Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #70 *Appeal Verdict*

[mrjitty]

On the subject of the assessors & testimony - I spoke to a German Judge about this as I was interested in what training if any, the Judges/Assessors receive in assessing witnesses.

As I suspected, the answer appears to be none. The Judge relies on their experience.

This concerned me for two reasons.

First, unlike many High Court Judges I know, Masipa did not have a 25+ year career as Barrister in the white hot arena of trials. She does not have experience in examining witnesses, she was not a former crown prosecutor, nor did she make silk and lead cases at the highest level. Indeed by international standards she is quite poorly qualified for a case of this nature, and especially her expertise is significantly inferior to both counsel. How you end up with a judge on the bench of the High Court conducting huge criminal trials with zero relevant experience is beyond me.

Secondly the two assessors may over rule the Judge on factual questions. The view of the Judge I spoke to is that assessors may be quite naive in regard to testimony - especially as they have no breadth of experience in the handling of court evidence. Or maybe its even their first case.

So is it any wonder such a poorly qualified team delivered:

1. poor trial management
2. bizarre findings
3. astonishingly poor technical quality of judgment

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

Secondly the two assessors may over rule the Judge on factual questions. The view of the Judge I spoke to is that assessors may be quite naive in regard to testimony - especially as they have no breadth of experience in the handling of court evidence. Or maybe its even their first case.

So is it any wonder such a poorly qualified team delivered:

1. poor trial management
2. bizarre findings
3. astonishingly poor technical quality of judgment

Here’s some background on the assessors.

“Mannie Witz, an advocate with the Bridge Group at the Johannesburg Bar, says Mazibuko is "fresh out of university" and comes from an academic background. Other than that, little is known about him.

Henzen-du Toit, on the other hand, is well known as an advocate who has defended murders and rapes, says Witz. She joined the Pretoria Bar in 1998, before leaving for the Rebel Bar in North West in 2003. She became a member of the National Forum of Advocates in 2005 and also presided over trials as an assessor during this period. In 2006, she returned to Pretoria and joined the Legal Aid Board. In 2010, she became a unit manager in the South Gauteng High Court in Johannesburg.

A profile of Henzen-du Toit published by Beeld newspaper earlier this month pointed out that she was an expert in criminal justice. She has an Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation”.

Although not a judge, Henzen du Toit would appear to be better qualified than Masipa.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB - And will you still say the same thing when the ConCourt finally fixes this mess once and for all and returns the verdict back to CH or will there be cries of foul and possible bribery accusations such as during the High Court verdict where the 2 accessors overpowered Masipa, wrote the verdict for her and forced her to read it against her will?

BIB red - "when"? Wishful thinking since the likelihood of that happening is nil. There's nothing for the Con Court to fix. The murderer will eventually get a deservedly longer sentence. He's history and no amount of declaring as fact that the CC will 'fix' the mess is going to change that. Not gonna happen.

 

[Belgarion]

RSBM


Here’s some background on the assessors.

“Mannie Witz, an advocate with the Bridge Group at the Johannesburg Bar, says Mazibuko is "fresh out of university" and comes from an academic background. Other than that, little is known about him.

Henzen-du Toit, on the other hand, is well known as an advocate who has defended murders and rapes, says Witz. She joined the Pretoria Bar in 1998, before leaving for the Rebel Bar in North West in 2003. She became a member of the National Forum of Advocates in 2005 and also presided over trials as an assessor during this period. In 2006, she returned to Pretoria and joined the Legal Aid Board. In 2010, she became a unit manager in the South Gauteng High Court in Johannesburg.

A profile of Henzen-du Toit published by Beeld newspaper earlier this month pointed out that she was an expert in criminal justice. She has an Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation”.

Although not a judge, Henzen du Toit would appear to be better qualified than Masipa.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate

I did read elsewhere the source of which is lost in the mists of time that it was Themba Mazibuko’s first time acting in any official capacity in a court room

 

[Belgarion]

BIB red - "when"? Wishful thinking since the likelihood of that happening is nil. There's nothing for the Con Court to fix. The murderer will eventually get a deservedly longer sentence. He's history and no amount of declaring as fact that the CC will 'fix' the mess is going to change that. Not gonna happen.

