PA - Amtrak train from Washington crashes in Philadelphia, May 2015

[KEVINinTO]

I am not sure - I do not think the FBI has examined it yet - but it sure looks the same as the other two- we need to wait for FBI analysis of windsheild -
Ntsb will have no expertise in that arena!

I vote the left thing was not in accident sequence - IMO! Well see!


and the post a few back from a train engineer explained that they dont reduce throttle (sounds strange I know!) but do apply brakes before entering a curve

But Mark Rosenker, a former N.T.S.B. chairman, said the impact from a thrown object could have affected the engineer and led to the crash. He could have been startled to a point of distraction to lose situational awareness and forget that he was supposed to slow down instead of accelerating,” Mr. Rosenker said in an interview Friday.



Usually you just leave the throttle open until you get up to 80 miles per hour, then put on the brake for the curve,” he said. “Seems reasonable that something happened right about that time he would have started slowing down that kept him from taking the throttle off. He was startled by the impact or whatever. And by the time he realized it, it was too late.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/us...phia.html?_r=0

BBM I think the reason why they don't have to touch the throttle position is because electric trains use regenerative braking in which the electric traction motors are turned into electrical generators with the energy produced being fed back to the grid. Unlike conventional friction brakes which convert kinetic energy into heat - regenerative braking converts kinetic energy into electricity. This is why there is no need to change the throttle position if the intention is to resume the same high speed after coming out of the curve.

For this reason I believe that the position of the throttle during the accident sequence will not be relevant. The big question will be if regular braking was applied and when. IIRC it was reported that the Engineer applied the emergency friction braking system but I wonder if we know if he applied the regular brakes? Regenerative braking is an extremely complex system involving electro-mechanical devices and computers. I wonder if there was a failure in this system.

 

[KEVINinTO]

Just adding to my above post here is a white paper on regenerative braking system failures which will give you an idea of just how complex these systems are

http://www.uic.org/cdrom/2001/wcrr2001/pdf/sp/1_17/105.pdf

We see from the white paper that if the trains pantograph loses contact with the overhead catenary wire the regenerative brake system will fail because it is unable to return power to the grid. These are extremely complex systems . It is not like driving a car where you take your foot off the accelerator and slam on the brakes.

 

[CARIIS]

They didn't see anything hitting the train on video, and they didn't hear the Amtrak engineer saying anything about his train being hit when they listened to the actual radio dispatch recordings. To me, it seem kind of ridiculous that NTSB went to the press with a claim that conductor overheard something, when there doesn't appear to be anything to verify that train was hit by an object or that engineer claimed train was hit by an object. So far, I don't think there is any evidence this train was hit by any objects. Except for damage to the front window, but considering the train was derailed, I bet the damage to the window happened after derailment.
I don't know what happened, but I find human error difficult to believe, considering this guy claims he wasn't texting, was not on drugs, was not fatigued or sick, and knew the speed limits.

Hi JJ

Re: it seem kind of ridiculous that NTSB went to the press with a claim that conductor overheard something

they are very special and unique. They only deal in fact. But the public and media, cause of the way most other entities provivde informaion, dont understand their MO!

THE NTSB has never said the Amtrak train was struck, they reported the fact that a conductor reported that to them. That is a fact she reported that. That is their whole tradition, any fact we will report to the public. We will not speculate or make implications- it is their credo!

They then take facts, which govern their next step. In this instance they know windsheild shatters are not their area, so they reached out to the FBI and said this one fact we have. The conductor said this . Will you investigate and get back to us.

If you notice how they state everything- its in their blood. The never said the engineer did X or Y. They have thus far stated the emergency brakes activted 3 seconds before the recorder ceased recording.

They never said the egineer speeded up to X. They state at X the train was going x. The media takes the fact released and adds to it "Engineer Sped Up ",, that is not what NTSB stated! There is a huge difference between the statements.

Same here with projectile..... I understand many blurring the two - it is what we are used to.

It is the same with Sundays reporting: "The NTSB said that the train was not hit". The NTSB did not say the train was not hit. The NTSB reported the fact that on recordings their was no discussion of being struck. Again, there is a huge difference!

I just get them casue I have been fascinated by them, and read their reports since childhood. Their reports are seperated into two specfic sections : Facts then Analysis section. THey seperate the two entities - that is why there reports take so long to make it to final.

Just a PS: Any member of the board, can "Dissent" with the collective conclusion, they write up a sperate section and it is included in the main report.dzx

 

[Inthedetails]

Back on track.

