wonder what prevented them from doing a quick U-turn and fleeing? But the last thing they would’ve expected is a group of mostly middle-aged adults suddenly attacking them as viciously as a bunch of crazed drug-deprived heroin addicts desperate for a fix.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/21/us/oklahoma-double-murder-plot/index.html

“Investigators believe Butler and Kelley were lured to the location, arriving there at about 9:40 a.m. They say the women were forced into another vehicle and confined there…

…She heard that her mother and stepfather blocked the road to stop Butler and Kelley in their vehicle and diverted them to where the others were waiting.”

 

[Gae]

Hardly any shoulders to those roads, if the women had sensed impending danger I wonder what prevented them from doing a quick U-turn and fleeing? But the last thing they would’ve expected is a group of mostly middle-aged adults suddenly attacking them as viciously as a bunch of crazed drug-deprived heroin addicts desperate for a fix...

Yes, we know the outcome - murder- but VB and JK didn't immediately know that's what was coming. Is it possible VB and JK thought it was Tifany and friends staging a weird intervention or come to Jesus meeting and at first were more angry and confused about this detour and meet-up than they were afraid for their lives? I could very well see that happening.