Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #64 ~ the appeal~

[44ALLAN]

...i can accept and respect all of that except it wasn't a crime of passion....he shot into the WC in a moment of rage because she had ran in there and wouldn't come out......he shot at the door knowing her position, he did try to avoid her but she had slightly turned into the line of fire....this was done in a moment of rage but that doesn't take anything away from it being reckless and that's why i would like to see a heavy sentence......it certainly wasn't a crime of passion, far from it........the difference between my opinion and the majority on here is that i don't think he shot at her with the intention to kill...
....add to that he has lied in court, i think that should be an additional sentence on top .......all my opinion of course...

you jest surely lol

 

[Trotterly]

FYI
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...o-home-detention/story-fnh81gzi-1227580548021

The unanswered questions about the release of Oscar Pistorius from jail to home detention
OCTOBER 23, 2015

According to legal expert Dr Llewellyn Curlewis, a criminal barrister and former president of the South African Law Society, there is no case of “rock star” treatment for the one-time national sporting hero. In fact, his sentence is being served to the letter of the law...

... Dr Curlewis believes the appeal will fail.“The appeal judges have to rule that the decision was palpably wrong,” he said. “This is a very politically sensitive case and the appeal judges come from the same background as Judge Masipa. There is no new evidence produced. It is all done by going through the evidence presented in the trial. They will have already done their reading. The decision will only take a few hours, and I think they will give her the benefit of the doubt...

He may have been a bit wide of the mark with some of his commentary on the trial for Sky but he has hit the nail on the head with this!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ee

IMO it woukd never occur to him that he would not get way with it. He always got away with things and IMO immediately put his "story" into motion when he realized what he had really done.

He hadn't even left his plot on the 14.2. and was already sure to "always win" (talk with Botha?). His plan was ready for a long time since Reeva hours before didn't present to him as expected (from a badly brought up man).

 

[Colin de France]

you jest surely lol

....no not at all, it's not a joking matter......i think it's better to keep an open mind instead of trying to make the crime fit the theory.......i think if he had wanted to murder her he would of used the gun when he hit her on the back with it and as for the cricket bat to get into the WC the first time, why did he bother....this isn't murder but reckless killing, make of that what you will ........!

 

[aftermath]

.....so are you saying that the bullet hit the vest which left a bruise with the mark of the vest on her back ?

Sorry - just realised I didn't reply to you.

I really don't know. I think it could have been a bullet-related impact that made the pattern bruise. Maybe a bit of the ricochet one from the wall? Or possibly the edge /corner of the magazine rack against the bony bit of her back as she fell back heavily onto the floor?

 

[Colin de France]

Sorry - just realised I didn't reply to you.

I really don't know. I think it could have been a bullet-related impact that made the pattern bruise. Maybe a bit of the ricochet one from the wall? Or possibly the edge /corner of the magazine rack against the bony bit of her back as she fell back heavily onto the floor?

...that's ok....no i think the butt of the gun has it......this is a case of domestic violence at the beginning which spiralled out of control.... at no point did he intend to kill her......

 

[Interested Bystander]

Mr Fossil, next time you are on the forum, would you please say whether you wish members to comment on your blog or on here. Until you say, I will post here.

I have been thinking long and hard about the abrasions and how they may have been caused. Whilst the gun is still a possibility, I am strugging with it being thrown or with a forceful downward blow. The main reason being that I have been viewing injuries caused by ricochet bullets and whilst I cannot find an exact replica photo, the shape of many of the injuries bear a similar pattern (excluding those which skim the flesh from the side, ie across the flesh rather than into the flesh from behind).

That took me back to the photos in your blog. One in particular is the diamond shaped photo of the bruising. Are you able to blow it up any more? The reason being is that I think I can see "dots" in the striations which might indicate the tiny holes in the vest that RS was wearing. We know that the ribbing is on both sides of the vest. Do you know the exact measurements of the ribbing? To create a bruise like that would take a great deal of force, whether it be from gun handle or ricochet bullet. This, of course, may not exclude the gun being the cause but it probably excludes the downward force I suggested as I think the tiny holes would have been obliterated by the downward force. To create that pattern the force would have to be from the back or the holes IMO would be distorted by stretching. It may still be appropriate for a thrown gun.