…… but surely anything can happen somewhere over the rainbow in cloud cuckoo land

 

[cottonweaver]

Does anyone remember how the appeal will get thrown out. ie. Do they have to publish a written reason simultaneously?

I saw that there is a whole raft of "Cases dismissed" on their website, many of which were only received in January/Feb this year.
I interpret that as dismissed/thrown out/ not heard - however you want to phrase it.

I assume that each judge has a case load allotted to him/her for first reading. ( Similar to SCA process.)
Their Site also notes each Justice has law clerks and research assistants - as would be expected.

 

[cottonweaver]

Further to judgeJudi's updates on OP's former cellmate Krecjir, from K.Maughan's tweets at the sentencing court today, I note some statements from Krecjir sound very familiar.
Here's a sample in no particular order as well as a few tweets on NPA & Judge's comments. (Earlier this sentencing hearing was delayed due to a bomb threat, asssumed to be linked to the Krecjir crime syndicate.)

#Krejcir: sentence proposed by state is shockingly inappropriate and very harsh...I dispute that I'm arrogant.

#Krejcir: court must take into account my depression, panic attacks and bladder cancer...I'm father of the children who needs me
#Krejcir says his mental distress has been "like I've been in prison for 20 years"
#Krejcir: I am a father of children. I have been in prison for 27 months. During that period I had countless panic attacks mad depression
#Krejcir says he has been in "heavy depression state" since his arrest. He wants to describe "the hopelessness"
#Krejcir applies to call Zonderwater prison psychiatrist and psychologist as witnesses. Also his criminologist
#Krejcir wants to call his psychiatrist to testify. He's already told the court he has "the manic depression"
#Krejcir: public hates me and I can't blame them after all these sensational stories. But they don't know me.
#Krejcir: I hope the people behind the conspiracy against me will be one day be asking their consciousness
#Krejcir: all the applications I have bought were refused. You (judge) are biased against me. I did not receive a fair trial from you



prosecutor told judge:
Prosecutor: #Krejcir is arrogant and disrespectful to laws of this country.He told witness there was no police officer who'd ever arrest him
State opposing #Krejcir's application for postponement so his psychiatrist, criminologist etc can testify. "We can't be held hostage"

Judge: I must also remind myself that the purpose of punishment is to punish
Judge Lamont has just told Luphondo's lawyer to "stop being ridiculous" in her argument that he can't show remorse because he denies guilt.

Presume OP is following this hearing even though I doubt these two will ever share the same gaol again.

 

[mrjitty]

RSBM


Here’s some background on the assessors.

“Mannie Witz, an advocate with the Bridge Group at the Johannesburg Bar, says Mazibuko is "fresh out of university" and comes from an academic background. Other than that, little is known about him.

Henzen-du Toit, on the other hand, is well known as an advocate who has defended murders and rapes, says Witz. She joined the Pretoria Bar in 1998, before leaving for the Rebel Bar in North West in 2003. She became a member of the National Forum of Advocates in 2005 and also presided over trials as an assessor during this period. In 2006, she returned to Pretoria and joined the Legal Aid Board. In 2010, she became a unit manager in the South Gauteng High Court in Johannesburg.

A profile of Henzen-du Toit published by Beeld newspaper earlier this month pointed out that she was an expert in criminal justice. She has an Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation”.

Although not a judge, Henzen du Toit would appear to be better qualified than Masipa.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate

Agreed, whereas Mannie Witz appears to be completely unqualified

 

[JudgeJudi]

Krejcir sentence update:

Count 1: 25 years
Count 2: 15 years
Count 3: 15 years

10 years of each of counts 2 and 3 will run concurrently with count 1.

Effective term of imprisonment 35 years.

He’s going to apply for leave to appeal AND bail. Now that’s what I call optimism.

