OR OR - David 'Dave' Lewis, 46, Ashland, 4 September 2008

[Red Clover]

This is a repost of my favorite post in the whole thread

So who would know about the yellow tape that marked Conde Creek road?

That's very specific information and apparently I'm "right spot-on the facts"

Only someone who actually placed the yellow flagging, saw it personally or was told that the road was marked by someone who placed the tape or saw it themselves.

So why was Conde creek road marked?

So you wouldn't inadvertently miss the turnoff of course!

Who placed the flagging?

What does sickophant even mean? Is that even a word?
Does it just mean sicko?

Someone was clearly a thinker to plan all this.

I'm also thinking they were a night person and accustomed to being awake and active into the wee hours.

Whoever it was, they are or were strong and physically capable of overpowering or at least disabling Dave. (They also could have snuck in while he was snoozing)

They also had the means to kill him and set his home on fire, flee into the night and still set another more obvious fire 6 miles away before disappearing... somewhere.

A night owl?

Menopausal perhaps? Lol
(I say that because my own sleep schedules are so different than they used to be)

Someone used to operating without the benefit of sunlight?

Who's wandering the forests at the summit of Dead Indian Memorial Road on a moonless late summer night in the Siskiyou mountains (6500') 13 miles or more from any town?

Let alone murdering men and burning down houses?

I mean who does that?

Both Troy and Dave were murdered in the middle of the night, in the wee hours of morning.

All three fires were set in the middle of the night (reported between 1:00-4:00 am)

I wonder what the statistics are for murders at this time of day.

Plus- I can't emphasize enough how incredibly rural/remote of an area we're talking. Miles and miles of forest and lakes and meadows and mountains. Truly stunning country.

 

[Red Clover]

For those of you not familiar with the area

Hyatt Lake And Resort In Southern Oregon

Hyatt Lake and the Resort are located in Jackson County Southern Oregon with a serene mountain atmosphere.

www.southernoregon.com

Cascade–Siskiyou National Monument - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Red Clover]

For those of you not familiar with the area

Hyatt Lake And Resort In Southern Oregon

Hyatt Lake and the Resort are located in Jackson County Southern Oregon with a serene mountain atmosphere.

www.southernoregon.com

Cascade–Siskiyou National Monument - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Webcam at the 13 mile marker which is as close to Dave's driveway as you can get

Jackson County - Dead Indian Memorial Rd. Summit, Oregon Road and Traffic Cam

Oregon Road Cam - Jackson County - Dead Indian Memorial Rd. Summit - Live traffic cam view

www.oregontravels.com

 

[Red Clover]

Both Troy and Dave were murdered in the middle of the night, in the wee hours of morning.

All three fires were set in the middle of the night (reported between 1:00-4:00 am)

I wonder what the statistics are for murders at this time of day.

Plus- I can't emphasize enough how incredibly rural/remote of an area we're talking. Miles and miles of forest and lakes and meadows and mountains. Truly stunning country.

I love me some statistics!
Fascinating!

When Do Homicides Usually Happen? A Breakdown By Month, Week, And Hour | Oxygen Official Site

When do most murders happen? It’s a question that not just criminologists think about, but many people as they go about their daily lives.

www.oxygen.com

Deadliest hour

It turns out that many murders happen after midnight and into the wee hours. Crimeinamerica.com, which analyzes federal and state criminality data, concluded after reviewing 2018 FBI data that the deadliest time of day is midnight-1:00 a.m. Homicide figures stayed relatively high until 3 a.m.


More recently, Denver Police Department homicide figures showed that the wee hours were indeed most deadly. Of the 96 Denver homicides during 2021, more than a third, or 35, took place between midnight and 5 a.m., reported westword.com.

 

[Red Clover]

I love me some statistics!
Fascinating!

When Do Homicides Usually Happen? A Breakdown By Month, Week, And Hour | Oxygen Official Site

When do most murders happen? It’s a question that not just criminologists think about, but many people as they go about their daily lives.

www.oxygen.com

Deadliest hour

It turns out that many murders happen after midnight and into the wee hours. Crimeinamerica.com, which analyzes federal and state criminality data, concluded after reviewing 2018 FBI data that the deadliest time of day is midnight-1:00 a.m. Homicide figures stayed relatively high until 3 a.m.


