PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4

[SeekingJana]

You can believe what you want. I don't believe he is...in spite of the lack of evidence either way. And if he isn't alive...someone got away with murder which disturbs me more than people writing him off as some nutjob that walked away knowingly. I won't believe it until they can prove it to me. I respect Ray far more than that. (Don't forget Steve F. and what people said about him. I believe they found his body and his plane...but we will have to wait on forensic tests to verify.)

OK, people have different opinions. BUT, stating them does not make the object of the opinion either a " Sleazebag" as you wrote about Steve Fossett if he had disappeared of his own volition or a " Nutjob" as you are now saying about an alternate theory regarding Ray Gricar.
I've posted with you for some time, and have never known you to use these terms about other poster's theories before.
I hope you will accept that there are some of us who don't go around shouting " DEAD" from the rooftops. Missing does not equal dead in my book in the absence of ANY forensic evidence to the contrary.

If there is any evidence that Ray Gricar is deceased, was abducted, was harmed, I have never read of it. Do you know of any?

 

[kemo]

This case is perplexing. The main problem withe the "walkaway" theory is that he was retirement eligible in six months and could have "left" with a dependable income. I admit that he appeared to be "living below his means" and it is likely that he had some money stashed away. If he was cleaver, he could have gotten money into an offshore account without a paper trail. He could have a stash of cash buried somewher (that would earn no interest).

Living with a bogas identity would have entailed many risks and problems. Even with a "good" social security number and other basic id. He would be limited to marginal employment opportunities. Even if he were planing this for years I can't see him socking away more than a few hundred thousand and, realistically. that isn't likely to last all that long. Most walk offs I am aware of, involved folks who either had a stash, or more likley. were walking away from a situation involving financial insecurity and legal or other serious problems. This was not Ray's situation.

One possibility that no one has considered is that Ray was found by Law Enforcement but he was not found to have broken any laws and he did not want to be found. Privacy laws would prevent LE from disclosing any information but they would obviously drop the investigation. This case is pretty high profile and I would expect something to "leak" but this senario is actually a very common resolution of missing person cases/

 

[SeekingJana]

This case is perplexing. The main problem withe the "walkaway" theory is that he was retirement eligible in six months and could have "left" with a dependable income. I admit that he appeared to be "living below his means" and it is likely that he had some money stashed away. If he was cleaver, he could have gotten money into an offshore account without a paper trail. He could have a stash of cash buried somewher (that would earn no interest).

Living with a bogas identity would have entailed many risks and problems. Even with a "good" social security number and other basic id. He would be limited to marginal employment opportunities. Even if he were planing this for years I can't see him socking away more than a few hundred thousand and, realistically. that isn't likely to last all that long. Most walk offs I am aware of, involved folks who either had a stash, or more likley. were walking away from a situation involving financial insecurity and legal or other serious problems. This was not Ray's situation.

One possibility that no one has considered is that Ray was found by Law Enforcement but he was not found to have broken any laws and he did not want to be found. Privacy laws would prevent LE from disclosing any information but they would obviously drop the investigation. This case is pretty high profile and I would expect something to "leak" but this senario is actually a very common resolution of missing person cases/

Kemo, you're right. People do walk away from their lives, and LE does find them, and keeps the info confidential. It is not a crime to leave one's life behind for whatever reason. It IS a crime when deliberate misinformation is left behind, such as a fake suicide note or faked evidence of a kidnapping.

One thing you did not address was the possibility that he did not leave to be alone. That a person out of the spotlight has substantial income and means, and is a partner in Ray's walk away and subsequent life. We don't know, but it is possible.

I find it more credible to walk away right before retirement eligibility than to wait if financials were not a consideration. If he did walk away, then your argument against his doing so just before retirement is what most people are thinking. Why would he leave just before retirement set in? Because the looming retirement, uncollected, is in itself a cloak.
Mr. Gricar probably handled many missing persons cases and knew of them incidentally. He would have known what to do to and how to do it regarding bank funds, ID, SS#, etc.

