PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[cloudbuster05]

I think sometimes we think we know someone, but we actually don't. I always pegged Mr. Gricar for a suicide -- but -- I think his body would have been found by now. My second theory was that he may have met someone online who he thought he could trust -- then met with foul play. The walk away theory always seemed the most unlikely -- til I got to thinking about it. We wouldn't necessarily be able to discern a motive for Mr. Gricar if he chose to get away from it all. I just did a search on "how to disappear" and "why do people disappear," etc. Lots to think about. Was Mr. G. an open book? Could we really know everything that was going on in his mind? Who knows -- remember that song, "Escape?" Maybe he was sick of the "same old dull routine." Maybe he could see his "golden years" over the horizon and decided he wanted to take one last shot at something different. He is smart, handsome, apparently charming -- he could make a life for himself anywhere. Maybe he felt like the guy in "Ground Hog Day" -- or, maybe his post retirement plan just wasn't what he really wanted. Do people harbor fantasies - about other people, jobs, places -- do they keep secrets that they tell no one? If they do, then you could not necessarily fathom their motive for one day just walking out that door and never looking back

The problem is Ray's car was at the SOS, how did he secretly get to his destination? I like your charming reference. My mom also said that about Ray. I have heard that a few women did find him charming.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Living his dream? And when the reality sets in he has to go back to work for funds.

He might actually have sufficient funds. That is where the question of assets come in.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He also collected antiques and that can quickly add up. Funny thing is he never took any of those items.

The antiques are 1950's era toys and similar vintage cameras. Those are not exactly high end things.

 

[ThePhantom]

In his picture, Mr. Gricar looks charming lol. But now I hear he is described more as being an aloof and keep to himself kind of guy. Could that connote someone who is secretive and cunning? Gosh if I know. If I could truly know his personality, I could make better suppositions about him -- but even then, you know -- sometimes, you just don't really know what's going on inside someone's head. Was he sick and tired of being sick and tired? Did he work out a detailed plan to get out of dodge without being seen? Did he disguise himself in order to do so? How far would someone like Mr. G. go to just get the hell out of his old life to go anywhere except from where he came? Or was he more of a depressive sort -- passive about the direction his life was heading. Sometimes even those closest to someone can miss the chronic ennui that pervades a loved one's life. I've seen people live together and never see it coming when one walks out that door with no intention of ever coming back. Except in those cases, you knew where they went. It's all theorizing, I know. But I myself have had days where I fantasize about running away and changing my address so no one can find me. But I'm a far ways from 65 and I have too many people depending on me who I love dearly. Is it possible that Mr. Gricar felt he could leave without causing undue financial or emotional hardship on anyone?

 

[ThePhantom]

About the issue of money -- did he squirrel away money in some foreign bank account? I've seen (several) people do that -- I always thought it was very sneaky, but it worked for them. If he was a reserved person, he could have been doing many things on a regular basis, quietly, methodically, logically ... to reach a goal -- to get out. And, if he went to another country, it seems he's smart enough to earn a decent income. It's a good question, though, about his ability to obtain healthcare if he needed it, etc.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In his picture, Mr. Gricar looks charming lol. But now I hear he is described more as being an aloof and keep to himself kind of guy. Could that connote someone who is secretive and cunning?

I don't think I'd call him "cunning" personally, but I would call him "brilliant." Even as a DA, he did some innovative stuff. If it's a question of if RFG was bright enough to pull this off, the answer is yes. Certainly his LE experience would help.


It is a problem with this case; most folks were not close to him and he's an exceptionally bright guy. There is a lot he could do, but we can't tell what he did do.

 

[cloudbuster05]

As more and more time goes on it points away from Walk away, just like the suicide theory and lack of a body. In this day and age cameras are everywhere and not any have picked up Ray. Ray is well into his 60's and yet he has had no need to medical insurance. Even if he had some funds, how long is that gonna keep you? He is registered as inactive to practice law. There are alot of telling signs IMO that point toward foul play. The nephew Tony has not said anything about substanial funds missing. As far as assets JJ he left his pension and savings to do the yitchamacallit run. The mini cooper was Patty's. Ray had to have another means out of dodge. The dogs circled the mini cooper indicating Ray got into another vechicle. It was just on TV about why our gov did not tell congress about the intent to get Bin Laden. It was because nothing can stay a secret. If someone helped Ray, you can believe it would not remain a secret. If someone murdered Ray that too will surface in time. All it takes is someone to get angry at another and the roll over on procedure starts. I do not believe that alone person would be capable to carry out a foul play. It would involve more than one. The found cig ash is also a indicator. That ash was found on the passengers side and we know Ray don't smoke. Logically Ray would be on the drivers side. Milton Police had reported a tailing car report. If someone was tailing the red mini as reported it sounds like that person was acting recklessly and carelessly. That does not sound like a helper but it certainly sounds like someone(s) was trying to get the mini to pull off.