"Amtrak trains resumed service between New York City and Philadelphia early Monday, as a few dozen passengers cautiously rode the first train scheduled to depart the 30th Street station after last week's deadly derailment."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...hiladelphia-services-resume-article-1.2226282

 

[FranP]

That's just whack all those hrs??? What does the Union say about it? I'm Canadian and know how our Unions work so very curious about this. We also have an Employee standard act issued by the Government. I guess what I really want to know is are those hrs. scheduled or agreed upon by a call? TIA

There are rules about how much the booking on time can vary from one day to the next (I think it's 2 hours either way from the booking on time the day before), and they have to have 12 hours off between shifts by law. But that doesn't really help much when someone is booking for a shift at 18.00, getting home at 04.00, and then back on at 16.30 the next day (yep, that's happened).

Mostly, the drivers know, because the rooster would have come out the previous week (or earlier, if you're lucky), but if they're working overtime, or on a 'spare' turn (where they don't have a booked job, but have to be available at work to pick up jobs where the booked driver can't do it), then yep, those hours are all over the place.

They stay within the law, just.

 

[CARIIS]

Anyone know what time the intial trip up started?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Remembering my friend, Rachel Jacobs

Author: Darren Garrett, Producer, dgarrett@wdiv.com

Published On: May 17 2015 09:36:45 PM EDT

This week is a milestone I’ve been dreading. On Thursday, I turn 40 years old.

I had an early birthday lunch Sunday with my oldest friend, Kelly. She and I have been friends since 6th grade. Sadly, we spent much of the lunch talking about our old classmate Rachel Jacobs, who died last week in the Amtrak train crash.

Kelly and Rachel had known each other since Burton Elementary School in Huntington Woods. I met both Kelly and Rachel at Norup Middle School. We would be classmates for the next 7 years, graduating together as part of the class of 1993 at Berkley High School. This is supposed to be a milestone year for our class. The year we all hit the big 4-0. But last week, there was Rachel’s picture, plastered all over the news: ‘Dead at age 39’...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/remembering-my-friend-rachel-jacobs/33074810

 

[CARIIS]

Recordings of calls by police that night of "objects" at other train - have no idea where media gets anything about bullets - i have never heard anyone say gunfire, and IMO they all look like rocks on all three!

http://nypost.com/2015/05/18/gunfire-chatter-before-deadly-amtrak-derailment/

The National Transportation Safety Board said it has not ruled out the possibility an object may have struck the windshield but is uncertain the locomotive was hit at all before the May 12 derailment, which killed eight people and injured more than 200 others. Investigators are certain a gunshot did not strike the train.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/amtrak-restore-full-northeast-corridor-service-31114624

 

[Footwarrior]

YA bit of background on how the two main controls for the engine work. When the throttle is wide open, an ACS-64 pulling eight passenger cars will accelerate from stopped to 125 mph in about 2 1/2 minutes. If a lower cruising speed is desired the throttle is backed off when that speed is reached. Routine braking is done with regeneration. The traction motors are run as generators and the power is dumped back into the overhead line. A separate hydraulic braking system kicks in if regenerative breaking isn't slowing the train fast enough. It appears that once the braking lever is engaged the engine control system ignores the throttle setting. To slow down for a curve, the driver need only engage the brake system and doesn't need to adjust the throttle. Once past the curve, the brakes are disengaged and the engine will resume accelerating.

There are also some automatic controls. The top speed is limited to 125 mph, the top cruising speed for these trains on the NE corridor. The engine also has a deadman system. If the driver does not adjust the controls for 60 seconds an alert is generated. The driver has three seconds to hit a button or the train will automatically engage the brakes for a full emergency stop.

On tracks where the PTC system is operational, the engine will alert the driver is the speed limit for any section of track is exceeded. The driver has eight seconds to adjust the controls to start reducing trains speed and hit an acknowledge button. If the driver doesn't respond the PTC system will slow down the train. The PTC system also handles caution and red lights by slowing or stopping the train.

 

[CARIIS]

Humm in discussing resumption of servce this stood out to me:

"None of the people on board Amtrak’s Train 110, which had left Washington at 4 a.m., expressed concerns about safety on the rails since the derailment."

Which leads me to conclude that on the day of wreck he had to be in the locomotive at 4am. Who knows what his prep-time, drive time etc but the implications are that is one heck of a long a## day.

Does that translate to he had been (forget a break between arriving and departing) engaged in being an "engineer" for around 17 hours that day?

No wonder they have not released when the run started that day. Anyone have any ideas how we could find out if that is indeed what happened on that day?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-amtrak-rail-service-20150518-story.html

 

[KaaBoom]

Does that translate to he had been (forget a break between arriving and departing) engaged in being an "engineer" for around 17 hours that day?

No, that would be illegal. Federal law prohibits train engineers from working more then 12 hours a day, with a rest period of 10 hours between shifts.

Maximum Hours of Service

 

[Bravo]

Latest I could find
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/politics/philadelphia-train-accident-speed-investigation/

 

[corundogs]

Latest I could find
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/politics/philadelphia-train-accident-speed-investigation/

Thanks! It's been pretty quiet in here...