There are several aspects of the specifics of Mr. Gricar's life at the time of his disappearance which lead me to believe that a walk away is possible. I agree that LE should search if they don't know what happened to him, and that we should hope for the best always. But, if LE does know what happened to him and that he is safe, they are doing the right thing in keeping his confidence.

IMO, the unfortunate people who want to leave are those with high profile positions in life which attract media attention with their leaving.
Until just recently with the turmoil in the world financial markets, a person could live quite well, with minimal or faked ID, and in very lush surroundings in most parts of Central America, Costa Rica being the prime spot for voluntary walk aways.

Mostly, I believe that people have a basic right to live their own life exactly how they want to as long as they are not intending to commit a crime through their leave- taking. I also believe that many people live lives of quiet desperation because they lack the courage to walk away from a life that is lacking and pursue their passions, whatever and whoever those passions may be.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The real question is, how much money could Mr. Gricar have sequestered, if, in fact he did.

This was a guy who was grossing more than $100 K per year since his last divorce. There could be a lot of money unaccounted for.

Also, there might be tax implications. If he had a Cayman Islands account, for example, the interest is taxable, but the IRS has no way to check it. He could have had a substantial piece of change out there with no reporting to the IRS.

This is one of those, we don't know situations. We do know that the Mini Cooper was put in Ms. Fornicola's name so that it would be protected in case he was sued. Problem is, the county carried liability insurance on him, if he were sued as a result of some official actions.

That is odd, however.

Further, his daughter collects the retirement, if Mr. Gricar is declared dead.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You can believe what you want. I don't believe he is...in spite of the lack of evidence either way. And if he isn't alive...someone got away with murder which disturbs me more than people writing him off as some nutjob that walked away knowingly. I won't believe it until they can prove it to me. I respect Ray far more than that. (Don't forget Steve F. and what people said about him. I believe they found his body and his plane...but we will have to wait on forensic tests to verify.)

I think you make a very big mistake when you assume that people who voluntarily leave are "nutjobs."

If Mr. Gricar walked away, it was a result a long term plan, not an impulsive act planned on 4/15/05 or even weeks before. The interested in destroying the data on the drive has now been discovered to have been months, if not years, prior to Mr. Gricar's disappearance. IF that was part of a plan to walk away, that shows the long term planning Mr. Gricar did to pull this off. "Nutjob" would not be a word I'd use to describe it; the word I'd use is "brilliant."

 

[SeekingJana]

You know the case facts to the letter. How long had Ray owned/ driven the Mini Cooper and do you happen to know what make or model his prior car or cars were?

I know that he was an antique car buff, but I don't have access to any info about his prior autos. There is a case reason for the question. Thanks.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You know the case facts to the letter. How long had Ray owned/ driven the Mini Cooper and do you happen to know what make or model his prior car or cars were?

I know that he was an antique car buff, but I don't have access to any info about his prior autos. There is a case reason for the question. Thanks.

Tony Gricar remembers driving the Mini in July of 2004 and it was a 2004, so it would have been between September 2003 and July 2004. It wasn't a "recent purchase" at the time he disappeared.

Tony indicated that the other car was somewhat flashy (my term), which could mean either flashy looking, expensive, or fast. I don't know the disposition of it, but I'm guessing it was sold, possibly as a trade-in. The Gricar family produced some race car drivers, so Ray Gricar did have an interest in cars. Tony described him as a "motorhead" at one point.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

IMO, the unfortunate people who want to leave are those with high profile positions in life which attract media attention with their leaving.
Until just recently with the turmoil in the world financial markets, a person could live quite well, with minimal or faked ID, and in very lush surroundings in most parts of Central America, Costa Rica being the prime spot for voluntary walk aways.