 

[ThePhantom]

Sometimes a co-conspirator won't admit to being involved because they don't want to be held accountable. After eight years, I'm still waiting for someone at St. John's University/Abbey to giving up some information about Josh's disappearance. It is thought by some that one man did it -- but that doesn't mean others in that place don't know or have a clue about it. Then again, there are many who commit crimes on their own and it takes forever to catch them (i.e. BTK). Anywho ... maybe Mr. G. had some shady dealings on the side, or a criminal who wanted some payback. But why did he drive so far away to possibly meet someone for a ride to his demise?

 

[ThePhantom]

You're right, we sure can't tell what he did do. Just like we can't tell what Steve Koecher (sp) and many others did. Wierd, isn't it, how one moment a person can be living what appears to be a regular kind of life, and the next day -- poof -- gone. But, I once was involved in a case of a missing young man. He left his university in Georgia and was supposed to be heading home to Ohio at the end of the semester. He never showed up and the FBI/Georgia Police/Private Investigators spent years looking for him. I id'd him as a john doe who had been laying in a morgue in south FLorida for 4 years. I guess all things are possible. If Mr. Gricar disappearance was really a hit, we may never find his body...which really sucks because then we'll never have an answer...just like Joshua...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Anywho ... maybe Mr. G. had some shady dealings on the side, or a criminal who wanted some payback. But why did he drive so far away to possibly meet someone for a ride to his demise?

There are two answers to that question, if he was murdered. There is one answer if he walked away.

 

[RTC]

I think some clues may fall within a time period. some questions I wonder about is did Ray always have his assets put in anothers name, if not when did that start? when did he stop using his laptop routinely? When he was using his laptop what case was he finishing up on, or working on? my reasoning for the questions is that his laptop was his only security concern, not his desk top at work or home?? All my computers are my security concerns? I think something smells off about Ray Gricar. If he is a walk away I stand by corrupt walkaway. he got some easy money and split to better his life not to live in poverty. A spy, a murder by informant gone bad, maybe suicide if he was on anti depres drugs....I think his savings of 100K is legit. He only made good money for a few years and this is about the above average savings after taxes. if he has more $ he got it illegally.

 

[RTC]

Could Ray Gricar be a sleeper agent? Could his brother been involved as well? Maybe we dont know the true story around his Bro suicide? Maybe he got pushed off the bridge....

 

[cloudbuster05]

In my theory as we all have one lol, Ray set out to meet the LMW. The place picked was because of the need to feel safe (more on her end). I believe this meeting involved the laptop, and that they was both working together on the same thing for two totally different reasons, meaning they each would have the same goal but they both had different reasons why they worked together. I also believe they worked together in the past.

I believe that after Ray purchased his hardrive erasure software he used it sometime in Jan 2005 after purchasing a new home computer. Also note Patty stepped down and took a clerk position in that Jan 2005 time frame. Her previous job was a victim/witness advocate position. In PF's former position she would have to maintain client confidentiality. Key is why did she step down? Did Ray think it was for her own good or did something happen that caused this sudden job change?

I believe after Ray erased his laptop in Jan 2005 he placed it in the upstairs closet. Then the LMW goes to Ray about something that interests him in a big way. The LMW has a problem. Her computer isn't safe to use and it's not capable as Ray's is to track what they needed. Ray is not computer savy but she is. He allows her to use the empty erased laptop to obtain the files they need.

The LMW sets a meeting to return his laptop but she either gets caught with it or is followed on 4-15-2005. She probably is unaware of being followed. She returns his laptop and leaves. The follower has his eye on Ray and knows he has the laptop in hand. At some point Ray is made to go with the follower(s). If the follower(s) had a gun and leaned into his mini on the passenger side then I can see Ray having no choice but to get into the other vechicle. Months later the laptop is separated and placed against the pier. The hardrive later surfaces in the mud along the banks (may not even be Ray's drive).

The laptop is a intended message to the mystery women to keep silent and to let her know they had all the proof that her and Ray worked on. In this scenario the follower had some kind of relationship with the LMW which was either current or in the past. This person had a lot to lose and would be violent and most likely had been violent with the LMW in some way.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Could Ray Gricar be a sleeper agent? Could his brother been involved as well? Maybe we dont know the true story around his Bro suicide? Maybe he got pushed off the bridge....

