Overkill - Overkill in a homicide refers to the use of excessive force or brutality beyond what is necessary to cause death.

[GRT]

Oh my gosh!! You’re right!! We haven’t looked hard at the Easter Bunny at all!! LOL.

Agree. Some interactions here are just a total waste of time. I too am interested in facts and well sourced ideas. Not an echo chamber, but opinions that make sense and make me want to dig further and explore where they might lead.

Nice Easter Rabbit joke!

Rather than snark, however, I find research often more productive. No one researched as hard as Lou Smit did and no one had his credentials. He was a legend of sorts.

I get it that no one wants to buy a book and find out their favorite theories are very likely wrong--why would anyone spend money to prove themselves wrong, after all?

Here's an interview Katie Couric did with Lou Smit in 1998, and it lays out many of the reasons the intruder theory was always much more likely than the family-involved scenario.

Plus, it's free.

 

[Meara]

This is why I no longer will respond to any posts that become argumentative right out the gate. You and I have differing theories but I want to hear factual information ( to which you are great at resourcing btw) that either supports my theory or dismantles it. Example, I have never really thought PR was responsible. I read somewhere that PR upbringing was very harsh and abusive. That may or may not be true but it gave thought to another reason where there could be a motive where I could not see one.
I personally get tired of the Ramsey's were persecuted because people didn't agree with the pageant pictures?
Do I agree with it emphatically no but there are plenty of baseball and soccer dads and moms out there who become unhinged at games. I do not look at each one as a potential murderer. Having the ability to view things from many angles never hurt scientists, inventors, or LE but eventually you travel down the road where the facts most support your theory.

We may all be wrong. We haven't given a hard look
at the Easter bunny.

OMG the Easter Bunny. Talk about overlooking a possibility that's staring you right in the face! The Lazarus connection, the similarities between JonBenet and jelly bean, PR's loss of her ovaries/eggs, the purple color scheme, the smeared chocolate, 'if you do x,y, or z, she dies/dyes'.... This cries out for further investigation!

 

[Choices]

Nobody was cleared. You need to do more research to see how that played out and who was the person clearing them. How exactly can DNA clear someone who lives with the victim. My sons DNA is all over me and mine on him. All we had to do was share a toilet, a hand towel, a blanket throw. What does that tell you? Nothing for either argument . Ramseys fibers were found on the body where it should not have been found had an intruder taped her mouth or bound her ect but it can't be proven or disproven which means LE keeps looking at them and rightfully so.

Even experts have mixed opinions let alone lay observers hearing lots of different information coming from who knows where and whose accuracy may be questionable.
Existence of an unknown partial DNA profile raises the possibility someone else is responsible, if nothing else. Notably the specific areas it was found - I don't suppose under the fingernails and mixed with blood spots in the underwear of such a young child are common. How many other person's DNA was in these curious areas I wonder... Authorities were confident enough to rule out 200 people. That said, there is a lot that's strange about the case. Things that don't seem to add up. Have watched the Ramseys in interviews and other things. It's not hard to become suspicious. Watching another 60 mins video annoyed me when I realized their reporting is completely one sided. To go down every reasonable path, I agreed with having the DNA geanologist featured, said to have worked on hundreds of cases, be given access but I am gathering the Boulder PD is denying it. A documentary I did like, the thought provoking and objective "The Endless Riddle of Jonbenet Ramsey" gave all the main theories a fair airing while not taking sides. I admit I started leaning toward the family being responsible before seeing it. I believed the RN was written by PR for example. Still, I have questions.
So much is problematic concerning the Ramseys, I get why their own friends have questioned it. Despite that, the theory of either parent garotting JBR is incredible - it's a very personal act whether they thought she was dead or not... leaving only Burke ??

MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

Nice Easter Rabbit joke!

Rather than snark, however, I find research often more productive. No one researched as hard as Lou Smit did and no one had his credentials. He was a legend of sorts.

I get it that no one wants to buy a book and find out their favorite theories are very likely wrong--why would anyone spend money to prove themselves wrong, after all?