Mr. Gricar had family in Slovenia and visited them in prior years. I'm told that photos of his Slovenian relations were among those on his office wall and that Mr. Gricar expressed an interest in seeing them again.

Mostly, I believe that people have a basic right to live their own life exactly how they want to as long as they are not intending to commit a crime through their leave- taking. I also believe that many people live lives of quiet desperation because they lack the courage to walk away from a life that is lacking and pursue their passions, whatever and whoever those passions may be.

I won't say quiet desperation, but if Mr. Gricar walked away, he just showed everyone how he could outsmart a sizable number of police forces in Pennsylvania.

If I were reasonably sure he did walkaway, I'd say "Ray Gricar, I salute you. You're a smarter guy than I am. Good luck on your new life," and stop posting.

 

[kemo]

The most common way to "walkaway" is to simply pack your pocessions in your car and drive to another town without telling anyone of your plans. It happens all the time. If you want to put past associations behind and start a new life, this is all it takes. Friends and family will generally get the hint and not try that hard to find you, If they do, you can tell them to "bugger off". Fakeing a death, establishing a new identity and setting up red herrings to throw off any pursuers are really only necessary if there is a serious problem you are running away from. Legal problems, debt and child support are common reasons. People really will try to track you down and will not just leave you alone. Ray's situation seems to have been the former, not the later.

If he just waited until his retirement, he could have just "left" without a forwarding address and not attracted much attention. I believe there is a good chance he was squirelling away money but his pension would probably equaled at least half his salary. This is a lot to walk away from. True, by forfiting the pension, he would be making a convincing case that he is "dead", but he would be sacraficing a lot of security and comfort. I'm having a hard time buying it.

The way he registered the mini suggests he was up to something. The "fear of lawsuits" excuse was false. A more likely reason would be to allow Fornicola to "inherit" it without problems if something were to happen to him. This came in particularly handy in this "missing body situation" where there would be no probate until he was declaired legally dead.. It is just a little "too handy". I think this likelyhood of "premeditation" along with the lackof any obvious motive makes it improbable that Ray was a victim of a murder of abduction.

I do think there is a chance that Ray went somewhere to commit sucide in a manner that his body would not be found. This might be more commen than people realize. If you go over some of the missing person cases in The Doe network, you will find many of the missing, particularly men are described as being "depressed" or "despondant". Ray had no "known" history of depression nor did he appear "despondant". There did not appear to be any overwhelming problems in his life. Still it happens.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The way he registered the mini suggests he was up to something. The "fear of lawsuits" excuse was false. A more likely reason would be to allow Fornicola to "inherit" it without problems if something were to happen to him.

Ms. Fornicola doesn't inherit. His daughter does.

This came in particularly handy in this "missing body situation" where there would be no probate until he was declaired legally dead.. It is just a little "too handy". I think this likelyhood of "premeditation" along with the lackof any obvious motive makes it improbable that Ray was a victim of a murder of abduction.

No motive that we know of. Somebody out there might have had one.

 

[SeekingJana]

The most common way to "walkaway" is to simply pack your pocessions in your car and drive to another town without telling anyone of your plans. It happens all the time. If you want to put past associations behind and start a new life, this is all it takes. Friends and family will generally get the hint and not try that hard to find you, If they do, you can tell them to "bugger off". Fakeing a death, establishing a new identity and setting up red herrings to throw off any pursuers are really only necessary if there is a serious problem you are running away from. Legal problems, debt and child support are common reasons. People really will try to track you down and will not just leave you alone. Ray's situation seems to have been the former, not the later.

If he just waited until his retirement, he could have just "left" without a forwarding address and not attracted much attention. I believe there is a good chance he was squirelling away money but his pension would probably equaled at least half his salary. This is a lot to walk away from. True, by forfiting the pension, he would be making a convincing case that he is "dead", but he would be sacraficing a lot of security and comfort. I'm having a hard time buying it.