More recently, Denver Police Department homicide figures showed that the wee hours were indeed most deadly. Of the 96 Denver homicides during 2021, more than a third, or 35, took place between midnight and 5 a.m., reported westword.com.

Arson, oh my!

Arson Statistics: Who is setting the fires and how often does arson occur?

Arson statistics information from 1997 to 2006.

www.fire-extinguisher101.com

Current Punishment Procedures in the United States
Most often, fires are set during the night, making it difficult for investigators to find an eye witness. Nonetheless, many arson cases are solved and brought to trial <snipped> The punishment for such crimes varies from state to state, and the graveness of the crime is taken into consideration. Though extremely rare, some states will implement capital punishment if the arson case involves the death of a victim. The most common sentence is on average 7 years, but if the property involved occupied residential homes, the sentence can entail an average of 20 years or more.

https://www.atf.gov/arson/docs/report/annual-arson-incident-report-2021/download

Arson-Homicides: Findings From a National Study | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

 

[Red Clover]

Some old articles

September 7 2008

'The most loving man on the mountain' | MailTribune.com

Friends and family of David Edwin Lewis continue to mourn the man they called "the most loving man on the mountain" while they await word on suspicious fires that destroyed his house and one other on Dead Indian Memorial Road Thursday.

web.archive.org

September 25 2008

Cabin fire probe continues | MailTribune.com

Jackson County Sheriff Mike Winters said his department is continuing an "active criminal investigation" into a pair of house fires on Dead Indian Memorial Road earlier this month and the death of a man who lived in one of the destroyed homes.

web.archive.org

October 12 2008

Sister of missing man offers $20,000 reward | MailTribune.com

The sister of a man feared dead after a body was found inside his burned-out cabin on Dead Indian Memorial Road early last month is offering a $20,000 reward for the arrest of whomever is responsible for the suspicious disappearance of David E. Lewis.

web.archive.org

David Lewis' friends and family, fearing the worst, held a memorial for him on the mountain Sept. 14. Lewis' sister, Linda Lewis Miller, has posted the $20,000 reward for information leading to an arrest in the case. She also posted a $5,000 reward for "pertinent information leading to an answer," said Donna Allen of Ashland, in an e-mail to the Mail Tribune Wednesday.

Miller could not be reached for comment.

Allen said she is creating a MySpace page to look for answers to her friend's disappearance. Lewis' page will be placed under the heading of missing and unsolved murders, Allen said.

"I also have him listed on some Web sites about unsolved cases," Allen said.

August 13 2013

Ashland High Profile Murder Case Resumes | KDRV

It remains one of Ashland's most high profile crimes. Dave Lewis, a man family members say was a loving friend and father, was killed five years ago. The case

web.archive.org

“I don’t care who the victim was or what they did in life, they did not deserve to be murdered, and the people who did that do deserve to pay for their crime,” Pollock said.

Lewis’s family says justice can’t come soon enough.

“I just don’t feel safe with someone out there running around who is capable of causing that much destruction in people’s lives,” Casey Lewis said.

September 5 2014

Unsolved homicide plagues investigators six years later - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

Medford, Ore. — September 4, 2008 an Ashland man was killed inside him home that burned down. Now six years later Jackson County Sheriff’s investigators are still trying to connect the dots. “It’s an ongoing investigation. It’s a giant puzzle we’re trying. We’ve talked to hundreds if not dozens...

kobi5.com

If you have a tip please contact the Jackson County Sheriff’s office at 541-774-8333.

 

[Red Clover]

Are you suggesting that David and I didn't have this conversation, because we did, approximately 10 days before he passed.

We also discussed the 2008 election, the ridiculous vp candidate with a view of Russia (oh how we chuckled! ), the situation at the lake, the dispute with his neighbors over the driveway and future development, the ground squirrels that were eating everything in his garden (even the potatoes he said!) and we also talked about the pellet gun he wasn't supposed to possess.

We even discussed death.