Another point is that there are tiny haemorrhages around the two main bruises which I understand, from a description given in the trial, were believed to be caused by tiny fragments from the bullet. If that were to be so, the bruising is more likely to have been caused by the ricochet bullet as they seem to be in a regular scatter pattern. Of course, they could also be due to splinters from ceramic tiling from the point of impact of the bullet. If you feel that the tiny bleeds were not from fragments could you venture another reason for them?

Earlier, I referred to further bruising on a photo I had seen on the internet but now I think this may have been of the bruise on and around the buttocks that may be consistent with RS falling on the magazine rack.

 

[aftermath]

...that's ok....no i think the butt of the gun has it......this is a case of domestic violence at the beginning which spiralled out of control.... at no point did he intend to kill her......

You could be right but I am not convinced.

I find it really hard to believe that so many people who deal with identifying wounds and their causes day -to-day (- Saayman, Botha, Mangena, Wolmarans and Dixon) -appear to have all failed to pick up a link between the patterned bruise and the cause being the matching pattern of something as hard and specific as the gun. I also can't quite visualise how that part of the gun would be held and moved with force, to create such small marks.

I think it far more likely that she knocked her back on the edge of the magazine rack through her vest, or that a ricochet piece of bullet hit her through her vest. If the photo of the vest could be scaled to the same as that of the marks themselves, that would be interesting, as I think the pattern in the bruise looks a lot like the vest fabric.

 

[Colin de France]

You could be right but I am not convinced.

I find it really hard to believe that so many people who deal with identifying wounds and their causes day -to-day (- Saayman, Botha, Mangena, Wolmarans and Dixon) -appear to have all failed to pick up a link between the patterned bruise and the cause being the matching pattern of something as hard and specific as the gun. I also can't quite visualise how that part of the gun would be held and moved with force, to create such small marks.

I think it far more likely that she knocked her back on the edge of the magazine rack through her vest, or that a ricochet piece of bullet hit her through her vest. If the photo of the vest could be scaled to the same as that of the marks themselves, that would be interesting, as I think the pattern in the bruise looks a lot like the vest fabric.

...well i'm convinced by the gun going by Mr Fossil and JJ's blog......even so to have been hit by the gun on the back and to have left it's trace her vest must of been off....there are still a lot of things to explain yet including the cricket bat and when it was in contact with the blood....with the cricket bat and the line (due to breaking the panel) running through the blood, it wasn't mentioned if blood was found inside the line and that the line would have damaged the wood protective used on the bat thus allowing blood to have soaked and dried differently to the rest......meaning that the bat could have been in contact with the blood after her having been shot...

 

[Mr Fossil]

Mr Fossil, next time you are on the forum, would you please say whether you wish members to comment on your blog or on here. Until you say, I will post here.

I have been thinking long and hard about the abrasions and how they may have been caused. Whilst the gun is still a possibility, I am strugging with it being thrown or with a forceful downward blow. The main reason being that I have been viewing injuries caused by ricochet bullets and whilst I cannot find an exact replica photo, the shape of many of the injuries bear a similar pattern (excluding those which skim the flesh from the side, ie across the flesh rather than into the flesh from behind).

That took me back to the photos in your blog. One in particular is the diamond shaped photo of the bruising. Are you able to blow it up any more? The reason being is that I think I can see "dots" in the striations which might indicate the tiny holes in the vest that RS was wearing. We know that the ribbing is on both sides of the vest. Do you know the exact measurements of the ribbing? To create a bruise like that would take a great deal of force, whether it be from gun handle or ricochet bullet. This, of course, may not exclude the gun being the cause but it probably excludes the downward force I suggested as I think the tiny holes would have been obliterated by the downward force. To create that pattern the force would have to be from the back or the holes IMO would be distorted by stretching. It may still be appropriate for a thrown gun.

