PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[SeekingJana]

Thank you for the work done on this. :loveyou:

So it appears that he was planning for Lara, but not for his own life, right?
He was not oollldddd. ( I used to think that was old, now, not so much). He was 59, yet as far as we can tell from financials, had no personal interest-bearing accounts. He roughly could reasonably expect to live at least 2 more decades with the U.S life expectancy figured into the equation. He was, by all accounts, a reasonable and prudent person who planned meticulously.

For a man with little to NO reportable debt, and with a 6 figure income for quite a few years, I cannot see any feasible reason not to plan for the rest of his expected long life.

Might anyone else look at this and see otherwise?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here are the contribution limits for various retirement accounts in the early 2000's http://www.kelan.net/cpanet/2002_contribution_limits.htm

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you for the work done on this. :loveyou:

So it appears that he was planning for Lara, but not for his own life, right?
He was not oollldddd. ( I used to think that was old, now, not so much). He was 59, yet as far as we can tell from financials, had no personal interest-bearing accounts. He roughly could reasonably expect to live at least 2 more decades with the U.S life expectancy figured into the equation. He was, by all accounts, a reasonable and prudent person who planned meticulously.

RFG reported no single source interest of more than $1300. If he had several bank accounts in one bank, a CD, a savings account, a checking account, at one bank, and the bank paid him $1250 on the CD and $75 on the savings, the bank would have to be reported as a source of income.

For a man with little to NO reportable debt, and with a 6 figure income for quite a few years, I cannot see any feasible reason not to plan for the rest of his expected long life.

Might anyone else look at this and see otherwise?

RFG would have been required to report any debt over $6,500 other than debt associated with a mortgage, but LG could not have used the process she did if there was any property.

I'd welcome those more experienced with retirement funds looking at this.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Two types of assets that would not show up on the Financial Disclosure Statements, and could be used for retirement (as opposed to estate planning).

1. US Savings bonds, possibly some Treasury Bonds, bonds that get a value upon maturity (possibly like municipal bonds).

2. Precious metals, gold, et c.

The problem with the first one is that there is a massive paper trail. Further, it certainly would not be embarrassing to note that RFG did what millions of Americans did and **put his money into savings bonds for retirement.** Why not just say it and remove the questions? It's a safe investment and a bit patriotic. Buying a municipal bond or a state bond wouldn't be embarrassing either.

That could be a joint asset and wouldn't go into probate.

The second, which would have been a great investment, might not have been a joint asset and would have been in probate. Again, since the questions were around since 2006, why not just announce it, without a dollar amount?

 

[SeekingJana]

I think all of us have bought US Savings Bonds of some sort at some point. Sure, it's a fine way to save money if the money isn't needed for a decade or two. Relatives bought them for me for gifts for all my childhood. Not sure I would invest in our government in the 21st century but I understand what you're saying.

I am friends with a couple who save gold bars and some type of gold coinage. They have a huge vault built into their house for the purpose. The gold is extremely bulky and as you know, gold is heavy. The theory of living off gold if the economy tanks ( completely) is a nice one, but in practice it would be very cumbersome and a nuisance. I think my friends do it mostly to show off, because they are extremely wealthy without their " stash".

I see the drawbacks and the plusses to each form of saving. I think the reporting is an issue with the gold.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I do keep an eye on the medals markets. You can get an idea of the price shift here: http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx

200 Troy ounces at $300/T oz would be $60,000; that would be around the market price in the early 2000's. It would weight just under 14 standard pounds. It would be about 20 cubic inches (2" wide, 1" high, 20" long), or a bit less. That could easily fit into a safe deposit box.

Those gold bars that you see photos from Ft. Knox are about twice that size, 400/T oz. http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/fun_facts/?action=fun_facts13

The same amount of gold would have been worth between about $240 k and $340 k in 2011, when the market peaked.

It's possible, but I would expect that to pass through probate.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A very aggressive investment portfolio could account for this as well. A lot of funds in stocks. The problem is, RFG would have to be putting a lot into it.

The problems are:

1. It is easily traceable.

2. He wasn't known to be investing in the stock market.

3. It really isn't a good financial plan a year out from retirement.

 

[SeekingJana]

Stock market has been way too volatile in all of the 21st century for that to be a reliable place to invest much money, if one wanted to see a good steady return. IF he started investing in the late 90's, I think he would have gotten his money out shortly after 9/11 at least.

Also, film footage exists on I.D.'s " Disappeared" segment on Ray Gricar where Steve Sloane says stocks and investments were like speaking Chinese to Mr. Gricar.
I don't think he would hand over potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars (several years' worth of savings) to an investment banker. A person who is known by friends to not trust DOCTORS and the medical community is certainly not likely to trust their future in the hands of a STOCK BROKER are they? I'd not think so.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Stock market has been way too volatile in all of the 21st century for that to be a reliable place to invest much money, if one wanted to see a good steady return. IF he started investing in the late 90's, I think he would have gotten his money out shortly after 9/11 at least.

Also, film footage exists on I.D.'s " Disappeared" segment on Ray Gricar where Steve Sloane says stocks and investments were like speaking Chinese to Mr. Gricar.
I don't think he would hand over potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars (several years' worth of savings) to an investment banker. A person who is known by friends to not trust DOCTORS and the medical community is certainly not likely to trust their future in the hands of a STOCK BROKER are they? I'd not think so.

RFG could be secretive about things, as can be seen from the article announcing his retirement; he might have kept it quiet. While I think it would be unlikely for stock market investments, it would not be impossible. However, a guy planning to retire might decide to take his profits.

