OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #9

[curiousmind]

As an elementary school teacher I can assure you that many children, especially the ones that would never be suspected, would walk away from their class and wander on their own.

Do not underestimate kids due to their age. Exposure has a lot to do with maturity, and I find it to be true that kids with older siblings mature and develop much faster than those who do not. They imitate the behavior of the older siblings.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Well-trained tracking dogs can track through anything. Snow, mud, and rain do not stop them. In fact, I once read that it is easier for a tracking dog to track someone that is wet (ever smell a wet dog?). Since the Sheriff's office and the FBI are involved, one can be certain that well-trained, certified tracking dogs were used and not somebody's Chihuahua. (Yes, I know that tracking dogs are not infallible, but when you have many tracking dogs working on a case the probability for error is small.) It is probable that they now need to use cadaver dogs....so awful.

Last dog-related question/statement from me for right now, I'm getting pretty frustrated.

This is NOT correct. Weather conditions, wind conditions, ground conditions, traffic conditions, distractions, contaminations of scent and scent articles, timing of searches and delays in intial response affect specific scent-trained dogs in a tremendous number of different ways.

The best trained SAR dog in the world, with the best handler in the world, is subject to these variables and then some. There has been no clarification by LE as to what the search parameters were using dogs, or which specific dogs were used for what purposes in Kyron's case.

And dogs do not necessarily scent better to wet people! Scent conditions that are favorable are when the ground is damp, the wind is still, there has been no contamination of the trail, and the timing of the release of dogs on trail is immediate. None of those conditions were the case with Kyron.

 

[SuziQ]

There was a time when one would have been removed from the forum for accusing Laci's stepfather of having anything to do with her disappearance. In the case of Dr. Petit in CT whose entire family was murdered and he was the only survivor of a home invasion, many wanted to accuse him, we waited for more information before that discussion was allowed and thank God we did.

We are trying to be careful No more no less. The same respect we would have for you if, God forbid, you should ever find yourself in any smiliar circumstance. The case is relatively new and all we want to do is hang tight. We like to follow the lead of LE when we can.

You can discuss all the reported information. Just be careful about accusing anyone of anything at this point in time. That's it.

As more information is revealed then we will open up discussion.

I wish we could move on as it disrupts the thread every time.

As soon as some topics are mentioned even in the most logical truth seeking way, it evolves into people having to defend themselves even when they are within TOS. IMO, people may not agree on what to discuss, but they need to remember they are allowed as long as they are within the TOS. Move on? I'd love to!

 

[ElizaAvalon]

Why is it a "witch hunt" when people are asking very logical questions? Is there something going on? Have we, the public, been asked not to voice our thoughts on this, steering clear of the most obvious ( to some of us) suspect in this case?

Does anyone else find it odd that the officer giving the family statement said that there is an officer basically living with the family, going home only to sleep?

Just my thoughts. I came over here from the HaLeigh thread and find that it is like being in a different place, altogether, where things are not allowed to be said.

my questions, concerns, and opinions

I can speak for myself and say that I don't feel there is enough factual information from LE about this case being reported to the public to start pointing fingers at actual people (i.e. witch hunt) on a public forum.

Do I find it odd that there is an officer living with the family and only going home to sleep? If this case goes the way I think it's going to go, this is a very smart move by LE.

In the Haleigh case, the players were in the media and we were able to analyze and discuss body language and words that were spoken, among other things.

Here, we have no media contact, not even a first person statement from anyone except LE.

How can we discuss that?

All we can say at this point is, "I think this is what happened..." and without more factual information from LE, speculating about individual people is, really, a witch hunt.

 

[A_Closer_Look]

I would think plain-clothed strangers standing around in classrooms watching would be quite disrupting. It would be criminally negligent in my opinion to allow children back into the school if they believed the person responsible for Kyron's disappearance was there.

I completely agree. There's no way, imo, that LE and/or FBI would ever allow children back into this school building if they had even the slightest doubt that the perp might be working there, or have any other reason to be there.

 

[curiousmind]

I also wanted to state that registered sex offenders are allowed access to schools in many cases. I know that one of the parents at the school I teach at is a registered sex offender-child molester and we are not legally allowed to prohibit the father from the school. We have checked with our school lawyer.

As long as the parent is there for a school related reason directly involving his child he can be there. He can't be left to supervise children. He can come to school for a class play, awards day, eat lunch, parent conference, etc...

This disturbs me as a teacher greatly. What happens when this person is walking to and from class? There are always kids in the halls. It would be very easy in my school, and every single school I ever taught at to do something to a child.