Another point is that there are tiny haemorrhages around the two main bruises which I understand, from a description given in the trial, were believed to be caused by tiny fragments from the bullet. If that were to be so, the bruising is more likely to have been caused by the ricochet bullet as they seem to be in a regular scatter pattern. Of course, they could also be due to splinters from ceramic tiling from the point of impact of the bullet. If you feel that the tiny bleeds were not from fragments could you venture another reason for them?

Earlier, I referred to further bruising on a photo I had seen on the internet but now I think this may have been of the bruise on and around the buttocks that may be consistent with RS falling on the magazine rack.

Thank for your post IB. I'm more than happy to reply here so that others on here can share in the dialogue.

Are you able to provide links to any of your research regarding bullet ricochet injuries?

I have some photos of weave impressions on skin from various forensics books. I also did quite a bit of research into bullet core K and the vest, including accurate measurements of the ribbing and the nature of rib stitch versus the striations, and am looking at pulling it together and adding it to the abrasions article.

Assuming that it is possible for the bullet core to hit with enough force and/or heat to create the bruises and the skins tears (without damaging the vest fabric) my main problem with it is I cannot conceive of a position that Reeva could be in such that the core could create the two abrasions (which defines direction, either up or down but the skins scrapes suggest down IMO - any views anyone?) and then ultimately land up in the toilet bowl along with a piece of tile from mark F which either took a more direct route or followed the same 'impossible' (Wolmarans) path if Reeva is seated on the magazine rack. I think this may be why Dixon suggested the bullet core had to travel upwards (another impossibility IMO) to get to the toilet bowl but her back would still be facing the rear toilet wall.

If she is not seated on the magazine rack she would have to have her back facing the toilet to some degree, however slight, with the abrasions above the height of toilet, for the core to glance off her back and into the bowl. And the same bullet would have to miss her first. I'll keep looking at this because one of the areas we're working on following on from the bullet trajectory work (still to be posted) is Reeva's possible/probable positions when she is hit, along with the bullet sequence possibilities. As an aside: we're not doing this work to prove these points, simply to account for other evidence which might form another article later: the blood spatter on the toilet floor in the far right hand corner (as seen from the door) versus Oscar's account of how he found Reeva, held her and moved her out of the toilet which doesn't tally with Van der Nest's re-enactment for instance.

I find it telling that Mangena associated the abrasions with bullet fragments B4 and completely ignored K in his report and testimony other than to acknowledge K to Roux. He also completely ignored the striations which simply could not have been produced by any of the B4 fragments IMO as they're all jagged. Not one State witness testified to K hitting Reeva on the back as far as I can find: it came directly from Nel. Not one State witness therefore testified to the trajectory of K to support the path from B to E (missing Reeva) to F to T11/T12 (or vice versa) to the toilet bowl. Again, it came from Nel.

I think the diamond shaped photo of the larger abrasion is the biggest I have but I'll check and get back to you if I find something better. I also need to check if I altered its size when I posted it. I am able to blow it up the size of my screen quite successfully. However I do know what you mean by the 'dots' and I have compared the striations with the weave and I'll demonstrate this in what I add to the article. It's a great shame that Nel didn't show any forensic evidence to support his version of the vest being the cause. Why not, I wonder.

Can you point me to the reference in the trial to the tiny haemorrhages around the abrasions please. Was it Dixon? Again, I'll add something to the abrasions article about these because I think it's a fair point to consider them in conjunction with the abrasions. Were they caused at the same time? If so how many fragments hit her, caused bleeding but didn't tear the vest fabric or were they something else? There were 4 B4 fragements but 5 potential haemorrhages that I see in the photo we have. Clearly, if they were at the same time, it can't have been the gun handle. I have no picture of the wider area of Reeva's back to see how much further they extend but they don't appear in the post-mortem photo (although the quality is poor) nor are they on Saayman's diagram.

The bruising on Reeva's buttock was referred to by Nel when cross-examining Dixon. Saayman's report states that he dissected the wound and found that it was the result of an internal haematoma caused by the shattering of her hip and pelvis by the bullet fragments. He could be wrong, Dixon could be right. I know which way I'd bet!

 

[Mr Fossil]

You could be right but I am not convinced.