Again, if RFG had his money in the stock market, or in government securities, why the secrecy? Just say it. There is nothing dishonorable about preparing for retirement.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

For reference, I am re-posting the current version of Statement of Financial Interest form's instructions. The statute requiring public officials reporting has not changed since 2004.

http://www.phila.gov/ethicsboard/PDF/SEC1 Statement Of Financial Iterests Form Rev 01_131.pdf

 

[SeekingJana]

Did the Financial Disclosure directions or amounts employees were required to disclose change in 2004, or is it that this is the year you have on hand?
Also, is it or was it possible to obtain documentation for years other than 2004 and 2005? If they were the same, all " none", then no reason to explore any deeper, but I've wondered about other years' reporting, specifically 1998- 2003.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did the Financial Disclosure directions or amounts employees were required to disclose change in 2004, or is it that this is the year you have on hand?
Also, is it or was it possible to obtain documentation for years other than 2004 and 2005? If they were the same, all " none", then no reason to explore any deeper, but I've wondered about other years' reporting, specifically 1998- 2003.

The county no longer had them on file. I had requested form covering the years 1997-2005, which were the full years RFG went full time. The State Ethics Commission online database didn't have anything, but the last year that RFG would have had to file with them was 2001.

At one point, as of the 1990's, it was as low as $600. I think that the amount was set by statute and the financial disclosure section had not been amended after 2003. I think the amount was set by statute in 1998, but I'm not sure.

 

[SeekingJana]

I suppose we are lucky that they held onto 2004 and 2005 documents.

Thank you for the explanation. I had wondered about the other years.

 

[SeekingJana]

I consider this article to be in almost the same category as " Missed Leads" for me, personally. Maybe not for others. I can only speak for myself. If anyone is interested in some of the " other women" in Ray Gricar's past, this article talks about 3 of them, and has an interview with one.
This is journalist's Sarah Ganim's interview with several people close to Mr. Gricar and some small details which are not easily available elsewhere. It is not a blog post, it is investigative journalism, and was originally published in "The Patriot News" newspaper. This is a screen capture grab from Pennlive, which is a division of The Patriot News.
http://archive.is/RpbpE

 

[SuperSmith]

I do not find it overly secretive of Mr. Gricar to not indicate, for the public's sake, what his investments or his financial retirement plans (if any) were.

I don't know of a whole lot of people that do discuss something so personal openly unless they want to brag about it.

As Lara indicated "That is no ones business".

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/We_Are_Penn_State/conversations/topics/80495

"He was making a fair amount of money; but, at least from a forensic accounting standpoint, the thought is there that there should have been more cash," he said. "But, for somebody from his generation, which [preferred to] deal in cash, what is the appropriate amount that should be sitting in an account?"

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/25/case-of-missing-pa-district-attorney-ray-gricar-baffles-police/

 

[Trackergd]

RFG could be secretive about things, as can be seen from the article announcing his retirement; he might have kept it quiet. While I think it would be unlikely for stock market investments, it would not be impossible. However, a guy planning to retire might decide to take his profits.

Again, if RFG had his money in the stock market, or in government securities, why the secrecy? Just say it. There is nothing dishonorable about preparing for retirement.

I'm still stuck on the document showing the petition to keep the tax return private. What could be that private one might ask.... I would "assume" that the settlement of small estate clearly shows that there were no assets or large sums of money. The tax return might have shown investments. I am unsure why it was felt necessary to keep it private since he was ruled deceased.

Something is not adding up. More of a 6th sense thing.....

 

[SeekingJana]

I agree with you TrackerGD. If there were assets, then Lara has them and who cares? I know I certainly do not care what she has or doesn't have. I care from whence it came if it is there- what did Ray leave or not leave?
I tend to think someone's protecting the lack of assets shown for a salary of around $125,000/ annually.

 

[SuperSmith]

I'm still stuck on the document showing the petition to keep the tax return private. What could be that private one might ask.... I would "assume" that the settlement of small estate clearly shows that there were no assets or large sums of money. The tax return might have shown investments. I am unsure why it was felt necessary to keep it private since he was ruled deceased.

Something is not adding up. More of a 6th sense thing.....

It has occurred to me that she might very well be protecting herself and her privacy since she was about to inherit a great deal of money. (Over 100k in the bank, her fathers 2005 salary (100K +), and his considerable pension.

It may be as simple as that.

Protecting herself as the well documented sole heir of a considerable amount of money in my opinion is doing diligence. Money can make you a target.

BTW, welcome back Tracker. Glad your trip was a safe one.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm still stuck on the document showing the petition to keep the tax return private. What could be that private one might ask.... I would "assume" that the settlement of small estate clearly shows that there were no assets or large sums of money. The tax return might have shown investments. I am unsure why it was felt necessary to keep it private since he was ruled deceased.

Something is not adding up. More of a 6th sense thing.....

Joint accounts would not be included in probate.

The tax return should have shown those.

I can understand LG not wanting to broadcast how much money she got from the estate.

I cannot understand the various comments from the family, and LE, if RFG was preparing financially to retire.

The FDS forms would show if RFG had assents generating $1300 from a single source. Okay, if he had this in deferred accounts, why not just announce that it was in retirement accounts?

PS: I hope the trip was enjoyable.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It has occurred to me that she might very well be protecting herself and her privacy since she was about to inherit a great deal of money. (Over 100k in the bank, her fathers 2005 salary (100K +), and his considerable pension.

It may be as simple as that.

Protecting herself as the well documented sole heir of a considerable amount of money in my opinion is doing diligence. Money can make you a target.

BTW, welcome back Tracker. Glad your trip was a safe one.

Yes, but why wouldn't the interest generated from that money be captured on the Financial Disclosure Statements? If there was a huge amount of money out there, why wasn't it generating interest?