Here's an interview Katie Couric did with Lou Smit in 1998, and it lays out many of the reasons the intruder theory was always much more likely than the family-involved scenario.

Plus, it's free.

No snark? LOL. Ok.

I've seen this interview, more than once. It's old news, nothing new or revelatory here. And it's been easily debunked over the years. I am aware of Lou's reputation. He came up with some interesting theories in this case, but he couldn't prove them. He presented his theory to the Grand Jury along with another IDI theorist John Douglas. The Grand Jury didn't see it either. Both men had great reputations that took some hits with this case

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

OMG the Easter Bunny. Talk about overlooking a possibility that's staring you right in the face! The Lazarus connection, the similarities between JonBenet and jelly bean, PR's loss of her ovaries/eggs, the purple color scheme, the smeared chocolate, 'if you do x,y, or z, she dies/dyes'.... This cries out for further investigation!

Omg, that was hysterical!

I laughed so hard I think I need to shower again before my dinner party! : )
Even funnier, it beats most of the theories out there!!

 

[Meara]

4 things that sink the intruder theory for me

The Grand Jury
In GJ hearings, the prosecution presents its case. In a highly unusual move, intruder theory evidence was presented to the Ramsey GJ. They found the intruder case uncompelling and indicted the parents. Alex Hunter then hid the indictments for several years until legal action forced him to disclose them.

The Stun Gun
While the physical evidence seems to indicate the use of a stun gun, and a stun gun works well in intruder theories, the fact remains that no actual stun gun manufactured matches the marks found on the body.

The Phone Records
When detectives finally got access to the phone records, the one for December was wiped clean. This is unheard of. It indicates the intervention of a person or persons with enough power to get the records erased and remain anonymous in doing so. A cover-up indicates the existence of something to be covered up and Ramsey motive to conceal key evidence.

The Lack of Footprints
I'm tired of the bogus arguments about this. There was a light dusting of snow in Boulder on the night of December 25-26, and the temperature did not rise above 7*F till after dawn; i.e., the snow did not melt away overnight. The light snow did not stay on the walkways around the house because they retain more heat than the ground, and the 25th had been warm (mid-50s F, IIRC). The snow did stay on the ground immediately around the house and on the snow still on the ground from an earlier snowfall. The strip of grass around the grate over the train room window was one of the places where the overnight snow remained undisturbed. This was observed and reported by police first on the scene. The lack of footprints in that area and in the snow around the rest of the house, plus the lack of forced entry anywhere that could have been accessed by a walkway not covered with snow, indicated that there was no intruder. Photos have circulated online showing grass around the grate not covered in snow. These have been used to bolster the intruder theory but do not in fact do so because they were taken later in the morning after the temperature rose and the light snow had begun to melt. Had there been an intruder in the night, there would have been footprints in the snow when police first arrived.

 

[Meara]

Omg, that was hysterical!

I laughed so hard I think I need to shower again before my dinner party! : )
Even funnier, it beats most of the theories out there!!

All credit goes to you for the inspiration!! Enjoy your evening : )

 

[GRT]

OMG the Easter Bunny. Talk about overlooking a possibility that's staring you right in the face! The Lazarus connection, the similarities between JonBenet and jelly bean, PR's loss of her ovaries/eggs, the purple color scheme, the smeared chocolate, 'if you do x,y, or z, she dies/dyes'.... This cries out for further investigation!

I liked the joke, too. It was almost as funny as thinking a 9-year-old child split his sister's head open and then his parents finished her off.

Good comedy here for sure!

