PA PA - Judy Smith, 50, Philadelphia, 10 April 1997

[gaia227]

Another thought... and it's way out there... but, what if that body wasn't Judy? I've read that dental records were sent down from Boston to NC and that forensics made a positive ID based on that. However, I also read a quote (I read alot of this case last night after drinking 3 Cokes yesterday and not being able to sleep) that someone said that Judy had had extensive dental work and the body they found had also had extensive dental work. I wonder how closely they looked at it? Here what makes me think there is a small chance it's not her:

- the general quote of implying "oh they both had lots of dental work"
- the local LE saying there was animal hair on her clothes that could be from a horse, when my first thought was wild animals (the comment just didn't seem very 'smart' to me - can't think of the right word here - just seems like local LE may not be making alot of connections all around)
- the long underwear, etc, doesn't match time of year
- coronor saying body had been there at least a year, maybe two

The sightings? Well, she doesn't really stand out or anything - could be mistaken identities. For example, MONTHS later, how do you recall that a woman bought a sandwich and spent X amt of dollars, when you see people all day every day? There are just alot of loopholes here. JMHO.

I have been thinking about this too. The selling point for me is that they did find Judy's wedding rings at the murder site. How else would her wedding rings get there if it is her? However, I think it would be useful to extract Judy's remains and perform DNA testing just to confirm it is her.

I am always weary of eyewitness accounts. People see someone who resembles this person and all the sudden the are certain it is them.....
I think the eyewitness account from the x-mas store seems pretty solid though. The woman was able to recall that 'Judy' told her she was from Boston, on vacation with her husband who was at a conference, she was carrying a red backpack just like the one Judy had. I can see being able to identify Judy easily if you worked in a boutique store and had a conversation with her.

Protocols for renting cars may have been much different in '97. Now you HAVE to give them a credit card for collateral basically. She could have just paid cash for the car but what happened to it? The gray sedan just disappeared? Her body is found but no car? I don't know. I am beginning to think the woman in the gray sedan is a case of mistaken identity.

From what I have heard from families who have had cases on Unsolved Mysteries - they have a habit of not getting info exactly right. The producers may have just been totally wrong about it being their honeymoon. Thank you HMG for confirming you saw it too!

 

[hmg]

Interesting how "the honeymoon" isn't mentioned in the interview, though.

I keep rereading the articles of what Jeffrey says, trying to read between the lines.

Yes, I thought that was odd too. Perhaps UM made a mistake? It was only briefly mentioned at the beginning of the UM segment but I remember thinking it was odd because who combines their honeymoon and business conference together?

 

[shadowangel]

It's interesting that she left her photo ID behind...Could she have arranged that, in order to travel with someone else (or to arrive at a different time than her husband?)

Could she have met up with someone and "ran away?" I'm sure LE would be looking for any information on a male travelling companion, but what if her companion wasnt male? Would people be as likely to notice Judy with, or in the company of, another woman?

The only indication that I could find in any articles that she may have been murdered were a few tears in her clothing that may have come from stabbing. What if she wasn't murdered? What if she were hiking with someone, someone who wanted to remain forever anonymous, and died of natural causes? What if the person couldnt carry Judy to a more populous location, and decided to bury here there as best he or she could, with all her possessions?

Just throwing out some thoughts. For what its worth, I found news articles from PA papers that stated Judy was 5'2, 140 pounds.

 

[Laura_Bean]

okay quick question ::: if Judy wasn't dragged up the mountain, well I think the simplest answer is usually the right answer. She probably went up there of her own accord, and than was either killed... or could it be an accident? Like if she fell, and than for some reason someone covered it up?

 

[Laura_Bean]

Also women usually don't leave without their loved items. Unless Judy thought her new husband was planning to kill her or something, she probably would have taken things like rings, necklaces, photographs, etc. Women have a soft spot for personal belongings. Her purse, her jewelery, her photos, etc would have been taken unless she left in a big hurry and her husband was the reason she had to leave in a big hurry.

 

[Laura_Bean]

could he have gone to philly with someone other than his wife? if they got into a fight of some sort, and he took some other woman, telling his wife he was going alone because he had to do the work thing...

 

[Debbie Miller]

I wondered about the possibility that Judith got a rental car in Philly. That would be the logical way for a "runaway wife" to get to NC to do a little hiking. Surley an unreturned rental car would come to the husband's attention. My understanding is that when a rental car in unreturned, the rental company will report it as stolen quite quckly so that it will turn up on a national stsolen car list. That way they will be able to recover it when to come to the attention of LE. (usually it is found abandoned). At that point, the rental co is concerned about recovering damages. If the limits of the credit card will cover the full cost, they will probably just bill the card. Otherwise they will utlize their on ivestigators and local police and attempt to procecute the rentor (and hopefuylly use the threat of prosecution as leverage to obtain payment). You would expect this to come to Jeffery's attention real fast: heafty charges to their credit cards, inquries from investigators or police, demand leters from the rental co etc. The only exception to this would be if Judith had a "secret" credit card, say in her maiden name, at a PO box and took serious efforts to hide it from Jeffery. This is not that unusual. particularly in a "tenuous" marriage. It is possible that a rental car/credit card debt in Judith's name would never be traced back to Jeffery. I wonder if that possibility has been explored?