He told me about a neighbor that had passed from a heart attack on the mountain, the neighbor's wife was a nurse but couldn't save him. David kept saying "He didn't even make it to 50!"

We agreed we wouldn't want to know how how we were going to die.

Looking back it was eerily prophetic.

He was, absolutely, with no uncertainty on my part, expecting this individual to "just show up"

I believe they did and now Dave's not here.


EBM-for clarity and punctuation

We also discussed those two inheritance checks that he hadn't at that time cashed or put in a bank.

 

[Sillybilly]

WTHeck!?! Per your article:

At one camp, Cpt. Snaith says a strange item caught their eye, a yellow and black wolverine mask.

You can find it on the cover of the ‘Return of Wolverine’ comic book showing the mutant emerging from flames.

I had to Goog it as I didn't know what it is.

View attachment 458260
Source

Or less elaborate & different version (but still odd IMO):

View attachment 458261
Source
Either way... that's WIERD!!! It's not like it's a blue surgical mask post 2020 (Covid) which you'll see littering streets (or at least I do), and it's not like it's a ski mask to keep your face warm. It's decorative, and pretty darn odd, IMO, for it to be at a campsite!'

Orig source to keep things together: Unsolved So. Oregon: From the Ashes - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

Could this mean anything? "the mutant emerging from flames", or is it just a coincidence?

I would be interested in knowing how intact that mask is and if they are able to get DNA from it.

 

[Red Clover]

I would be interested in knowing how intact that mask is and if they are able to get DNA from it.

Unsolved So. Oregon: From the Ashes - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

MEDFORD, Ore. –“In this case we have some strong persons of interest. But we just don’t have enough to make a strong criminal case,” said Cpt. Tim Snaith, Jackson Co. Sheriff’s Office. Two shocking crimes miles apart yet connected. “I spent many agonizing months investigating this case,” said...

kobi5.com

Police tracked down the mask’s owner with the help of DNA evidence and questioned him as a person of interest.

As for why the mask was at the campsite in the first place, Cpt. Snaith says, police never asked.

“We did not make any connection,” he said.

The comic book symbol, not the only thing perplexing to investigators about the events of that September day.


Post in thread 'OR - Troy Carney, 44, Central Point, 4 Sept 2008'
_____________________________
OR - OR - Troy Carney, 44, Central Point, 4 Sept 2008

Hi @Sillybilly good to see you posting here!
RC

Troy Dean Carney's thread has more discussion on the wolverine mask. It was intact and they were able to get DNA off it and contact the owner, the JCSO does not consider him a suspect. AFAIK

 

[Red Clover]

I didn't know Paige had passed. Unusual that she's buried In Oregon. My condolences to David's family.

Interesting that Yellow tape may have marked Conde Creek Road on the day/night of the murder. Is that the same side of D.I.M. as David Lewis's driveway? I haven't seen that in any mainstream media coverage over the years. What's the source on that statement?

I'm still trying to understand how Sleuth2010 would know about the yellow tape being there "that day" specifically. There's been no explanation given so far.

If JCSO put up crime tape that would be AFTER the murder & fires. They wouldn't put up crime tape in anticipation of an event, would they?

WAS Conde Creek Road a crime scene?

Was there some evidence that someone went up that road that night? Or other physical evidence of blood or a weapon? A gun? An abandoned dirtbike? Clothing?

Who was on Dead Indian Memorial Road or Conde Creek Road during that Labor Day weekend and the week that followed? Campers? Bow hunters? Residents of course.

Who was camping up Conde Creek on Soda Creek or around Soda Springs area that Labor Day weekend and in the week that followed? Hikers? Campers? Dirt bikers? Locals? History buffs?

Could the fires that night at Dave's and the vacation cabin on DIMR be seen from Soda Creek Road or the historic Soda Springs Shelter which set high above DIMR?

Conde Creek Road turnoff of DIMR is approximately .5 miles from Dave's driveway and about 5.0-5.5 miles from the vacation cabin which sat right in full view of DIMR.