 

[CloudedTruth]

Even experts have mixed opinions let alone lay observers hearing lots of different information coming from who knows where and whose accuracy may be questionable.
Existence of an unknown partial DNA profile raises the possibility someone else is responsible, if nothing else. Notably the specific areas it was found - I don't suppose under the fingernails and mixed with blood spots in the underwear of such a young child are common. How many other person's DNA was in these curious areas I wonder... Authorities were confident enough to rule out 200 people. That said, there is a lot that's strange about the case. Things that don't seem to add up. Have watched the Ramseys in interviews and other things. It's not hard to become suspicious. Watching another 60 mins video annoyed me when I realized their reporting is completely one sided. To go down every reasonable path, I agreed with having the DNA geanologist featured, said to have worked on hundreds of cases, be given access but I am gathering the Boulder PD is denying it. A documentary I did like, the thought provoking and objective "The Endless Riddle of Jonbenet Ramsey" gave all the main theories a fair airing while not taking sides. I admit I started leaning toward the family being responsible before seeing it. I believed the RN was written by PR for example. Still, I have questions.
So much is problematic concerning the Ramseys, I get why their own friends have questioned it. Despite that, the theory of either parent garotting JBR is incredible - it's a very personal act whether they thought she was dead or not... leaving only Burke ??

MOO

The partial DNA in this case is very questionable. As they continue to test it, they have discovered that it is likely a conglomeration of genetic material from possibly multiple people, which calls into question the "unknown male" DNA that was at one time widely publicized. And since it is touch DNA, it could have come from anyone, anywhere at anytime who might have touched those places. This would include at a manufacturing plant and when the items were packaged prior to sale. There is also an issue with the DNA supposed match between the panties and the long johns. This is the major issue with touch or trace DNA. It could come from anywhere. And unless it can be matched with DNA found in other significant to the case places, it's literally a long shot guess that it came from the person who committed the crime. This was all made very clear to DA Mary Lacy, who chose to ignore this information and claim that the DNA evidence exonerated the R's. It just doesn't. Because of these most recent findings, the current DA is skeptical that this actually is a DNA case. There was just such a small amount to begin with, which along with a lacking of evidence of an intruder to begin with, does it make sense to spend tax dollars to keep retesting when the more recent tests seem to not support the intruder theory? The DNA was uploaded to the CODIS database years ago and has never had a match. This is likely because it is a conglomeration and not "one unknown male".

I'll have to check out the documentary you mention, I don't think I've seen that one.

I do agree the garroting is on another level. It's hard to accept. But IMHO this was an accident but since there was prior SA going on, they made the decision they had to cover it all up. I can only imagine the mindsets after realizing what had happened and then how a cover up should be executed. I think desperation may have come into play.

But the changing stories about the broken window and what happened after they arrived home that night point to them hiding something. How convenient that their ability to delay being interviewed led to so many answers of "I don't remember". Did they really want this case to be solved? They said they did, but their actions said the opposite. I have big doubts.

 

[CloudedTruth]

4 things that sink the intruder theory for me

The Grand Jury
In GJ hearings, the prosecution presents its case. In a highly unusual move, intruder theory evidence was presented to the Ramsey GJ. They found the intruder case uncompelling and indicted the parents. Alex Hunter then hid the indictments for several years until legal action forced him to disclose them.

The Stun Gun
While the physical evidence seems to indicate the use of a stun gun, and a stun gun works well in intruder theories, the fact remains that no actual stun gun manufactured matches the marks found on the body.

The Phone Records
When detectives finally got access to the phone records, the one for December was wiped clean. This is unheard of. It indicates the intervention of a person or persons with enough power to get the records erased and remain anonymous in doing so. A cover-up indicates the existence of something to be covered up and Ramsey motive to conceal key evidence.

The Lack of Footprints
I'm tired of the bogus arguments about this. There was a light dusting of snow in Boulder on the night of December 25-26, and the temperature did not rise above 7*F till after dawn; i.e., the snow did not melt away overnight. The light snow did not stay on the walkways around the house because they retain more heat than the ground, and the 25th had been warm (mid-50s F, IIRC). The snow did stay on the ground immediately around the house and on the snow still on the ground from an earlier snowfall. The strip of grass around the grate over the train room window was one of the places where the overnight snow remained undisturbed. This was observed and reported by police first on the scene. The lack of footprints in that area and in the snow around the rest of the house, plus the lack of forced entry anywhere that could have been accessed by a walkway not covered with snow, indicated that there was no intruder. Photos have circulated online showing grass around the grate not covered in snow. These have been used to bolster the intruder theory but do not in fact do so because they were taken later in the morning after the temperature rose and the light snow had begun to melt. Had there been an intruder in the night, there would have been footprints in the snow when police first arrived.

