Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #6 *Arrests*

Wow. If I didn't hate all five already, I found a way to despise them more. The request for extension of time for withholding medical examiner reports, i.e. the release of the official cause of death to Veronica and Jilian is in part by the defendants' motion of discovery, so it was made by Tifany, Cole, Cora, Tad and Paul. This feels like the murders were much more brutal and horrible, for them to ask to withhold it from being released to the public.
I'm confused. the doc attached is a motion by the state to withhold, not by the defense? Six months is a long time and personally I would prefer to get that info sooner but evil defendants are not behind this.
 
I'm confused. the doc attached is a motion by the state to withhold, not by the defense? Six months is a long time and personally I would prefer to get that info sooner but evil defendants are not behind this.
Can you elaborate ?
My take on it is that they're building a case and some parts may be complicated; but the state wants to see the perps are fully held to account for everything that happened to Jillian and Veronica.
The last thing anyone should want to see is any of the five perps 'walking' on a technicality.
Imo.
Is this an instance of the state 'dotting their "I's" and crossing their "T's" ' ?
Omo.
 
Can you elaborate ?
My take on it is that they're building a case and some parts may be complicated; but the state wants to see the perps are fully held to account for everything that happened to Jillian and Veronica.
The last thing anyone should want to see is any of the five perps 'walking' on a technicality.
Imo.
Is this an instance of the state 'dotting their "I's" and crossing their "T's" ' ?
Omo.
Agreed. The state is still building/strengthening its case. They've asked the autopsy results be withheld while they continue to do that. I think they have certain evidence they believe exists and they're still trying to nail it down. They don't want those results in the hands of the defense so that that evidence suddenly disappears or becomes not available. JMO as to the possible why.

I just don't follow the line of thinking that this motion is some big evil conspiracy ultimately caused by the defendants audacity in asking for discovery (well within their rights and a part of the normal course of criminal case business) as suggested upthread.
 
Agreed. The state is still building/strengthening its case. They've asked the autopsy results be withheld while they continue to do that. I think they have certain evidence they believe exists and they're still trying to nail it down. They don't want those results in the hands of the defense so that that evidence suddenly disappears or becomes not available. JMO as to the possible why.

I just don't follow the line of thinking that this motion is some big evil conspiracy ultimately caused by the defendants audacity in asking for discovery (well within their rights and a part of the normal course of criminal case business) as suggested upthread.
Thanks for explaining -- I think if the perps could "wrangle" some sort of 'deal' they would; however as far as the cause of death being withheld , that is beyond their power.
(pun unintended)

Graphic warning :

IF the victims were tortured with stun guns or blunt instruments prior to their death, that may be able to be proven -- but again I'm unsure on this.
Omo.

Eta : I do hope every injury and horror inflicted on these women can be proven !
 
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<snipped by me for focus> They don't want those results in the hands of the defense so that that evidence suddenly disappears or becomes not available.
Won't the defendants still have access to the full report via their discovery requests to the prosecution? I'm under the impression that the motion to extend the time to withhold the full report is to withhold it from public access. If there are plea deals being negotiated, I don't see how the defendants could fully negotiate without having access to the full report...?
 
Won't the defendants still have access to the full report via their discovery requests to the prosecution? I'm under the impression that the motion to extend the time to withhold the full report is to withhold it from public access. If there are plea deals being negotiated, I don't see how the defendants could fully negotiate without having access to the full report...?
possibly in order to keep it being disseminated to those not currently charged while keeping the door open to gather evidence and charge others who may have been peripherally involved?
 
Where did you see that Paul Grice had hired a private attorney? He had indicated he could not afford one during his court appearance. Did something change?


Oklahoma Indigent Defense System is not listed for Grice or Cullum but it is listed for the 3
others. Private attorneys will represent indigent defendants but the State will only pay them the "indigent"
rate. In other words they have to accept the State's reimbursements and can't charge more.
 

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Won't the defendants still have access to the full report via their discovery requests to the prosecution? I'm under the impression that the motion to extend the time to withhold the full report is to withhold it from public access. If there are plea deals being negotiated, I don't see how the defendants could fully negotiate without having access to the full report...?

Yes the defense has to have all the autopsy information, the cause of death is what the entire case is about. So I am sure they have it.

The entire case accuses the defendants of 2 murders and kidnapping. The autopsy must say that the cause of death is homicide. The injuries cause the death but the injuries are from homicide.

In an accidental death the injuries cause the death but the injuries are from an accident.

2 Cents
 
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TBH, there's a possibility that bits and pieces of the autopsy report may get leaked before they're officially released to the general public. Distraught family members can sometimes have a difficult time not telling friends and others. Family members have already released some info that hasn't been officially released. Not blaming or shaming - it just happens in times of despair.
 
Yes the defense has to have all the autopsy information, the cause of death is what the entire case is about. So I am sure they have it.