The way he registered the mini suggests he was up to something. The "fear of lawsuits" excuse was false. A more likely reason would be to allow Fornicola to "inherit" it without problems if something were to happen to him. This came in particularly handy in this "missing body situation" where there would be no probate until he was declaired legally dead.. It is just a little "too handy". I think this likelyhood of "premeditation" along with the lackof any obvious motive makes it improbable that Ray was a victim of a murder of abduction.

I do think there is a chance that Ray went somewhere to commit sucide in a manner that his body would not be found. This might be more commen than people realize. If you go over some of the missing person cases in The Doe network, you will find many of the missing, particularly men are described as being "depressed" or "despondant". Ray had no "known" history of depression nor did he appear "despondant". There did not appear to be any overwhelming problems in his life. Still it happens.

Really good post, Kemo.
The way I see it, even if there was no threat to Mr. Gricar's safety and he decided to disappear, he was the DA. He worked with.... LE, Attorneys, and other DAs. Maybe to coin a phrase: " the long arm of the law" at work?
IF those closest to him, one of whom also worked in the same courthouse, wanted him found and if he had taken his car, or used his SS# or credit cards or cell phone, then he was not " disappeared" any longer, he was " found" and there were probably some very upset people waiting for him.

I think there is a chance that Ray tested the walkaway prior to leaving. There was some reason for people to be so concerned with his going to a ballgame unannounced and to be unaccounted for during a period of a few hours before his disapparance. They had LE looking for him at that time, whilw it was certainly not an alarming thing for an adult male to do. It almost sounds to me like he was under someone's thumb and finally slid right out from under it.

I respect him greatly, and hope very much that he is alive. I do not know, none of us know, but there is nothing to suggest foul play at this time.
At first, I was certain he was dead. As time has gone by and no body has been found, and I have gotten a clearer picture of the situation, I do have some cause to wonder if he is alive. I certainly hope that he is, anyway.

 

[SeekingJana]

Tony Gricar remembers driving the Mini in July of 2004 and it was a 2004, so it would have been between September 2003 and July 2004. It wasn't a "recent purchase" at the time he disappeared.

Tony indicated that the other car was somewhat flashy (my term), which could mean either flashy looking, expensive, or fast. I don't know the disposition of it, but I'm guessing it was sold, possibly as a trade-in. The Gricar family produced some race car drivers, so Ray Gricar did have an interest in cars. Tony described him as a "motorhead" at one point.

Thank you. I have never thought the car suited his DA " suit" type of employment. It seemed to be perhaps a " stand out purchase", one made with deliberation. Maybe a mid-life crisis, or maybe so the car would easily be seen where it was found in Lewisville. But, from your answers, it seems that Mr. Gricar liked lovely, bright cars.
This household shares his passion.
Thank you so much for the info.

Maria

 

[J. J. in Phila]

SeekingJana, the "ball game" trip occurred 5-6 years prior to Mr. Gricar's disappearance, while he still married to the second Mrs. Gricar. A lot of circumstances changed between the two.

Thank you. I have never thought the car suited his DA " suit" type of employment. It seemed to be perhaps a " stand out purchase", one made with deliberation. Maybe a mid-life crisis, or maybe so the car would easily be seen where it was found in Lewisville. But, from your answers, it seems that Mr. Gricar liked lovely, bright cars.
This household shares his passion.
Thank you so much for the info.

Maria

That was my first thought, a midlife crisis. A young girlfriend and a flashy red sportscar.

However, the second Mrs. Gricar was a blond who liked to go out to dance and was outgoing. Ms. Fornicola, while younger, is not exactly a supermodel type and a bit of a homebody, from most descriptions. She lives in the house in which she grew up, and as far as I can tell, really has never lived outside of Centre County.

I'm told a Mini isn't really a sportscar and, from Tony's description, was less flashy or fast, than his previous car.

It really doesn't look like a mid-life crisis.

 

[christine2448]

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