IIRC & AFAIK- Greensprings volunteer fire fighters would have had to use that road that runs between the Greensprings Highway (a steeper, windier, older highway between Ashland and Klamath Falls) and runs past Howard Prairie & Hyatt Lakes, Hyatt-Prairie Road, which serves as a cutoff between the Greensprings and Dead Indian Memorial Road and comes out near the vacant vacation cabin in order to get to the fires.

EBM for clarity

 

[Gemmie]

I'm still trying to understand how Sleuth2010 would know about the yellow tape being there "that day" specifically. There's been no explanation given so far.

If JCSO put up crime tape that would be AFTER the murder & fires. They wouldn't put up crime tape in anticipation of an event, would they?

WAS Conde Creek Road a crime scene?

Was there some evidence that someone went up that road that night? Or other physical evidence of blood or a weapon? A gun? An abandoned dirtbike? Clothing?

Who was on Dead Indian Memorial Road or Conde Creek Road during that Labor Day weekend and the week that followed? Campers? Bow hunters? Residents of course.

Who was camping up Conde Creek on Soda Creek or around Soda Springs area that Labor Day weekend and in the week that followed? Hikers? Campers? Dirt bikers? Locals? History buffs?

Could the fires that night at Dave's and the vacation cabin on DIMR be seen from Soda Creek Road or the historic Soda Springs Shelter which set high above DIMR?

Conde Creek Road turnoff of DIMR is approximately .5 miles from Dave's driveway and about 5.0-5.5 miles from the vacation cabin which sat right in full view of DIMR.

IIRC & AFAIK- Greensprings volunteer fire fighters would have had to use that road that runs between the Greensprings Highway (a steeper, windier, older highway between Ashland and Klamath Falls) and runs past Howard Prairie & Hyatt Lakes, Hyatt-Prairie Road, which serves as a cutoff between the Greensprings and Dead Indian Memorial Road and comes out near the vacant vacation cabin in order to get to the fires.

EBM for clarity

One thing that I can't get out of my head is why the 2 similar deaths close to each other? Either they are related somehow (as in they knew each other and/or have some sort of connection), or perhaps someone killed Troy so that it wouldn't look like Dave was specifically targeted. To make it look like there's a killer/arsonist on the loose and the 2 victims were simply coincidental (it could have been anyone killed in that general vicinity, but s/he ran across those 2 so they were 'it').

As for this article saying the bullet forensics were similar, but not the same, perhaps someone brought 2 guns specifically so the forensics couldn't tie the 2 murders together to one gun/person. If similar, that makes me think it's a gun type of choice for the killer (favorite gun with how they handle, etc.) I wonder if there's a way to tell if the bullets were the same type (like they could have come from the same box of ammo, just used in 2 different guns).

“The bullet that killed Mr. Carney and the one that killed Mr. Lewis are similar but the forensics don’t match.”

Unsolved homicide plagues investigators six years later - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

Medford, Ore. — September 4, 2008 an Ashland man was killed inside him home that burned down. Now six years later Jackson County Sheriff’s investigators are still trying to connect the dots. “It’s an ongoing investigation. It’s a giant puzzle we’re trying. We’ve talked to hundreds if not dozens...

kobi5.com

 

[Red Clover]

One thing that I can't get out of my head is why the 2 similar deaths close to each other? Either they are related somehow (as in they knew each other and/or have some sort of connection), or perhaps someone killed Troy so that it wouldn't look like Dave was specifically targeted. To make it look like there's a killer/arsonist on the loose and the 2 victims were simply coincidental (it could have been anyone killed in that general vicinity, but s/he ran across those 2 so they were 'it').

As for this article saying the bullet forensics were similar, but not the same, perhaps someone brought 2 guns specifically so the forensics couldn't tie the 2 murders together to one gun/person. If similar, that makes me think it's a gun type of choice for the killer (favorite gun with how they handle, etc.) I wonder if there's a way to tell if the bullets were the same type (like they could have come from the same box of ammo, just used in 2 different guns).

“The bullet that killed Mr. Carney and the one that killed Mr. Lewis are similar but the forensics don’t match.”