I would add.....I live in Colorado. Denver is known as the Mile High City, which means the intensity of the sun is much greater than at lower altitudes. Snow melts surprisingly fast especially on hard surfaces when daylight occurs. We do not know what time those pictures were taken that show no snow on the hard surfaces, but clearly they were taken after sunrise and not when the police first arrived.

Additionally, all of Smit's observations were made from photographs, he was not present at the crime scene.

 

[Meara]

I would add.....I live in Colorado. Denver is known as the Mile High City, which means the intensity of the sun is much greater than at lower altitudes. Snow melts surprisingly fast especially on hard surfaces when daylight occurs. We do not know what time those pictures were taken that show no snow on the hard surfaces, but clearly they were taken after sunrise and not when the police first arrived.

Additionally, all of Smit's observations were made from photographs, he was not present at the crime scene.

Thanks for the information about the effects of elevation - I hadn't realized - and the reminder that Lou Smit had to rely on a lot of photo evidence.

I forgot to say earlier that I hadn't seen the 60 Minutes video before but did watch it today. All I can say is, I wish the intruder theory worked.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Thanks for the information about the effects of elevation - I hadn't realized - and the reminder that Lou Smit had to rely on a lot of photo evidence.

I forgot to say earlier that I hadn't seen the 60 Minutes video before but did watch it today. All I can say is, I wish the intruder theory worked.

I forgot to mention the south facing effect too. We have a south facing driveway and our neighbors across the street have to shovel way more than we do. It’s actually a selling point here. Anything that the sun hits is going to melt first and quickly.

 

[Meara]

I forgot to mention the south facing effect too. We have a south facing driveway and our neighbors across the street have to shovel way more than we do. It’s actually a selling point here. Anything that the sun hits is going to melt first and quickly.

I was going to mention it but decided that what I'd written was long enough! It's good you included this detail.

From the time I began following the case online, I realized the house is the key to everything. It holds so much information. If you don't know the house, you don't get the case.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I was going to mention it but decided that what I'd written was long enough! It's good you included this detail.

From the time I began following the case online, I realized the house is the key to everything. It holds so much information. If you don't know the house, you don't get the case.

For sure……the house is absolutely a very key aspect of this case. Excellent and extremely relevant point.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

4 things that sink the intruder theory for me

The Grand Jury
In GJ hearings, the prosecution presents its case. In a highly unusual move, intruder theory evidence was presented to the Ramsey GJ. They found the intruder case uncompelling and indicted the parents. Alex Hunter then hid the indictments for several years until legal action forced him to disclose them.

The Stun Gun
While the physical evidence seems to indicate the use of a stun gun, and a stun gun works well in intruder theories, the fact remains that no actual stun gun manufactured matches the marks found on the body.

The Phone Records
When detectives finally got access to the phone records, the one for December was wiped clean. This is unheard of. It indicates the intervention of a person or persons with enough power to get the records erased and remain anonymous in doing so. A cover-up indicates the existence of something to be covered up and Ramsey motive to conceal key evidence.

The Lack of Footprints
I'm tired of the bogus arguments about this. There was a light dusting of snow in Boulder on the night of December 25-26, and the temperature did not rise above 7*F till after dawn; i.e., the snow did not melt away overnight. The light snow did not stay on the walkways around the house because they retain more heat than the ground, and the 25th had been warm (mid-50s F, IIRC). The snow did stay on the ground immediately around the house and on the snow still on the ground from an earlier snowfall. The strip of grass around the grate over the train room window was one of the places where the overnight snow remained undisturbed. This was observed and reported by police first on the scene. The lack of footprints in that area and in the snow around the rest of the house, plus the lack of forced entry anywhere that could have been accessed by a walkway not covered with snow, indicated that there was no intruder. Photos have circulated online showing grass around the grate not covered in snow. These have been used to bolster the intruder theory but do not in fact do so because they were taken later in the morning after the temperature rose and the light snow had begun to melt. Had there been an intruder in the night, there would have been footprints in the snow when police first arrived.