The entire case accuses the defendants of 2 murders and kidnapping. The autopsy must say that the cause of death is homicide. The injuries cause the death but the injuries are from homicide.

In an accidental death the injuries cause the death but the injuries are from an accident.

2 Cents
Manner of Death is what this case is about. We don't know the cause of death of these women but I believe the murder charges are a result of the ME's determination that Manner of Death= homicide.

JMO
 
Manner of Death is what this case is about. We don't know the cause of death of these women but I believe the murder charges are a result of the ME's determination that Manner of Death= homicide.

JMO

The point is that the defense needs to have the autopsy report to prove homicide.
 
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Manner of Death is what this case is about. We don't know the cause of death of these women but I believe the murder charges are a result of the ME's determination that Manner of Death= homicide.

JMO
You are correct. Manner of death is homicide. I would imagine that releasing the complete report with the cause of death may possibly inflame the general public to the point that everyone wants to hang each defendant or it may be that the general public just doesn't need to know and the families would rather not have those details publicized before they have time to come to terms with that knowledge. I can imagine how awful it would be to have your children be told something like that by another child or for them to overhear someone else talking about it.
moo
 
Private attorneys will represent indigent defendants but the State will only pay them the "indigent"
rate. In other words they have to accept the State's reimbursements and can't charge more.
As a side note, in some rural counties, all attorney's registered in the county (represent clients there) are considered "reserve public defenders".

The names of the attorneys are kept on a duty roster. When somebody qualifies for a public defender, the next attorney on the list is assigned the case by the Court and must take the case at the standard reimbursement rate.

The only way out for the attorney is to demonstrate that you are totally unqualified for that type of case. My impression is that the attorney must be truly unqualified or else many would find ways to get out of it. If they have defended others in severe felony trials, then they can do a death penalty case.

In a trial that my high school debate club watched, a homicide defendant got lucky and drew the best defense attorney in the County who was the father of a debate club member. (Ok, big fish in a small pond, but he was still the local best). My friend then sat with us got to see her father's best efforts live and in person- to no avail as there was over whelming evidence of guilt.
 
You are correct. Manner of death is homicide. I would imagine that releasing the complete report with the cause of death may possibly inflame the general public to the point that everyone wants to hang each defendant or it may be that the general public just doesn't need to know and the families would rather not have those details publicized before they have time to come to terms with that knowledge. I can imagine how awful it would be to have your children be told something like that by another child or for them to overhear someone else talking about it.
moo
I agree. They have a right to a fair trial and I will not be surprised if the prosecution wants the death penalty. I think a Judge will decide (or maybe has already decided) that the release the report publicly prior to trial would be prejudicial to the defense. But I have no doubt that the defense attorneys have access to it.

JMO
 
The defense will have access to the autopsy report.

JMO

Please read the original posts I said that I believe the defense has the autopsy.

There was speculation that with the new Motion requesting to withhold the autopsy from the public that it would be withheld from the defense and I believe the defense already has it.
 
As a side note, in some rural counties, all attorney's registered in the county (represent clients there) are considered "reserve public defenders".

The names of the attorneys are kept on a duty roster. When somebody qualifies for a public defender, the next attorney on the list is assigned the case by the Court and must take the case at the standard reimbursement rate.

The only way out for the attorney is to demonstrate that you are totally unqualified for that type of case. My impression is that the attorney must be truly unqualified or else many would find ways to get out of it. If they have defended others in severe felony trials, then they can do a death penalty case.

In a trial that my high school debate club watched, a homicide defendant got lucky and drew the best defense attorney in the County who was the father of a debate club member. (Ok, big fish in a small pond, but he was still the local best). My friend then sat with us got to see her father's best efforts live and in person- to no avail as there was over whelming evidence of guilt.

If these 5 defendants end up having Capital cases then they might need death qualified attorneys.
 
As a side note, in some rural counties, all attorney's registered in the county (represent clients there) are considered "reserve public defenders".

The names of the attorneys are kept on a duty roster. When somebody qualifies for a public defender, the next attorney on the list is assigned the case by the Court and must take the case at the standard reimbursement rate.

The only way out for the attorney is to demonstrate that you are totally unqualified for that type of case. My impression is that the attorney must be truly unqualified or else many would find ways to get out of it. If they have defended others in severe felony trials, then they can do a death penalty case.

In a trial that my high school debate club watched, a homicide defendant got lucky and drew the best defense attorney in the County who was the father of a debate club member. (Ok, big fish in a small pond, but he was still the local best). My friend then sat with us got to see her father's best efforts live and in person- to no avail as there was over whelming evidence of guilt.
The state of Georgia does the same thing. My brother is a private attorney there (and doesn’t even currently work in criminal law — although he used to work for the US Attorney General) and he’s had to serve as a public defender in the past. If the court has more cases than the current public defender’s office can handle, all members of the Georgia Bar are subject to being assigned to handle the case. The court essentially goes down the list and assigns them on a rotation.
 

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