Unsolved homicide plagues investigators six years later - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

Medford, Ore. — September 4, 2008 an Ashland man was killed inside him home that burned down. Now six years later Jackson County Sheriff’s investigators are still trying to connect the dots. “It’s an ongoing investigation. It’s a giant puzzle we’re trying. We’ve talked to hundreds if not dozens...

kobi5.com

These are some particularly brilliant points, @Gemmie
I've also thought it's probably two guns but the same person, maybe even something someone kept for personal protection. I don't think the caliber has ever been released. It would be VERY interesting if they were the same brand/type/caliber of bullets, wouldn't it?

Someone else brought up (with me) the possibility that Troy's death could have been a red herring to throw off the scent of the case and make it so random but yet somehow connected as to be seemingly unresolvable.

I've thought that Troy was an unwitting witness and either knew who the person was, could identify them (Troy lived in the valley more than a decade before his death so maybe it was someone he knew or worked with previously and so they were friendly at the truck stop when they saw each other) or Troy had discussions with or encountered the person at the truck stop or camping on the greenway and had inquired about what they were doing in the valley or maybe just be able to identify them visually or by name.

Whoever it was knew they were camping in or under a blackberry(?) thicket, Troy's mom says he was way off the main path and in thick underbrush. She also said that he never let anyone know where he was camped.

Later the person must've decided Troy had to die because they knew too much or could id them and almost two weeks later (on the same day as Dave's memorial) returned to the scene to set it on fire.

ALL ABOVE IS IMOO, JMO OF COURSE

 

[Red Clover]

Does anyone know what "the meeting at Lindsey Ranch" refers to?

I've seen references to the meeting but never any actual explanation of the details or people involved.

Is this a known fact in the case?

Is it a conspiracy theory?

Who was supposedly involved?

Was it on 9/3/2008?

What was the purpose or subject of the meeting (again, supposed)?

Is Lindsey Ranch the same property the vacation cabin was on or adjacent to?

How close was the ranch to Lily Glen (a public property) or to the infamous quarry?

ANY OPINIONS ARE IMOO

 

[Gemmie]

One thing that I can't get out of my head is why the 2 similar deaths close to each other? Either they are related somehow (as in they knew each other and/or have some sort of connection), or perhaps someone killed Troy so that it wouldn't look like Dave was specifically targeted. To make it look like there's a killer/arsonist on the loose and the 2 victims were simply coincidental (it could have been anyone killed in that general vicinity, but s/he ran across those 2 so they were 'it').

As for this article saying the bullet forensics were similar, but not the same, perhaps someone brought 2 guns specifically so the forensics couldn't tie the 2 murders together to one gun/person. If similar, that makes me think it's a gun type of choice for the killer (favorite gun with how they handle, etc.) I wonder if there's a way to tell if the bullets were the same type (like they could have come from the same box of ammo, just used in 2 different guns).

“The bullet that killed Mr. Carney and the one that killed Mr. Lewis are similar but the forensics don’t match.”

Unsolved homicide plagues investigators six years later - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

Medford, Ore. — September 4, 2008 an Ashland man was killed inside him home that burned down. Now six years later Jackson County Sheriff’s investigators are still trying to connect the dots. “It’s an ongoing investigation. It’s a giant puzzle we’re trying. We’ve talked to hundreds if not dozens...

kobi5.com

I'm still thinking about how this would have gone down, whether they were both targeted, or both random, or just one random.

@Red Clover has posted about how remote Dave's cabin was, and how it wasn't an easy place to get to, especially if you don't know where it was. Troy's mom posted this on 5/17/12 on her profile page:

Troy was found murdered in his sleeping bag on the Bear Creek Greenway in Central Point on Sept 4, 2008.
He had desided to visit a long time friend in Medford area, was in town less then three weeks. He had been camped out near the Pilot truck stop whle waiting to get more work hauling funiture and head his way back home to the east coast.

So, since I don't know which place it was since she mentioned 2 places, I mapped them both out from Dave's place. But here's what I find interesting in relation to my post wondering if Troy was murdered to throw the case off track so it didn't make Dave's look targeted... (Pardon me for not knowing who died first, I tried searching this thread but didn't come up with it. If you know who was first please let me/us know. Thx!)