The 4 things that sink it for me:
1.The too many to count floor to ceiling windows that opened and 5-6 doors that if used would have you off the property before you got both feet out of the cellar window and on the grate.
2. The ransom note. I don't think an explanation is warranted.
3.The 911 call. Have someone read the PR lines. Or just read them to yourself. When you omit the heavy breathing and OMGs. The words don't fit the occasion.
"I'm the mother" "There was a note" "She's blond"
Now imagine finding the note ( not one reading like BR writing assignment) and calling the police and not cutting straight to what they threatened to do to your child but instead your speaking like a worried mom who may have lost her kid in the grocery store. Would you not be screaming "get here now! they've threatened to behead her. You've got to find her or they will kill her." There was only one word by used PR that spelled trouble for JB and that was the word kidnapped. She dies, She dies, She dies, beheading, ect none of that was on the forefront of the conversation nor emphasized so LE would know just how critical the situation is. After all, it's the most critical part of the RN, ( THE FREAKING INSTRUCTIONS!)
4. Mary Lacy. Missing phone records, DA giving Ramseys copies of evidence , Fake exonerations meant to mislead. It gets confusing who the DA was working for.
This funny relationship surely didn't help with the "conspiracy theories".
There are definitely more than 4 tho. Maybe tomorrow

 

[GRT]

Because of these most recent findings, the current DA is skeptical that this actually is a DNA case. There was just such a small amount to begin with, which along with a lacking of evidence of an intruder to begin with, does it make sense to spend tax dollars to keep retesting when the more recent tests seem to not support the intruder theory? The DNA was uploaded to the CODIS database years ago and has never had a match. This is likely because it is a conglomeration and not "one unknown male".

The DNA is a vital bit of evidence. After all, John Mark Karr was ruled out after his confession because his DNA was not a match.

It's highly suspicious that the Boulder PD still refuses to allow some of the remaining DNA to be subjected to more advanced tests. What was uploaded to CODIS a couple of decades ago was never subjected to modern testing that has improved substantially.

Today's technology can provide Familial DNA searching that can pull up partial matches and identify relatives of the DNA donor. But maybe the biggest advance comes in Forensic Phenotyping that actually predicts physical characteristics, including hair and eye color.

When it's been this long since the murder, a police department that doesn't jump at the chance to run highly specialized tests is naturally going to be looked at through skeptical eyes.

And, rightly so.

It makes it look as though they don't really want to find the killer.

 

[Meara]

The DNA is a vital bit of evidence. After all, John Mark Karr was ruled out after his confession because his DNA was not a match.

It's highly suspicious that the Boulder PD still refuses to allow some of the remaining DNA to be subjected to more advanced tests. What was uploaded to CODIS a couple of decades ago was never subjected to modern testing that has improved substantially.

Today's technology can provide Familial DNA searching that can pull up partial matches and identify relatives of the DNA donor. But maybe the biggest advance comes in Forensic Phenotyping that actually predicts physical characteristics, including hair and eye color.

When it's been this long since the murder, a police department that doesn't jump at the chance to run highly specialized tests is naturally going to be looked at through skeptical eyes.

And, rightly so.

It makes it look as though they don't really want to find the killer.

What I read was that Boulder PD withheld some of the DNA because it gets used up in testing, they didn't have a lot of it to start with, and they wanted to reserve some until the technology improved. I'd have to look for the source on that, but I'm pretty sure that's what was reported. It's credible but may or may be true. Have you ever come across that explanation for the withheld DNA?

 

[GRT]

4 things that sink the intruder theory for me

The Grand Jury
In GJ hearings, the prosecution presents its case. In a highly unusual move, intruder theory evidence was presented to the Ramsey GJ. They found the intruder case uncompelling and indicted the parents. Alex Hunter then hid the indictments for several years until legal action forced him to disclose them.