Your reading my mind about Roy's suicide In my scenario above I think thats what the LMW might have told Ray. In the centre daily times in the question and answer section now gone it was stated that Ray never believed that Roy committed suicide. Roy worked as a private contractor for Wright Patterson Air force base and was supposedly fired shortly before his life ended tragically May 96. I would look at what Ray was doing case wise before Roy's death.
In my theory above I believe the follower who has ties to LMW possibly an ex of some kind I believe has high ranks in the military. Their job may be related to military intel which would explain why use Ray's laptop and why this LMW was seen with Ray at two different antique shops. I believe the reason for meeting at antique shops is because she too frequents them. If she is afraid to meet for being followed it would not stand out for her to go to antique shops.

 

[cloudbuster05]

I think some clues may fall within a time period. some questions I wonder about is did Ray always have his assets put in anothers name, if not when did that start? when did he stop using his laptop routinely? When he was using his laptop what case was he finishing up on, or working on? my reasoning for the questions is that his laptop was his only security concern, not his desk top at work or home?? All my computers are my security concerns? I think something smells off about Ray Gricar. If he is a walk away I stand by corrupt walkaway. he got some easy money and split to better his life not to live in poverty. A spy, a murder by informant gone bad, maybe suicide if he was on anti depres drugs....I think his savings of 100K is legit. He only made good money for a few years and this is about the above average savings after taxes. if he has more $ he got it illegally.

Im thinking the LMW might also think Ray got paid off to leave. She would know these bad folks and what they are capable of. Im sure she also debates what Ray's fate ended up to be. The laptop would still have her wondering if he accepted a pay off or was he foul played. Its no wonder she won't come forward. She would be to afraid to IMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think some clues may fall within a time period. some questions I wonder about is did Ray always have his assets put in anothers name, if not when did that start? when did he stop using his laptop routinely?

Well, some known assets, i.e. the Mini, were known to have been put in PEF's name prior to July 2004. He paid off her mortgage at some point between 2002 and 2005.

When he was using his laptop what case was he finishing up on, or working on? my reasoning for the questions is that his laptop was his only security concern, not his desk top at work or home?? All my computers are my security concerns?

At home, the laptop was his only computer until in 12/04-1/05. He could have used it after that obviously. The only case I've about at that time was a manslaughter case that he lost.

I think something smells off about Ray Gricar. If he is a walk away I stand by corrupt walkaway. he got some easy money and split to better his life not to live in poverty. A spy, a murder by informant gone bad, maybe suicide if he was on anti depres drugs....I think his savings of 100K is legit. He only made good money for a few years and this is about the above average savings after taxes. if he has more $ he got it illegally.

There has been absolutely no suggestion about corruption and the questions about money focus on why he didn't have more, based on his known earnings.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Could Ray Gricar be a sleeper agent? Could his brother been involved as well? Maybe we dont know the true story around his Bro suicide? Maybe he got pushed off the bridge....

Roy Gricar, the brother, was known to be suffering from depression.

What is there to spy on in Bellefonte?

 

[cloudbuster05]

Roy Gricar, the brother, was known to be suffering from depression.

What is there to spy on in Bellefonte?

Roy did suffer from depression but so do alot of folks that doesn't mean he committed suicide though. Roy was on his way to pick up his youngest son from a school function as per his oldest son Tony said. It was not a bag of mulch as reported. Roy could not swim as per Tony (his son).

JJ something made Ray think Roy didn't committ suicide. The thought process started for Ray at some point. Tony even said the two sights are erriely alike. Remember you said Ray was brilliant minded so I have to wonder when this thought started?

No one jumps off a bridge on their way to pick up a young child and especially when they couldn't swim. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ something made Ray think Roy didn't committ suicide. The thought process started for Ray at some point. Tony even said the two sights are erriely alike. Remember you said Ray was brilliant minded so I have to wonder when this thought started?

Wishful thinking. I pointed out that, even in his professional life, RFG had trouble buying legitimate guilty but insane defenses.

No one jumps off a bridge on their way to pick up a young child and especially when they couldn't swim. JMO

Roy did.

 

[RTC]

[
There has been absolutely no suggestion about corruption and the questions about money focus on why he didn't have more, based on his known earnings.[/QUOTE]

I get that, but he only made 100K for a short time. From what I have read in this time he bought two mortgages, one for PF, helped with his daughter's and bought a car outright plus saved a $100K. I dont think there should be more money laying around.
what I am saying is that if decided to walk, I believe he did something illegal.
regardlessof what people say. You dont chose poverty if you dont have to.

Does anyone know if Ray was on anti Deppres drugs?