 

[cottonweaver]

BREAKING: Radovan Krejcir sentenced to 35 years in jail for drug dealing, kidnapping and attempted murder
Ever hopeful, #Krejcir wants to apply for bail

Judge: the current attitude of the accused is inconsistent with an appreciation of their condition and their need to rehabilitate
Judge rejects accused proposal that he sentence them to short time behind bars and then long period of suspended sentence

No exceptional & compelling personal circumstances granted for Krecjir in mitigation then, despite the cancer.
But seemingly no mention of the smuggling of weapons and comms devices into prison either - s'pose they have no need to mention them as the actual crimes are so serious.

https://twitter.com/karynmaughan

Wonder if Roux will fight for this at sentencing: short time behind bars and then longer period of suspended sentence

 

[Tortoise]

BREAKING: Radovan Krejcir sentenced to 35 years in jail for drug dealing, kidnapping and attempted murder
Ever hopeful, #Krejcir wants to apply for bail

Judge: the current attitude of the accused is inconsistent with an appreciation of their condition and their need to rehabilitate
Judge rejects accused proposal that he sentence them to short time behind bars and then long period of suspended sentence

No exceptional & compelling personal circumstances granted for Krecjir in mitigation then, despite the cancer.
But seemingly no mention of the smuggling of weapons and comms devices into prison either - s'pose they have no need to mention them as the actual crimes are so serious.

https://twitter.com/karynmaughan

Wonder if Roux will fight for this at sentencing: short time behind bars and then longer period of suspended sentence

Yes, one of the judge's remarks was something like the accused's non admission of the crime is inconsistent with rehabilitation. I'm sure I've got the words wrong but you get my drift.

The same must apply to Pistorius.

 

[aftermath]

Yes, one of the judge's remarks was something like the accused's non admission of the crime is inconsistent with rehabilitation. I'm sure I've got the words wrong but you get my drift.

The same must apply to Pistorius.

Pistorius admitted shooting someone

 

[Belgarion]

Pistorius admitted shooting someone

So he might have done, but only because he could hardly do otherwise (although I suppose he could have claimed another miraculous discharge)

However, the crime was murder as we now know. Did Pistorius admit or plead guilty to murder?

If not he did not admit to the crime.

 

[soozieqtips]

So he might have done, but only because he could hardly do otherwise (although I suppose he could have claimed another miraculous discharge)

However, the crime was murder as we now know. Did Pistorius admit or plead guilty to murder?

If not he did not admit to the crime.

BIB - LOL. Didn't he say indignantly that he 'failed' to see how he could be charged with premeditated murder, let alone murder?!

 

[Tortoise]

Pistorius admitted shooting someone

It is my view that he only did that because it was his bathroom, his gun and his girlfriend, and security started poking around before he had the chance to set up a break-in. I don't think his shouts for help were genuine, because the witnesses who heard them didn't either, and I think it was his plan to make neighbours think they were being attacked.

He denied every charge on the charge sheet, even when he looked like a complete fool for doing so.

He hasn't admitted the murder, and he was and still is quite obviously lying. You can hardly blame the prosecution for not being there to give Masipa the 100% proof she wanted, but they did a sterling job of taking his version apart.

 

[Tortoise]

Pistorius admitted shooting someone

What do you make of the appeal by the way?

 

[aftermath]

It is my view that he only did that because it was his bathroom, his gun and his girlfriend, and security started poking around before he had the chance to set up a break-in. I don't think his shouts for help were genuine, because the witnesses who heard them didn't either, and I think it was his plan to make neighbours think they were being attacked.

He denied every charge on the charge sheet, even when he looked like a complete fool for doing so.

He hasn't admitted the murder, and he was and still is quite obviously lying. You can hardly blame the prosecution for not being there to give Masipa the 100% proof she wanted, but they did a sterling job of taking his version apart.

They didn't really do that sterling a job though, did they? It wasn't just Masipa who felt they hadn't made their case for DD - which was the primary thrust of their case

 

[aftermath]

What do you make of the appeal by the way?

The SCA appeal or the request for a con court appeal?

 

[mhiforme]

So he might have done, but only because he could hardly do otherwise (although I suppose he could have claimed another miraculous discharge)

However, the crime was murder as we now know. Did Pistorius admit or plead guilty to murder?

If not he did not admit to the crime.

I can only imagine the impossible task that the Virgin Mary would have had trying to prove her miraculous birth in her day

 

[Tortoise]

They didn't really do that sterling a job though, did they? It wasn't just Masipa who felt they hadn't made their case for DD - which was the primary thrust of their case

I disagree. His version was disproved IMO, which is no mean feat considering only he was there. I don't think any other judge would have believed one word of his version, or concluded that it was anything other than an argument that turned to violence and escalated to murder.

If you study the SCA judgement you'll notice that the judges questioned Masipa's handling of DD as well, but it wasn't under appeal. I think Nel went for the safer option.