I would hope this possibility was explored being that they also had separate phone lines at their house. Unfortunately, we don't know what all the police did and in the articles they didn't even talk about steps taken to check out the grey sedan. This is just strange how this happened.

 

[kemo]

I am convinced that Judith made it to Philly alive and took off on her own. That leaves three possibilities that I can think of:
1) She set off on Public transportation and met a "stranger" who offered to take her hiking in a special spot in NC,
2) She arranged to take off with a "friend" to a hiking adventure in NC,
3) She rented a car and drove to NC to do some hiking and had an encounter with a killer.

I really can't think of any other senerios that fit. All three options seen implausible but not impossible. I'm thinking #3. Any ideas?

 

[Debbie Miller]

The points that take this toward Judy leaving of her own free will would be for me: Leaving her DL behind only to have that excuse not to fly out with Jeffrey.
Judy is an experienced traveler, so I think the DL is something she would have doublechecked before leaving for the airport. With the reference statement- "As she had several times before, Judy decided to join Jeff for this year's Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference meeting, held in the Doubletree Hotel." I would take it that she is an experienced traveler and wouldn't "forget" her DL. Although, it is possible she did infact forget.

Scenerio - Jeffrey and Judy pack up and go to airport, Judy realizes she forgot her license and lets her luggage go on Jeffrey's flight and she goes back home to retrieve her license. Therefore, her luggage makes it's destination to the doubletree hotel with Jeffrey. Could explain why it was noted that there was no sign of a woman in the room by the one detective/or officer.

Judy then takes off with plans of her own- never going to Philly? But the plane ticket and others seeing her discredits this idea.

Wouldn't she have had to talk with the airline agents about making her flight later? I have never flown and don't really travel except by car, so I am not sure of the procedure.

 

[Debbie Miller]

If she did leave of her own free will, not wanting to be found by Jeffrey, then I can imagine her going to NC. She had seen a part of the state years prior and enjoyed the atmosphere and Jeffrey wouldn't think to look for her there. But if she planned this disappearance why leave her two children in the dark as to her whereabouts? her plans?

 

[Debbie Miller]

The deceased was said to have "bad arthritis" in the right knee, would someone want to do all that climbing with such an ailment?

The way it is described as "bad" I would think "painful" all the time.

 

[kemo]

Debbie Miller
Normally you purchase your ticket in advance; first go to the "check in counter" where you check your luggage and obtain your boarding pass. You then go to the boarding area. To enter the boarding area, you must pass through the security check where your i.d., boarding pass and all carry-ons are screened (you also pass through a metal detector).

At that point, if you were unable to board, missed youir flight, or changed your mind, you would have to return to the check-in counter to make other arrangements. If there is a later flight with available seats (at the last flight of the day to major destimations usually has empty seats) the airling will normally accomodate. The airline would probably just let the checked luggage go through.

You are required to show picture i.d. at the security check. In 2003, I flew with my 20 year old son who forgot his. They put us through a "rigorous" check, asked a lot of questions, but did let him board. This makes me suspect that Judith was not actually denied entery to the plane, she just "assumed" she would be denied entry. (this is consistant with Jeffery's" statement "Judy realized she'd left her driver's license at home"). I find this a little odd that they didn't at least try to work something out like my kid did, him being a lawyer and all. Obviously we don't have all the facts but it seems like she gave up a little to quick. That why I suspect this was a rouse on her part to take a later flight.

The Cityview article suggest that she obtained a ticket for the 7:30 flight, someone made it through security with her i.d. and sat in her assigned seat, and someone, apparently a DR, recognized her from the flight. Assuming the facts of the article are essentially cort, I must conclude that Judith was on the flight and did make it to Philly that night.

At some point after that, she embarked on her fatal trip to NC but her husband clearly remained in Philly. I don't see where he could have participated in her death. The investigation must be directed at how she got to NC and who did she encounter on the way. It looks like, by effectivly concealing this trip from not only her husband but her friends and family, she has covered up her tracts for Law Enforcement.

 

[gaia227]

The points that take this toward Judy leaving of her own free will would be for me: Leaving her DL behind only to have that excuse not to fly out with Jeffrey.
Judy is an experienced traveler, so I think the DL is something she would have doublechecked before leaving for the airport. With the reference statement- "As she had several times before, Judy decided to join Jeff for this year's Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference meeting, held in the Doubletree Hotel." I would take it that she is an experienced traveler and wouldn't "forget" her DL. Although, it is possible she did infact forget.

Scenerio - Jeffrey and Judy pack up and go to airport, Judy realizes she forgot her license and lets her luggage go on Jeffrey's flight and she goes back home to retrieve her license. Therefore, her luggage makes it's destination to the doubletree hotel with Jeffrey. Could explain why it was noted that there was no sign of a woman in the room by the one detective/or officer.