 

[CARIIS]

????


On that first night, detectives also questioned the assistant conductor who said she didn't notice anything abnormal or mention any issues about hearing radio transmissions about a projectile being thrown at the train, a law enforcement official said. The assistant conductor would later tell the NTSB she overheard radio transmission between the Amtrak engineer and a SEPTA engineer mentioning rock throwing. The NTSB did not find any radio transmissions to corroborate the assistant conductors claims.

We all know this, but the way it was worded..............................................
The derailment happened the day before the House Appropriations committee voted on Amtrak funding.

For the first time I got chills - then I thought maybe at that speed he thought he would be killed ?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/politics/philadelphia-train-accident-speed-investigation/

 

[CARIIS]

Tid bits

Important IMO:

A system that displays track signals on the train's dashboard failed, forcing the 32-year-old Bostian to pay close attention while reducing speeds on the Acela Express train — which tops out at 150 mph in designated areas — to below 80 mph, the organization's Ron Kaminkow said. "It wasn't a routine run," Kaminkow said.


The Acela arrived at Washington's Union Station 26 minutes late, leaving Bostian about an hour to rest, eat and go to the bathroom before his trip back to New York on the Northeast Regional train that eventually derailed in Philadelphia, according to

Engineers used to have at least 90 minutes between trips, Kaminkow and Edler said, but a March 23 schedule change ended the decades-old practice. The swift turnarounds have "the ability to create more fatigue in the workforce, plain and simple," Kaminkow said.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2015/05/20/3757003/feds-trying-to-determine-if-amtrak.html#storylink=cpy


​

a veteran Amtrak engineer with knowledge of Bostian's schedule.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2015/05/20/3757003/feds-trying-to-determine-if-amtrak.html#storylink=cpy


​

If i am correct the run is 3 hr, 30 min.

3 hr, 30 min
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/feds-determine-amtrak-engineer-phone-31183861
Railroad Workers United, a consortium of train unions, said Wednesday that Bostian's shift the day of the derailment had been particularly grueling and that equipment-related delays on his earlier train to Washington shortened his rest break.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2015/05/20/3757003/feds-trying-to-determine-if-amtrak.html#storylink=cpy


​

 

[CARIIS]

Trying to get a realistic idea of his work day that day. He was schuduled for full time 5 days, wash - ny ny wash being the day.

Due to arrive 1034 that night . , had the trip gone routinely, Bostian would have been off-duty by 11:00 PM. From what I read in the newspapers (tying to find the link) he lived in Forest Hills Queens and commuted to work via LIRR -so you take the commute etc lets say he left the house around 12:30 PM and would be home by 12:00 midnight.

Folks need prep time at home before departure to the office. So lets say up 1030 derailed at 920ish so had been up for almost 12 hours, after a strssful run up due to malfuctioning equimement. Fatigue could certainly be here . It will be interestiing to see what time the first text or call was made that day to find out how long he had actually been "up"

http://www.amtrak.com/acela-express-train

 

[jjenny]

"Brandon Bostian, 32, could face criminal charges if law enforcement finds he was reckless or negligent when the train approached a curve at more than 100 mph, according to former prosecutors. But any prosecution would have to pass a high bar."
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/n...road_Amtrak_engineer.html#x2H9kJEv3yLfJYAW.99

 

[CARIIS]

With the passage of time, and atypical quiet from NTSB what I do not get is this:

It’s unclear whether Bostian manually accelerated, Sumwalt said, though a data recorder shows that he did engage a braking system seconds before the derailment.

This makes no sense - the data recorder records inputs second by second. They have had the recorder readout now for some time. By this point in time they should be able to declare that the throttle was manually moved forward, or it was not. The recorder records in sequence, obviously, they announced quickly the application of brakes BY the engineer. The data right before the brake application should be input from the throttle and how the machine responded -or an uncommanded increase in RPMs, with no throttle movement recorded.

There is not like a "mystery", in terms of did the recorder record forward movement on the throttle in the sixty seconds of data prior to the application of brakes.

THe longer this remains "as it is" it leads to me wonder, if there was not manual acceleration, which would then explain the inability to clear this up- something with the locomotive?

That too, in a way, makes sense, in that would take quite a bit of time inputting together and understadning that scenario

http://www.delcotimes.com/general-n...we-know-right-now-about-the-deadly-derailment

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

They need to scour through the engineer's PM's, SM posts, texts & all correspondence.
Because I believe it was *speed* initiated by him that caused the fatality.
We want the motives.

 

[jjenny]

They need to scour through the engineer's PM's, SM posts, texts & all correspondence.
Because I believe it was *speed* initiated by him that caused the fatality.
We want the motives.

ITA. From what I am reading, they ruled out mechanical issues with the train.