 

[BeanE]

My recollection is that Gates did not use the exact words "not at risk." He said that Kyron's case was an "isolated incident," and told parents to use the same precautions with their children that they would normally use. He did not advise extra caution. What he said amounted, in my opinion and in many other people's opinion, to the same thing as saying that the other children are "not at risk" from whatever incident has resulted in Kyron being missing.
The point is, though, that when posters say that LE has said other children are not at risk, they are getting that directly from respected news sources, not blogs, not comment sections, not iffy pseudo-news sites.
I would be curious to know what you interpret Gates' remarks about "isolated incident" and for parents to take the same precautions they have been taking to mean, if they don't mean that other children are not at risk from whatever has caused Kyron to disappear.

It doesn't matter to me what any reporter - or anyone else - thinks Gates meant by isolated incident.

The only thing about this that matters to me is whether Gates said no other children are at risk.

I'm not asking anyone else to view this as I do. I just want to know if Gates himself said that other children are not at risk.

I'm an obsessive stickler for facts. I make no apologies for it. It's the result of the way my brain is wired, combined with a long career dealing with the critical seeking of facts. It's ingrained in me. I realize it's a pain in the butt to others. Believe me. My DH never lets me forget it.

 

[ElizaAvalon]

BBM
I haven't heard or read that. Do you happen to have the link to that article please? Thanks.

I saw an officer say this with his own words in a video of a presser from a few days ago.

 

[lillygator]

why would they need an officer present with them at all times? are they in danger?

 

[AlexisFresca]

I would think plain-clothed strangers standing around in classrooms watching would be quite disrupting. It would be criminally negligent in my opinion to allow children back into the school if they believed the person responsible for Kyron's disappearance was there.

I didn't mean literally standing guard being obvious, I meant more in a manner of 'blending in' into regular school activities, functions and routines of a typical school day. It could even be a female plain clothes brought in as a sub or as office support, lunchroom helper, etc. Some position that would give them a 'reason' for being there, other than what they are really there for.

I'm just looking at it from the angle of, you have this suspect - possibly a staff member. You can't just remove them from the school without cause or proof to back up your allegations; you'd need confirmation. Likewise, you also can't close the school down either because you don't want the children around this perp. However, if they say its an 'isolated incident' and the perp does work at the school, for reasons unknown they have some info to lead them to believe this person won't target other students.

Does that make sense?

 

[trigger]

Another thing with comments on news sites (I haven't finished catching up yet, so if someone already posted this I apologize. I wanted to post it for anyone still searching for the comment.)

You have the article where the comment is left. You can say, it is in the 20+ replies to oregcan's comment.

http://www.katu.com/news/96088894.html#idc-cover

Personally though... I find this easier. Linking the article it's left on, then this link here.

http://intensedebate.com/people/fromahome

Most of these news sites allow you to essentially link directly to the comment you are referring to. If you click on the name of the person leaving the comment, it brings up the comments they have made. The interesting comments have all been left by people with very few comments.

I have a comment saved ......Very interesting...Its the very first one on salemnews

 

[mommya]

Someone posted a link the other day to the story of a kindergartener who left school, walked home, and back again - so it does happen. Kids just get an idea and act on it sometimes.

Maybe we are not hearing everything about Kyron's nature?

Maybe the teacher told the sub to "calm down - he's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink" because Kyron tended to "wander" from the group often? Sort of a roll your eyes thing - like "It's just Kyron, he's always late."

Still doesn't explain her marking him absent tho.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I'm not ready to blame the teacher just yet.What does she have to say?I'm wondering why If it's true from the rumor she thought he had an apointment or was with the step mom.I want to know the real story there.

 

[Forensic fan]

Another (dumb) question, did Kyron's display include a live frog, I couldn't tell. If so, maybe he went in the woods to find bugs to feed it and got lost or fell over a cliff.

 

[R4ORT]

Hello there. First time posting on a Kyron thread, but I have been on WS from the start of the case.

Here is my theory if it was not abduction.

He idolizes big brother. This has been stated several times, and when you look at the pics that have been posted it looks to be true. Big brother is going camping with the Boy Scouts.

This would be something that he would have been excited about and talking about a lot leading up to it. Kyron, being a little kid, would think this is very cool. How cool to go camping in the woods?

I can see Kyron expressing that he wanted to go too. Big brother or parents would then say something along the lines of "this is for big kids, and when you are bigger you can go camping."

I can see Kyron "going camping" in the woods on his own. You don't think I am big enough to go camping, well let me show you kind of thing.

ITA - In so much that I posted a similar (albeit not as well written) post a few threads ago. To start with I truly hoped that this was the case as I cannot bear the thought of this precious child coming to harm via a third party, however, as time goes on, even with the possible scenario above, 7 days is a long time for a child to be alone in the woods. :twocents:

 

[STEADFAST]

It doesn't matter to me what any reporter - or anyone else - thinks Gates meant by isolated incident.