Judy then takes off with plans of her own- never going to Philly? But the plane ticket and others seeing her discredits this idea.

Wouldn't she have had to talk with the airline agents about making her flight later? I have never flown and don't really travel except by car, so I am not sure of the procedure.

Yes, she would have had to talk to a ticket agent about getting her flight switched. They would have issued her a new ticket. I think she was on the flight. The ticket was used and someone was in her seat and most likely it was her. If her flight left at 7:30 it was probably 10:00pm or later by the time she got to the hotel and got settled. Maybe she was just too tired to unpack that night and decided she would just wear the same clothes she traveled in - after all she was going sight-seeing and wanted to be comfy. According to Jeff and her children Judy didn't really wear make-up and wasn't real 'girly' when it came to stuff like that. She might not have even bothered to bring make-up or if she did she didn't use any that morning. She could have used the hotel shampoo and soap instead of her own, if she even brought any.

Jeff said Judy had brought him flowers. Were there flowers in the room when LE got there? Did they visit the florist to see if she was there or if they had surveillance?

If we could get an email address for Judy's daughter I would email her and ask her to join the thread or at least let her know it is here and people are thinking about her mother.

Regarding arthritis - good point. I don't know what to say to that. Doesn't arthritis flare up and then subside? Perhaps she was taking medication for it and the pain had subsided enough she was able to go hiking around. It has never been that clear to me just how far into the woods she was found. Was it really that much of a hike? Are there horse trails in the area? Maybe she had rented a horse for a ride. I just don't know. :waitasec:

 

[shadowangel]

One of the articles I read included in her description that she had a scar on one of her knees...I'm assuming from some type of surgery. I also read that she was found on a slope, so I'm thinking her death was accidental. Maybe she was partially buried later, by some type of earth movement--like a slide..?
I'll post the article links later, when I have the time to find them again.

 

[Rhett]

Yeah, but . . . . What woman doesn't have her drivers license in her purse or wallet? I mean I have mine all of the time and I certainly wouldn't leave for a trip without my purse or wallet. It just seems like a flimsy excuse.

The points that take this toward Judy leaving of her own free will would be for me: Leaving her DL behind only to have that excuse not to fly out with Jeffrey.
Judy is an experienced traveler, so I think the DL is something she would have doublechecked before leaving for the airport. With the reference statement- "As she had several times before, Judy decided to join Jeff for this year's Northeast Pharmaceutical Conference meeting, held in the Doubletree Hotel." I would take it that she is an experienced traveler and wouldn't "forget" her DL. Although, it is possible she did infact forget.

 

[kemo]

The article described a "partially buried skeleton" with a blue shirt "buried nearby". I don't think there is much doubt that this was a murder. "Buried" means "murdered" "Buried" is quite a bit different from "covered with" dirt or rocks. We have to give the ivestigators a little credit.

She may have had some arthritis but she was dressed for hiking.

I wonder if it was ever established if the clothes, including the hiking boots she was wearing, came from home or if she purchased them during her "journey".

 

[Stella]

I have an arthritic knee. Sometimes it hurts so badly that it takes forever to climb the stairs. Then I'll go months without a flare-up. It can be an unpredictable affliction.

 

[Debbie Miller]

It seems this case has alot of information missing and mostlikely because it is an ongoing investigation.

I am undecided with Jeffrey due to his smart comment " There happy now? Or would you rather I sob uncontrollably as well?" and his statement of the relationship with Judy, "we grew to love each other, I guess."

It sounds as if they just married to do it. It could be the way it is coming across.

He did do alot to try and find her. After rereading the articles again and again it could be that Jeffrey has put suspicion on himself not because he is responsible for her death, but because the marriage was failing and he is embarrassed to talk about it, therefore he is hiding the fact.

 

[txsvicki]

I've had a few bouts or flares of arthritis in one my knees. I'd like to add that even though I haven't had any pain for a long time or even had any surgeries, there's no way I could wear heavy hiking boots. It would make my knees hurt.

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Yeah, but . . . . What woman doesn't have her drivers license in her purse or wallet? I mean I have mine all of the time and I certainly wouldn't leave for a trip without my purse or wallet. It just seems like a flimsy excuse.

Me. Mine is missing right now (and has been for a couple of weeks). I took it out of my wallet one day cause I needed to give someone my DL # and apparently didn't put it back. Right now, I can't imagine what I did with it - it isn't on my desk, (where I was when I got it out. I keep my handbag in a cubby under my desk) that I can find. I am giving myself another week or so before I call it lost and get a replacement (the lines at the DMV, OMG!) and I know as soon as I do replace it I will find it. But, then I seldom drive, so I don't really need it right now. And, I didn't realize it was missing until I needed it to cash a check - that was a while after I last recall using it.

So anyway, I can see someone not having theirs. LOL