I find it really hard to believe that so many people who deal with identifying wounds and their causes day -to-day (- Saayman, Botha, Mangena, Wolmarans and Dixon) -appear to have all failed to pick up a link between the patterned bruise and the cause being the matching pattern of something as hard and specific as the gun. I also can't quite visualise how that part of the gun would be held and moved with force, to create such small marks.

I think it far more likely that she knocked her back on the edge of the magazine rack through her vest, or that a ricochet piece of bullet hit her through her vest. If the photo of the vest could be scaled to the same as that of the marks themselves, that would be interesting, as I think the pattern in the bruise looks a lot like the vest fabric.

BIB Me too! Saayman doesn't mention the striations in anything I've seen but he does refer to the cause of the abrasions being blunt force like when you hit the edge of a chair. Mangena doesn't mention the striations. In fact, no state witness testifies about them AFAIK. The other interesting aspect is that everyone (naturally?) only considers the scope of their cause to be inside the toilet. Wolmarans explicitly states that he cannot account for the striations and they would require a hard edge to create them (obviously patterned appropriately).

 

[cottonweaver]

BIB Me too! Saayman doesn't mention the striations in anything I've seen but he does refer to the cause of the abrasions being blunt force like when you hit the edge of a chair. Mangena doesn't mention the striations. In fact, no state witness testifies about them AFAIK. The other interesting aspect is that everyone (naturally?) only considers the scope of their cause to be inside the toilet. Wolmarans explicitly states that he cannot account for the striations and they would require a hard edge to create them (obviously patterned appropriately).

BIB - re. surprise that none of the experts considered the gun- Nothing surprises me any more

Another hint at the poverty of forensic processes is here:

"“Roux then asks if there would have been anything in toxicology that could have assisted Botha and he states no. It routinely takes 1-2 years to get toxicology reports back therefore it would not have come back in time for trial.*“

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/oscar-trial-day-16-dr-botha-oscar/

I think you have provided the best answer yourself Fossil, when you say - "The other interesting aspect is that everyone (naturally?) only considers the scope of their cause to be inside the toilet."

- This reminds me of the forensics on the door mark - not investigating them all because the investigator wasn't "asked to"
- reminds me of the bullet casing found in the toilet, not found initially by SAPS scene personnel
and on and on........

That "surprise", in itself, does not , for me, undermine the credibility of your research into these striaitions.

 

[cottonweaver]

Fossil/JJ can you confirm the following?

These striations are a specific type of injury not the same as impressions that could be left by the vest ?(It says it somewhere in your document, but I may have got it wrong.)
As per Interested Bystanders point, I would be very interested to know the degree of force needed to produce these marks and can you get an opinion? There must be a retired forensics specialist with a blog/website, who might have an interest.

For what it's worth - ie. me speculating also IMO the regularity of the tram line dimensions are what is so compelling for me. ( double line, regular gap, double line, regular gap.)

Even if say that was a machine embroidered vest where rigid lines are produced to create rigid lines- as opposed to a machine knitted one,-I can't visualise how the lines left by it could be so regular in their repeat once they are pressed at great force against the curved backbones or concave into dent impressions.
https://cc11313.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/image016.jpg
( This type of fabric is designed to stretch and follow curved profiles, I have quite a few of these vests! ) Please correct me if I am talking nonsense and the striations gaps are not regular in their widths apart.



Despite me saying previously - have you considered the toe end of the bat as the source - for the life of me I can't imagine that one could find any wood grain that is so regular in the repeat pattern of double line, regular gap, double line.
I admit I haven't researched wood grains per se but am assuming they are governed by variables of growth and climate changes so I can't imagine they could appear as per your photo.
( Additionally also, as a complete non-expert, for me the only parts of the mag rack to have vertical end grain would be the upright pieces at either end, not the horizontals, it's just the way a carpenter uses wood..... but that's by the by.)

https://cc11313.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/abrasion-at-t11-showing-striations-post-mortem2.jpg

I think the fact that the handle of the gun is so curved makes this all very plausible and that machine tooling extends right down to the handlle's base
making the apex of that curve liable to make contact.
https://cc11313.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/image026.jpg

Anyway I sincerely hope that your research get's out there, it deserves to be further examined and I see that another book will be published in December after the SCA.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Fossil/JJ can you confirm the following?