What if Dave was the only target, and this person decided to do a similar style murder of 'someone' nearish to where Dave was. Someone who was headed back North to where they lived (which is JMO). This map shows the route would be interstate 5. Meaning Northern Oregon or Washington, or even Canada. Sure, they could have doubled back, but I doubt it. It just feels like an 'on the way' thing to me.



Map source in case you want to dink with it.

 

[Gemmie]

Does anyone know what "the meeting at Lindsey Ranch" refers to?

I've seen references to the meeting but never any actual explanation of the details or people involved.

Is this a known fact in the case?

Is it a conspiracy theory?

Who was supposedly involved?

Was it on 9/3/2008?

What was the purpose or subject of the meeting (again, supposed)?

Is Lindsey Ranch the same property the vacation cabin was on or adjacent to?

How close was the ranch to Lily Glen (a public property) or to the infamous quarry?

ANY OPINIONS ARE IMOO

Where did you come up with Lindsey Ranch? I searched this thread for those words and only came up with your post that I'm quoting. Trying to gather more info on LR before I run down the wrong path. lol

 

[Gemmie]

Where did you come up with Lindsey Ranch? I searched this thread for those words and only came up with your post that I'm quoting. Trying to gather more info on LR before I run down the wrong path. lol

Also, Goog is trying to correct me (they aren't always right!) and thinks it's Lindsay Ranch, not Lindsey. Do you know for sure it's Lindey? I'd love to see where you got that name from. Thanks!

 

[Gemmie]

Does anyone know what "the meeting at Lindsey Ranch" refers to?

I've seen references to the meeting but never any actual explanation of the details or people involved.

Is this a known fact in the case?

Is it a conspiracy theory?

Who was supposedly involved?

Was it on 9/3/2008?

What was the purpose or subject of the meeting (again, supposed)?

Is Lindsey Ranch the same property the vacation cabin was on or adjacent to?

How close was the ranch to Lily Glen (a public property) or to the infamous quarry?

ANY OPINIONS ARE IMOO

Think I figured out where you got this. Wayback on BM's page? It's long and rambling, but there's mention of stuff going down with BM before Dave was murdered, and also mention twice of Lindsey Ranch. It's just way too much there for me (an outsider) to put 2 and 2 together. Sorry.

http://themurderofdavelewis.webs.com/bobmcneely.htm

 

[Red Clover]

Think I figured out where you got this. Wayback on BM page? It's long and rambling, but there's mention of stuff going down with BM before Dave was murdered, and also mention twice of Lindsey Ranch. It's just way too much there for me (an outsider) to put 2 and 2 together. Sorry.

http://themurderofdavelewis.webs.com/bobmcneely.htm

Yes, you found it. I don't know why there would have been a "meeting" at the ranch.

Was Dave looking to buy property or go in on some with BMc, R, or D? Was there a dispute?

Was it one of those things where a dude tells another to "meet me out back!" In this case the Lindsey Ranch? IDK. Even as a local I have no idea what this means.

Maybe it's nothing & just another red herring. Seems like there's a million of them everywhere you look in this case.

 

[Red Clover]

Where did you come up with Lindsey Ranch? I searched this thread for those words and only came up with your post that I'm quoting. Trying to gather more info on LR before I run down the wrong path. lol

Lily Glen, a county park, is very nearby if not adjacent to the ranch. The vacation cabin is as well. I'm wondering if the vacation cabin at 18196 was on or a part of the Lindsey Ranch. ???

Jackson County, Oregon - Official Government Website

www.jacksoncountyor.gov

EBM to add website

 

[Gemmie]

Yes, you found it. I don't know why there would have been a "meeting" at the ranch.

Was Dave looking to buy property or go in on some with BMc, R, or D? Was there a dispute?

Was it one of those things where a dude tells another to "meet me out back!" In this case the Lindsey Ranch? IDK. Even as a local I have no idea what this means.

Maybe it's nothing & just another red herring. Seems like there's a million of them everywhere you look in this case.

Can you do me a favor please, Red Clover? Can you edit my quoted post in your post so that BM's name is just his initials? I edited my own post, but you Quoted it before my edit so his name is there and shouldn't be. Sorry for the hassle.