The only thing about this that matters to me is whether Gates said no other children are at risk.

I'm not asking anyone else to view this as I do. I just want to know if Gates himself said that other children are not at risk.

I'm an obsessive stickler for facts. I make no apologies for it. It's the result of the way my brain is wired, combined with a long career dealing with the critical seeking of facts. It's ingrained in me. I realize it's a pain in the butt to others. Believe me. My DH never lets me forget it.

I'm am just as obsessive a stickler for facts as you are, BeanE (and just as compassionate, too.)

Gates did not use the words, "not at risk" in the same sentence as the words "isolated incident," as I stated in my post. In my opinion, what he said meant the same thing as "not at risk." You apparently don't agree that he meant that.

Remember back, thousands of threads ago, when you posted that Gates had said somebody had seen Kyron after the stepmom left, and I went back and listened to the press conference and transcribed it to demonstrate that he hadn't said that? I just can't do that again. I have to hold the computer up to my ear and listen to 3 or 4 words at a time and put the computer down and type them and then rewind and check them and then do it all over again repeatedly. I'm just not up for it. If it's that important for someone to go back and listen to all the press conferences to see if Gates has ever used the phrase "not at risk," I suggest that person do it.

 

[mamaeb]

Another (dumb) question, did Kyron's display include a live frog, I couldn't tell. If so, maybe he went in the woods to find bugs to feed it and got lost or fell over a cliff.

no.. well not from the pictures I saw. It all looked fake

 

[suzet]

Imo, this act was so very carefully orchestrated to the tiniest detail, time wise and other. I feel the person responsible picked the perfect time, the perfect method, to carry out their plan. We do not know whether or not they were seen. Hopefully, they were and this info has not been released.

If this was an orchestrated abduction, the perp could not have known that the school would fail to report Kyron's absense to the SM, correct? I just keep thinking about that. If someone did this, they probably thought they had a very limited amount of time before people would start looking for Kyron.

But the school DID report Kyron's absense. It was reported most likely the way it is always reported... simply marking a child absent.

According to my theory, the perp knew exactly how much time they had and carried out their plan in the shortest amount of time possible. In my theory, the second location that the little boy was taken to, was preplanned and prepared.

I believe the main reason our views on the event are conflicting is because we obviously have two totally different theories on what may have happened. Can't say any more.

 

[eyes4crime]

Last dog-related question/statement from me for right now, I'm getting pretty frustrated.

This is NOT correct. Weather conditions, wind conditions, ground conditions, traffic conditions, distractions, contaminations of scent and scent articles, timing of searches and delays in intial response affect specific scent-trained dogs in a tremendous number of different ways.

The best trained SAR dog in the world, with the best handler in the world, is subject to these variables and then some. There has been no clarification by LE as to what the search parameters were using dogs, or which specific dogs were used for what purposes in Kyron's case.

And dogs do not necessarily scent better to wet people! Scent conditions that are favorable are when the ground is damp, the wind is still, there has been no contamination of the trail, and the timing of the release of dogs on trail is immediate. None of those conditions were the case with Kyron.

JTSYS - thanks for your expertise. I'm guessing fertilizers, weed killers, insecticides, etc would also destroy most scents, and I'm wondering what they might do to the dog's physical nose...are they damaging?

 

[BeanE]

I'm not ready to blame the teacher just yet.What does she have to say?I'm wondering why If it's true from the rumor she thought he had an apointment or was with the step mom.I want to know the real story there.

I really hope at some point we get to hear the story of what happened from the perspective of both the teacher and the substitute.

I hold all adults - including myself - responsible for the children around them. In this situation, the teacher and substitute appear to be the ones responsible for Kyron at the time of his disappearance.

I'm trying to think of the point at which responsibility leaves the hands of the parent and goes to the school. I'm thinking of the many parents who pull up to a designated point at a school each morning, the child opens the door, on school grounds, and their feet hit that school ground.

That is the point where, generally, I feel the school takes responsibility, by explicit or implicit agreement - whether that's legal or moral responsibility.

Kyron's stepmother left him further along that point - inside the school, walking in the hallway to his classroom. When she waved good-bye and turned away to leave, Kyron, to me, was in the responsibility of the school.

When it came into the teacher and substitute's awareness that Kyron was not where he was supposed to be, that, to me, is the point at which their responsibility for Kyron came into play. Right now, we know something went haywire with that responsibility, but we don't know exactly what.

Clearly, to me, when a child is left at school, it is the responsibility of someone, or some persons, there to ensure the safety of that child. It's also clear, to me, that something broke there - because Kyron is missing.

:cow: