Penn State Sandusky Trial #12 (GUILTY-post verdict discussion)

[back2back19]

I think there is something about institutional control and I expect the death penalty.

Would that include the Sandusky stuff or whatever the Freeh report finds pertaining to Paterno? I don't really understand how the NCAA woudn't come down hard on Penn State for the Sandusky stuff but so many experts kept saying the NCAA would avoid it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That’s debatable. There are unclear areas in PA’s code and in the mandated reporter training classes. If you are a mandated reporter and you attended a mandated reporter training class, you left with knowledge that you would be held legally responsible for not reporting child abuse regardless of whether that knowledge came to you while you where practicing your profession or not.

I'm not sure of that point; that it is legitimately debatable indicates that the statute is ambiguous.

The CPSL does not require the child come directly before the mandated reporter in order for there to be an obligation to report.
http://www.pcar.org/sites/default/files/Mandated Reporter Training Curriculum.pdf

Respectfully, that is not the issue. Dr. Dranov was not acting in the course of his employment. He was there as a trusted friend of the family.

The question I have is "law enforcement official." That would include the DA's Office. Even though the Chambers' report was submitted to the DA's Office, Lauro said he never saw it. Administratively, that was a terrible decision, but the decision is neither criminal, unethical, nor an abuse of discretion. Legally, I'm not sure if it was required to be forwarded to DPW. If it was required, that would take this from a terrible decision to a criminal one.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Would that include the Sandusky stuff or whatever the Freeh report finds pertaining to Paterno? I don't really understand how the NCAA woudn't come down hard on Penn State for the Sandusky stuff but so many experts kept saying the NCAA would avoid it.

I think it would include the Sandusky stuff, that the administration was not properly supervising the program. I would not be too surprised if the Freeh Report didn't touch on the disciplining of football players or mentioned it only in passing. The issue is primarily what the administrators did.

Keep this in mind. The administrators had a responsibility to do the right thing. Even if Paterno threatened to resign, never raise another penny for Penn State, and become the head coach for Pitt, they had the obligation to say, "Well Joe, we're sorry to see you go," at least as far reporting Sandusky. Some other things, like voluntarily retiring, are different. If they really felt that Paterno shouldn't be there, for any reason, it was the administrators decision to remove him.

 

[BigCat]

Would that include the Sandusky stuff or whatever the Freeh report finds pertaining to Paterno? I don't really understand how the NCAA woudn't come down hard on Penn State for the Sandusky stuff but so many experts kept saying the NCAA would avoid it.

I imagine the argument is the "Sandusky stuff" didn't give Penn State a competitive advantage.

Another argument is the crimes are so serious that any action by the NCAA would be trivial. SMU received the death penalty -- a 2 year ban on playing football -- in the 80's because several players received improper benefits. What would the appropiate NCAA penalty for covering up child sexual abuse?

Of course, a cynic might suggest that Penn State football is "too big to fail." A severe penalty from the NCAA would punish not only Penn State; it would harm the Big 10 conference as a whole.

 

[BigCat]

I think it would include the Sandusky stuff, that the administration was not properly supervising the program. I would not be too surprised if the Freeh Report didn't touch on the disciplining of football players or mentioned it only in passing. The issue is primarily what the administrators did.

Keep this in mind. The administrators had a responsibility to do the right thing. Even if Paterno threatened to resign, never raise another penny for Penn State, and become the head coach for Pitt, they had the obligation to say, "Well Joe, we're sorry to see you go," at least as far reporting Sandusky. Some other things, like voluntarily retiring, are different. If they really felt that Paterno shouldn't be there, for any reason, it was the administrators decision to remove him.

I think you underestimate the man. He could not be fired. Well, I guess he was eventually fired. But only after he presided over the worst sports scandal in US history, and even then there were riots! And the ramifications have not fully been felt yet, IMO.

Here's the link to the story written back in 2005 about Spanier's and Curley's failed attempted to fire JoePa.

Penn State's Paterno proves his way works

Power corrupts, drop-kicking proud men from high places, and Paterno knew this even before he sat down in his home for what threatened to be the last fight of his career. In previous decades, Paterno grabbed all the power and reverence a coach could ever imagine. He studied power and, even as it grew, eclipsing that of his official superiors, he guarded it. He feared corruption, and his instincts helped him avoid it.

Read more: http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/05359/627761-143.stm#ixzz1zuEcy8Bd

Nevertheless, I do agree with you that the administrators failed in their obligation to do the right thing. They should have resigned if they did not have the power to fire a subordinate. They are paying the price for it now.

 

[Pensfan]

I'm not sure of that point; that it is legitimately debatable indicates that the statute is ambiguous.



Respectfully, that is not the issue. Dr. Dranov was not acting in the course of his employment. He was there as a trusted friend of the family.

The question I have is "law enforcement official." That would include the DA's Office. Even though the Chambers' report was submitted to the DA's Office, Lauro said he never saw it. Administratively, that was a terrible decision, but the decision is neither criminal, unethical, nor an abuse of discretion. Legally, I'm not sure if it was required to be forwarded to DPW. If it was required, that would take this from a terrible decision to a criminal one.

Respectfully, I realize Dranov wasn't providing anyone dialysis at the McQueary's home that evening, but according to PA's CPSL laws and their mandated reporter training manual that doesn't matter.

This is how unclear the mandated reporter law is in PA. I just asked a practicing physician x 32 years if he was a mandated reporter outside of his place of his employment (in PA) and he said he wasn't sure. For the 2 decades I practiced inside PA, I believed and was told that I was mandated reporter at all times. I was encouraged to contact CPS as well as the city police department when there was reasonable cause to suspect child abuse. Local LE was contacted when physical abuse was evident.

I can't imagine CPS happily sharing their information from the psychologist with anyone. They are difficult to work with and in my opinion a vast majority of them have BPD. CPS is also known for being incompetent and overworked. These might have resulted in issues with Chamber's report making it to the DA's office. Perhaps CPS stated that it was submitted, but it wasn't.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think you underestimate the man. He could not be fired. Well, I guess he was eventually fired. But only after he presided over the worst sports scandal in US history, and even then there were riots! And the ramifications have not fully been felt yet, IMO.

Here's the link to the story written back in 2005 about Spanier's and Curley's failed attempted to fire JoePa.

First, this was not an attempt to fire Paterno. It was an attempt to get him to leave voluntarily. Spanier and Curley were unwilling to pay the price of Paterno not raising funds anymore.

The thing was, the reason they wanted Paterno to retire was that he had several losing seasons, at that point. Six months after that meeting, Paterno said, "'If we don't win some games, I've got to get my rear end out of here. Simple as that.'' http://www.gainesville.com/article/20050514/GATORS20/50514005 Looking at the context, Paterno knew that either had to win or leave. He had a great season, and the pressure was off.

Second, you are confusing political clout with administrative authority. Spanier could have easily said, in 2004, "Well, Joe, you are destroying the football program, and even your fundraising won't make up for it. You retire, or you will be fired."

There was that thought out there at the time: http://www.athlonsports.com/college-football/joe-paternos-last-stand Spanier always had that ability, but lacked the will to use it. Now, with 20/20 hindsight, Paterno was right. 2005 was a great season. The football program continued to be a moneymaker; Paterno continued to raise funds. If, at the end of 2005, Paterno would have had another losing season, all of Paterno's clout would not have saved him.

Had there been strong opposition from Paterno about reporting Sandusky to DPW in 2001, that would have been the same situation (and there is no suggestion that there was strong opposition). Spanier, Schultz and Curley still the authority to order it reported. The administrative responsibility rested with them, not with Paterno.

Nevertheless, I do agree with you that the administrators failed in their obligation to do the right thing. They should have resigned if they did not have the power to fire a subordinate. They are paying the price for it now.

No, if they felt that a subordinate was not acting properly or successfully, they either should have ignored his advice or fired him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully, I realize Dranov wasn't providing anyone dialysis at the McQueary's home that evening, but according to PA's CPSL laws and their mandated reporter training manual that doesn't matter.

According to the same training manual you quote, it only becomes mandatory when such suspicion occurs "...in the course of their employment... ." This, indisputably, was never in the course of Dr. Dranov's employment.

This is how unclear the mandated reporter law is in PA. I just asked a practicing physician x 32 years if he was a mandated reporter outside of his place of his employment (in PA) and he said he wasn't sure. For the 2 decades I practiced inside PA, I believed and was told that I was mandated reporter at all times. I was encouraged to contact CPS as well as the city police department when there was reasonable cause to suspect child abuse. Local LE was contacted when physical abuse was evident.

I even looked at statute a while back, and nothing supports that premise that you would be legally required to report it all times, only through the course of employment. What you were trained to do, and what the legal requirement is, are not necessarily the same.

I can't imagine CPS happily sharing their information from the psychologist with anyone. They are difficult to work with and in my opinion a vast majority of them have BPD. CPS is also known for being incompetent and overworked. These might have resulted in issues with Chamber's report making it to the DA's office. Perhaps CPS stated that it was submitted, but it wasn't.

The paper trail, that we know of, is that Lauro (DPW) first contacted Schreffler (Univ. Police) on 4/5/98. On 4/8/98, Schreffler got the Chambers' Report and attached it to the supplemental report. There has been no suggestion this report was ever sent to DPW or C&YS, by the Univ. Police.

I know that in other counties, those reports a sent to the DA's Office; part of an old friend's job was going out daily to collect them. I cannot image any DA in Pennsylvania making a decision on charging anyone for anything without looking at the police report first. They wouldn't have any idea what happened.

 

[Reader]

Earlier in the week I speculated that the Paternos and their acolytes leaked the emails snippets as a form of damage control, and then they turned around and condemned the leaks in an effort to seize the narrative and make JoePa the victim.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. For what it's worth, the below story is consistent with that theory.

JMO

Very interesting from your same link:

http://espn.go.com/college-football...cted-very-tough-joe-paterno-according-sources

A consulting firm's report offering new information about how Joe Paterno and Penn State senior officials responded to an allegation that Jerry Sandusky had sexually abused a boy inside the football team's showers could be made public as early as next week, several sources said Friday, and is expected to be tough on Paterno.


The report is expected to shed new light on administrators' handling of the Sandusky allegations, and also raise questions about Paterno's leadership of Penn State's vaunted football program, according to several people with knowledge of the inquiry's scope.


"Much of the focus will be on the culture of the football program, with findings that go back more than a decade," said a Penn State official briefed on the inquiry, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "It's going to be very tough on Joe (Paterno)."

 

[Reader]

First, this was not an attempt to fire Paterno. It was an attempt to get him to leave voluntarily. Spanier and Curley were unwilling to pay the price of Paterno not raising funds anymore.

The thing was, the reason they wanted Paterno to retire was that he had several losing seasons, at that point. Six months after that meeting, Paterno said, "'If we don't win some games, I've got to get my rear end out of here. Simple as that.'' http://www.gainesville.com/article/20050514/GATORS20/50514005 Looking at the context, Paterno knew that either had to win or leave. He had a great season, and the pressure was off.

Second, you are confusing political clout with administrative authority. Spanier could have easily said, in 2004, "Well, Joe, you are destroying the football program, and even your fundraising won't make up for it. You retire, or you will be fired."

There was that thought out there at the time: http://www.athlonsports.com/college-football/joe-paternos-last-stand Spanier always had that ability, but lacked the will to use it. Now, with 20/20 hindsight, Paterno was right. 2005 was a great season. The football program continued to be a moneymaker; Paterno continued to raise funds. If, at the end of 2005, Paterno would have had another losing season, all of Paterno's clout would not have saved him.

Had there been strong opposition from Paterno about reporting Sandusky to DPW in 2001, that would have been the same situation (and there is no suggestion that there was strong opposition). Spanier, Schultz and Curley still the authority to order it reported. The administrative responsibility rested with them, not with Paterno.




No, if they felt that a subordinate was not acting properly or successfully, they either should have ignored his advice or fired him.

BBM - I agree with that and the admins failed in their duties to the victims shamefully, and if it was because of the football wins and Paterno's influence and fundraising, that is even more shameful to me. To place money and stupid football games above the abuse of children! Pure corruption of power, money and duty. Spanier had the ultimate authority as president of the school and I hope he is charged also.

 

[Reader]

Vigilance is imperative: There's a Jerry Sandusky in every town

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2018613887_guest06palm.html

.........Yet, to demonize Jerry Sandusky is to mischaracterize the danger that exists in every community. It is certain that a Jerry Sandusky walks the streets of every town, including the streets of Seattle, at this very moment. To paint Sandusky as an evil monster is to miss the greatest lesson in this heartbreaking saga that has unfolded.

Adults who see children as sexual objects look like the friendly neighbor, coach, teacher or youth worker who takes an extra interest in a child. Our collective failure to recognize the patterns of grooming beneath the engaging demeanor of the abuser continues to leave vulnerable children at risk — not just those unlucky children way over in Happy Valley, Pa., but each and every child in our own community.
-------

The stories of Sandusky's victims illustrate the norm. Placing the responsibility for their own safety on the very children who are at risk is a strategy that will fail. For a complexity of reasons, statistics show that, overwhelmingly, most children don't tell of their abuse and some never tell across their entire lifetime.

More at link....

IMO a good rule for parents, single or couples, is to NOT allow any underage child to go to activities or trips, no matter how worthwhile they sound, with any adult, male or female, alone. And I realize there are good people who are not abusers who may offer this to help a child but protection of the child should come first, as tempting as an opportunity seems. As has been proved in this case, no matter the person's shining personality and good reputation, a parent cannot be too careful. Let the child go with a supervised group of peers, take them yourself if possible, find something else they can do instead with friends or plan a family activity. These are things all of the regulars on this forum know but there are many other readers.

 

[costalpilot]

I think there is something about institutional control and I expect the death penalty.

there certainly IS an "institutional control" avenue, and I think the 2a is right now trying to come to grip with what this might mean in this case.

historically, imo, its only been used once to impose the death penalty, and that was against smu back in the day. no similarity between that case and this, as this is completly unique.

the 2A has been all over the landscape across the years when it comes to penalties and investigations, especially in recent years. its a shakey crap game guess at this point as to what they might do. and ANYTHING is possible.

most sports commentators I have listened to trend away from the 2A getting involved with this, as this is so vastly different than anything else. this is a case for law courts, they reason, not a fluff, "who knows what goes" 2A investigation.

certainly they could and the death penalty wouldnt seem out of line to me, considering whats gonna be revealed.

but i'm betting against it. for a lot of reasons. not the least of which is the 2A probably doesnt want psu out of football for a couple of years right now. (and thats really all the "death penalty" does is get you off the field for a couple of years, not that that isnt a lot. it is. but its not really the end of the program.).

the 2A is a lot more comfortable going after alums who slip impoverished youths $100 under the table than they are head coaches and university presidents who enable sexual predators to use university facilities and provenance to stalk and prey on kids.

the former will get you a lot of attention from them.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

[/B]

BBM - I agree with that and the admins failed in their duties to the victims shamefully, and if it was because of the football wins and Paterno's influence and fundraising, that is even more shameful to me.

Well, this dealt specifically Paterno's performance on the playing field. There is no suggestion, at this point, that this was a factor in the decision of Spanier, Curley or Schultz.

Paterno, however, knew in 2004 that his reputation and his fundraising would not be enough to keep him in the coaching position. He was being pressured to perform or get out.

To place money and stupid football games above the abuse of children! Pure corruption of power, money and duty. Spanier had the ultimate authority as president of the school and I hope he is charged also.

Now, there is no evidence of that. There is some evidence that Paterno approved of not turning the case over to DPW in 2001. There is no evidence that he used his clout to make that happen. Granted, some might come out. The decision was that of the administrators involved, not Paterno's. It wouldn't make any difference what he wanted or what he didn't to do.

 

[Reader]

Well, this dealt specifically Paterno's performance on the playing field. There is no suggestion, at this point, that this was a factor in the decision of Spanier, Curley or Schultz.

Paterno, however, knew in 2004 that his reputation and his fundraising would not be enough to keep him in the coaching position. He was being pressured to perform or get out.



Now, there is no evidence of that. There is some evidence that Paterno approved of not turning the case over to DPW in 2001. There is no evidence that he used his clout to make that happen. Granted, some might come out. The decision was that of the administrators involved, not Paterno's. It wouldn't make any difference what he wanted or what he didn't to do.

I see I wasn't clear and probably should have not jumped off your post, but I was just extrapolating all of this together with the news that Freeh's report is going to be 'very tough on Paterno'.

IMO, all of it comes together with Paterno's worries about his football program and not wanting to leave or lose control, which in 2001 was a danger if it was known JS had still been allowed to bring boys to the school facilities and abuse them.

I did say that Spanier had the 'ultimate authority'.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

[/B]

BBM - I agree with that and the admins failed in their duties to the victims shamefully, and if it was because of the football wins and Paterno's influence and fundraising, that is even more shameful to me. To place money and stupid football games above the abuse of children! Pure corruption of power, money and duty. Spanier had the ultimate authority as president of the school and I hope he is charged also.

~respectfully BBM~

Reader, I could not agree more.

This scandal just keeps getting worse and worse as more details come out, doesn't it?

PSU needs to pop the boil on their butt and be proactive so the University can heal. Starting with removing that bronze off-campus...donate it to the family and they can start a JP museum off campus. I don't feel it should be destroyed, it's a nice bronze. The halo on the mural over JP's head should be removed too. The man was no Angel and may not be now but that is for a higher power to decide!

I hate to see current students and athletes punished for others' past trangressions. However, I wish PSU would put a hiatus on the football program for a season so the students and faculty can heal and they can rebuild. Students can root for the basketball team and myraid other collegiate sports. IIRC, the basketball team was not bad last season, but I didn't watch every game they played.

I fear if NCAA gives the death penalty to the football program, the boil will continue to fester. PSU should be proactive and pop that boil, rid itself of the pus and heal itself, asap!

I feel so badly for the dark shadow this scandal has cast on good people that had nothing to do with these shenanigans.

My thoughts and opinions.

wm

 

[Reader]

[/B]

~respectfully BBM~

Reader, I could not agree more.

This scandal just keeps getting worse and worse as more details come out, doesn't it?

PSU needs to pop the boil on their butt and be proactive so the University can heal. Starting with removing that bronze off-campus...donate it to the family and they can start a JP museum off campus. I don't feel it should be destroyed, it's a nice bronze. The halo on the mural over JP's head should be removed too. The man was no Angel and may not be now but that is for a higher power to decide!

I hate to see current students and athletes punished for others' past trangressions. However, I wish PSU would put a hiatus on the football program for a season so the students and faculty can heal and they can rebuild. Students can root for the basketball team and myraid other collegiate sports. IIRC, the basketball team was not bad last season, but I didn't watch every game they played.

I fear if NCAA gives the death penalty to the football program, the boil will continue to fester. PSU should be proactive and pop that boil, rid itself of the pus and heal itself, asap!

I feel so badly for the dark shadow this scandal has cast on good people that had nothing to do with these shenanigans.

My thoughts and opinions.

wm

BBM-I agree with all you say, waltzingmatilda but that esp. would be wonderful IF they would do it...I'm afraid that the 'death penalty' from the NCAA would cause resentment, although I think some sanctions are in order if FB players were given special treatment, or if it's proven that Paterno had more power than he should have had to influence the admins' decisions. It would be much more meaningful if the healing came from within. IMO

 

[costalpilot]

oh, btw, I did hear one convincing argument for 2A involvement, and it was, shockingly, related by colin cowherd live on his tv show, when he presented it AGAINST his official stance, which is that the 2A should not get involved.

here it is:

the 2A is concerned with improper institutional behavior in support of competitive advantage more than anything else.

in other words, they want to try and keep the field level by preventing schools from cheating to gain an advantage on the field.

cowherd thought the sandusky case had nothing to do with 'competitive advantage".

but several listeners pointed out to him that by covering up what would have been massive negatve publicity for the team in 1998 and 2001 the school was preventing damage to its reputation and consequesntly recruiting. and gaining an unfair advantage thereby.

makes sense. but nothing the 2A does makes sense to anyone but itself (apparently).

 

[BigCat]

[/B]

~respectfully BBM~

Reader, I could not agree more.

This scandal just keeps getting worse and worse as more details come out, doesn't it?

PSU needs to pop the boil on their butt and be proactive so the University can heal. Starting with removing that bronze off-campus...donate it to the family and they can start a JP museum off campus. I don't feel it should be destroyed, it's a nice bronze. The halo on the mural over JP's head should be removed too. The man was no Angel and may not be now but that is for a higher power to decide!

I hate to see current students and athletes punished for others' past trangressions. However, I wish PSU would put a hiatus on the football program for a season so the students and faculty can heal and they can rebuild. Students can root for the basketball team and myraid other collegiate sports. IIRC, the basketball team was not bad last season, but I didn't watch every game they played.

I fear if NCAA gives the death penalty to the football program, the boil will continue to fester. PSU should be proactive and pop that boil, rid itself of the pus and heal itself, asap!

I feel so badly for the dark shadow this scandal has cast on good people that had nothing to do with these shenanigans.

My thoughts and opinions.

wm

Sadly, I see dark days ahead for Penn State as well. The choice the Penn State community faces is similiar to the one Hamlet faced:

a) Obsess over your father's legacy

or

b) Let it go and move on

Shakespeare, that great student of human nature, understood that we are more likely to dwell on a perceived slight to our family's honor, even though it will only lead to death and destruction, than we are to move on and make the most out of life.

That would be tragic choice because Penn State is a GREAT unversity. It is much bigger than the football program, and definitely bigger than one man.

What I find especially sad is that even if the majority of the PSU community decides to move on, it only takes a few bomb-throwers to ensure that healing will not begin.

For example, here a couple of posting on PSU football board by Anthony Lubrano, a recently elected member of the Penn State BOT and a Paterno loyalist:

WE (Lubrano, McCombie and Talieferro) will ask the questions. And Joe Paterno, absent any "smoking gun", will be honored. Of course, the members of the BOT involved in the Nov 9th decision just night not be members by the time that happens.

As each of the recently elected Trustees has communicated to others on the Board, the elephant in the room remains Joe Paterno. Consequently, WE must address this matter directly rather than hide or run away from it. Unfortunately, in corporate America, the strategy often employed is to distance oneself from an issue as quickly as possible. However, Penn State operates more like a family in many respects. So long as the alumni continues to make their views known, WE will continue to listen.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see a bloodbath coming. More CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA GOTHIC

JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Sadly, I see dark days ahead for Penn State as well. The choice the Penn State community faces is similiar to the one Hamlet faced:

a) Obsess over your father's legacy

or

b) Let it go and move on

Shakespeare, that great student of human nature, understood that we are more likely to dwell on a perceived slight to our family's honor, even though it will only lead to death and destruction, than we are to move on and make the most out of life.

That would be tragic choice because Penn State is a GREAT unversity. It is much bigger than the football program, and definitely bigger than one man.

What I find especially sad is that even if the majority of the PSU community decides to move on, it only takes a few bomb-throwers to ensure that healing will not begin.

That e-mail really has me troubled. On one hand you have Paterno properly reporting this to his superiors, doing exactly what he was suppose to do. On the other hand, it sure looks like Paterno was aware that this was not being reported to the proper authorities. Even if the message from him was, "Do what you are legally required to do," would be enough.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see a bloodbath coming. More CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA GOTHIC

JMO

I think you are right, and thanks for saving me the trouble of posting it.

 

[Pensfan]

I am still confused at to why Lauro was involved at all in this case. The social workers at Centre County CPS were qualified and had experience to determine if Jer’s behavior had a pedophile stench. I’ve worked with numerous hospital social workers and CPS social workers and never heard any mention involving an "investigator" from the DPW. Was CPS just passing the buck because the perv was Sandusky (associated with TSM and PSU)?

Was Lauro's opinion that Sandusky was a pedo required for the DA to press charges against Sandusky or was this more of a second opinion? In my county, CPS reports pedos to LE without a DPW investigator's opinion. ??????