RSBM

Alex Hunter didn't hide the indictments -- there were no indictments. There was only a True Bill, and GJ proceedings are typically sealed.

You're partially correct that legal action forced a disclosure, but only four pages were ever disclosed, and we still have no clue what was on the others.

You can read those four pages here.

What I read was that Boulder PD withheld some of the DNA because it gets used up in testing, they didn't have a lot of it to start with, and they wanted to reserve some until the technology improved. I'd have to look for the source on that, but I'm pretty sure that's what was reported. It's credible but may or may be true. Have you ever come across that explanation for the withheld DNA?

That's basically what I remember reading as well.

IMHO, given the advances in DNA technology, it's time to test the samples again. And, there are also DNA samples that were taken from under her fingernails that did not match the samples on her panties and long johns. Those samples may have been contaminated when they were taken, based on the fact the pathologist used the same fingernail clippers on 7 or 8 other cadavars. Yet, they tested the fingernail samples against the DNA of those cadavars and there was no match.

Given the amount of time that's passed and the advances in DNA technology, I think it's time to retest. They may or may not get a hit that leads them to the killer, but sitting on their hands doesn't appear to be working either.

 

[Meara]

The 4 things that sink it for me:
1.The too many to count floor to ceiling windows that opened and 5-6 doors that if used would have you off the property before you got both feet out of the cellar window and on the grate.
2. The ransom note. I don't think an explanation is warranted.
3.The 911 call. Have someone read the PR lines. Or just read them to yourself. When you omit the heavy breathing and OMGs. The words don't fit the occasion.
"I'm the mother" "There was a note" "She's blond"
Now imagine finding the note ( not one reading like BR writing assignment) and calling the police and not cutting straight to what they threatened to do to your child but instead your speaking like a worried mom who may have lost her kid in the grocery store. Would you not be screaming "get here now! they've threatened to behead her. You've got to find her or they will kill her." There was only one word by used PR that spelled trouble for JB and that was the word kidnapped. She dies, She dies, She dies, beheading, ect none of that was on the forefront of the conversation nor emphasized so LE would know just how critical the situation is. After all, it's the most critical part of the RN, ( THE FREAKING INSTRUCTIONS!)
4. Mary Lacy. Missing phone records, DA giving Ramseys copies of evidence , Fake exonerations meant to mislead. It gets confusing who the DA was working for.
This funny relationship surely didn't help with the "conspiracy theories".
There are definitely more than 4 tho. Maybe tomorrow

Excellent list. Very interesting take on the 911 call.

I do have to add a fifth item to my list.

The Blue Suitcase
If an intruder had come in and scoped out the house, he would have realized that the butler pantry door was the one closest to the basement and led to the quickest cover under the trees. Even if he had exited through the train room window, it is not credible that he would have stood on the suitcase when there was a small chair in the train room, and a stepping stool, and a higher chair near the stairs, any of which would have provided more stable footing, and all three of which he would have passed at least twice (crime scene video, beginning at 00.51).

 

[GRT]

I would add.....I live in Colorado. Denver is known as the Mile High City, which means the intensity of the sun is much greater than at lower altitudes. Snow melts surprisingly fast especially on hard surfaces when daylight occurs. We do not know what time those pictures were taken that show no snow on the hard surfaces, but clearly they were taken after sunrise and not when the police first arrived.

Additionally, all of Smit's observations were made from photographs, he was not present at the crime scene.

I grew up in Craig, so I can verify the quick-melting phenomenon--especially on the south side of a building. However, wasn't that window on the house's north side?

It's true Smit's observations came from photos, but that's also true for most of the detectives who've worked that case for the past few decades.

The difference, in MOO, is that Smit was more experienced than most PD detectives, and he had a very high success rate in finding perps that others couldn't. He was called in specifically for his high-level of expertise, and he only resigned in frustration when the PD didn't seem interested in looking at the evidence he'd collected.