These striations are a specific type of injury not the same as impressions that could be left by the vest ?(It says it somewhere in your document, but I may have got it wrong.)
As per Interested Bystanders point, I would be very interested to know the degree of force needed to produce these marks and can you get an opinion? There must be a retired forensics specialist with a blog/website, who might have an interest.

For what it's worth - ie. me speculating also IMO the regularity of the tram line dimensions are what is so compelling for me. ( double line, regular gap, double line, regular gap.)

Even if say that was a machine embroidered vest where rigid lines are produced to create rigid lines- as opposed to a machine knitted one,-I can't visualise how the lines left by it could be so regular in their repeat once they are pressed at great force against the curved backbones or concave into dent impressions.
https://cc11313.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/image016.jpg
( This type of fabric is designed to stretch and follow curved profiles, I have quite a few of these vests! ) Please correct me if I am talking nonsense and the striations gaps are not regular in their widths apart.



Despite me saying previously - have you considered the toe end of the bat as the source - for the life of me I can't imagine that one could find any wood grain that is so regular in the repeat pattern of double line, regular gap, double line.
I admit I haven't researched wood grains per se but am assuming they are governed by variables of growth and climate changes so I can't imagine they could appear as per your photo.
( Additionally also, as a complete non-expert, for me the only parts of the mag rack to have vertical end grain would be the upright pieces at either end, not the horizontals, it's just the way a carpenter uses wood..... but that's by the by.)

https://cc11313.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/abrasion-at-t11-showing-striations-post-mortem2.jpg

I think the fact that the handle of the gun is so curved makes this all very plausible and that machine tooling extends right down to the handlle's base
making the apex of that curve liable to make contact.
https://cc11313.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/image026.jpg

Anyway I sincerely hope that your research get's out there, it deserves to be further examined and I see that another book will be published in December after the SCA.

Thank you.

It's Nel who says 'these are striations not impressions'. 'Striations' are defined as 'a series of ridges, furrows or linear marks' so pedantically an impression and a striation can be synonymous. I quoted it for completeness in case it gave someone an angle on where he was coming from.

I'll be adding our work on the vest after I've completed the bullet trajectories (the work is mainly done, it's all about presentation). I need to gather everything together first before giving a proper answer, suffice to say that although the measurements are broadly in line IIRC the issue is that the ridge and furrow widths don't tally. I'll explain fully when I update abrasions.

I'd love a forensics expert to comment on anything we've put up. Perhaps someone on here knows someone who can be asked to take a look.

The toe of the bat: for the direction of the wood grain visible in the photos of the bat to align with the striations would require that the bat would have to be wielded flat rather than what I would consider the natural way of holding it for a chopping motion. However, I can't see any wood grain in the photos we have access to at the toe end which would fit the desired spacing and prominence to create any striations.

I agree that the characteristics of the gun handle match well. The area of concern perhaps should be the cause of the smaller wounds (if that is what they are) near the abrasions that we see in the photo taken by Van Staden on 14 Feb 2013 as these may contradict the hypothesis.

 

[Colin de France]

Even if say that was a machine embroidered vest where rigid lines are produced to create rigid lines- as opposed to a machine knitted one,-I can't visualise how the lines left by it could be so regular in their repeat once they are pressed at great force against the curved backbones or concave into dent impressions.

.....i agree with this..... surely the lines of the vest would have been crushed and spread out and thus not so defined.... the vest is also made of a soft material like the skin i find it hard to conceive that an imprint so perfect could of been made under the circumstances of falling onto the magazine rack........for me it would require a hard surface hitting a soft surface and not a hard surface hitting a soft surface which in it's turn hits another soft surface, with the falling on the rack the procedure is the reverse, but still applies......

 

[Interested Bystander]

.....i agree with this..... surely the lines of the vest would have been crushed and spread out and thus not so defined.... the vest is also made of a soft material like the skin i find it hard to conceive that an imprint so perfect could of been made under the circumstances of falling onto the magazine rack........for me it would require a hard surface hitting a soft surface and not a hard surface hitting a soft surface which in it's turn hits another soft surface, with the falling on the rack the procedure is the reverse, but still applies......

Whilst trying to find the info I referred to in my Mr Fossil post, I came across an interesting sentence in a Forensic Journal that the imprint of the garment can take place after the injury, ie if she were lain on her back for any length of time, the contusion could take up the mark of a garment and be nothing at all to do with how the contusion was created.

How I wish I had made a reference of what I read. I spent a week sifting through information on ricochets, gun slap and abrasion collar wounds. I am trying to find as much information as I can and will probably upload it tomorrow. Today is difficult as it is a family day.

 

[cottonweaver]

More intermission pre -Appeal tidbits
Reeva words inspire a new Rod Stewart song !!
http://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-sun-times/20151024/281870117294092/TextView

25 Oct Sunday times.
senior CS official says “ we are also preparing for a potential return tbased on the outcome of the court proceesdings in November”
nothing much more in this article though except “P's legal team reckon they need about five hours to convince a full bench at the court” ( No source given. Imo how could this journalist know this?This is possibly a re-hash.) And “A.Burgess says it's unlikely the family will atttend Appeal.”
http://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/sunday-times/20151025/281706908537745/TextView

PS The photo linked earlier definitely shows OP with Brett Sharman. Oscar just looks thinner in face, as would be expected , it is the first photo in this twitter account
More intermission pre -Appeal tidbits
Reeva words inspire a new Rod Stewart song !!
http://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-sun-times/20151024/281870117294092/TextView

25 Oct Sunday times.
senior CS official says “ we are also preparing for a potential return tbased on the outcome of the court proceesdings in November”
nothing much more in this article though except “P's legal team reckon they need about five hours to convince a full bench at the court” ( No source given. Imo how could this journalist know this?This is possibly a re-hash.) And “A.Burgess says it's unlikely the family will atttend Appeal.”
http://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/sunday-times/20151025/281706908537745/TextView

[modsnip]

 

[Coldpizza]

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[cottonweaver]

FYI
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...o-home-detention/story-fnh81gzi-1227580548021

The unanswered questions about the release of Oscar Pistorius from jail to home detention
OCTOBER 23, 2015

According to legal expert Dr Llewellyn Curlewis, a criminal barrister and former president of the South African Law Society, there is no case of “rock star” treatment for the one-time national sporting hero. In fact, his sentence is being served to the letter of the law...

... Dr Curlewis believes the appeal will fail.“The appeal judges have to rule that the decision was palpably wrong,” he said. “This is a very politically sensitive case and the appeal judges come from the same background as Judge Masipa. There is no new evidence produced. It is all done by going through the evidence presented in the trial. They will have already done their reading. The decision will only take a few hours, and I think they will give her the benefit of the doubt...

Bear in mind that Curlweis, over time has made a lot of wrong calls on this case too. There are quite a few videos, radio interviews from him as he has often been called on to give his legal opinion. ( Hence the DJ's interview that I referenced with the Judge Greenland link)

Here;s Curlewis commentating previously , saying why there was not going to be an appeal by State,

““The National Director of Public Prosecutions, whose department is running the case against Pistorius, is a political appointee of the government,” he said. “Over the last few years there have been some issues with that role. Some national directors have resigned.
“The current national director has only been in office a few months and I am not sure that he would approve of lodging an appeal. It would not be in the interests of two government departments to be at loggerheads.”
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...pa-has-tough-job/story-fnh81gzi-1227089252163

Another later example, here he is on Appeal : if they find CH is correct that is “the end of the matter, unless for some reason some kind of constitutional issue comes into play in which case we may be in for another round in the constitutions court” Baffling.
But he does make perfectly clear that SCA have to decide on on interpretation on question of DE – major issue needs to be settled, for later precedent.
[video=youtube;RS7E1uUEKIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS7E1uUEKIg[/video]

 

[Colin de France]

...not a great picture but here it is ...the magazine rack complete with rounded off edges and not a ridge in sight........