The odds of the DNA matching a known pedophile burglar robber and the R's confession seem pretty far-fetched, realistically at best only one of these scenarios at best will materialize (either R's confess or DNA matches, at best, a criminal)
Poll: If an R confessed, would you accept it?
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The odds of the DNA matching a known pedophile burglar robber and the R's confession seem pretty far-fetched, realistically at best only one of these scenarios at best will materialize (either R's confess or DNA matches, at best, a criminal)
passionflower
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I have read all of the above answers and they are all good.
I just can't vote because I sit on the fence.
I think both R's are quilty, one way or another.........
I just can't vote because I sit on the fence.
I think both R's are quilty, one way or another.........
Got it.
Holdontoyourhat
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If the DNA is linked to a pedophile serial killer, or someone else with a criminal reputation or a rap sheet?
This is a very valid point.
A confession on its own is nearly meaningless in this case.
A parent who felt so guilty, so responsible for leaving their doors open, alarms off, and their daughter on a different floor than them? This parent is subject to making a false confession.
They would have to PROVE they did it, and that shouldn't be hard to do if they really did it. There's about a hundred different things they could do to provide smoking gun evidence. Fact is, they could confess and yet be unable to provide ANY smoking gun evidence. Therefore, a confession on its own is meaningless.
Anyone who accepts an R confession on its own is giving the real child killer a pass. A confession would have to be accompanied by smoking gun evidence that they provide. That would be easy if they truly did it.
amy's rapist is "known" but i do not know if she/they consented to a rape exam and dna
hopefully sophie can shed light
Do you have any more information on this? I would love to see it.
As far as the subject of the thread, If the DNA is matched to a person who did not have access to the Ramsey home the case is solved. People want to make this big DNA database into something that it is not. It is a work in progress but it does not have every known Pedofile listed.
The answer to this case will probably be just like every other that is solved way after the fact. The answer was right under their nose the whole time. But I remain 98% convinced that it is IDI and I also believe that RDI theory will crumble in the next few years. We will see justice and we will all party. :woohoo:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml
How did 6-year-old JonBenet become a target? Gray and San Augustin have a theory of how she may have been marked for death.
"She was high profile in her community. She had just participated in several pageants in the general area," says Gray. "She had participated in the Christmas parade in Boulder. So you know you have seen her."
Investigators believe that putting JonBenet in the public eye may have inadvertently put her in the sights of a sexual predator as well.
48 Hours has learned that JonBenet may have been targeted for murder long before she took the stage, possibly at a local dance studio called Dance West, where she took lessons.
"To someone with that, you know, kind of a twisted mind, she may have looked like a really good target," says former Denver private investigator Pete Peterson. Less than a year after the murder of JonBenet, he was hired to work on another case in Boulder that had strange parallels to the Ramsey case.
"There's a Dance West school where the victim of the assault in our case, the one that we investigated, and the Ramsey girl, both attended," says Peterson, who now believes Jon Benet was first targeted at that dance studio because of what happened to his client, just nine months after JonBenet was murdered.
Like JonBenet, she took lessons at Dance West. And like JonBenet, another girl, who is identified as "Amy," was attacked and sexually assaulted at night in her own bedroom on Sept. 14, 1997.
That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.
Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding."
Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said, 'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently. 'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"
Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.
"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."
By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.
"The first thing that occurred to us was that it was the parallel to the Ramsey case because it was exactly the same situation," says Amy's father, who even told the Boulder police about the Dance West studio connection to the Ramsey case. "I think someone, somewhere, drew a bead on her. Obviously had us under surveillance that we were not aware of."
The studio has since gone out of business and been torn down, but photos show that there was a balcony overlooking the dance floor where parents and anyone else could come in and watch the children.
But Amy's dad says that when he told the police detectives about the information he had, "they were completely uninterested in it."
"They were very frustrated," says Peterson. "It was difficult to get them to do anything much less, you know, beyond taking a report."
But not only did the Boulder police dismiss any link to the Ramsey case, they didn't even bother to use the mother's eyewitness description to make a composite sketch. That's when Amy's family hired Peterson. What he has uncovered in his investigation may not only solve Amy's case, but also help lead to the capture of JonBenet's killer.
"This person is someone with a huge ego, someone who views himself as bold," says Peterson, who believes there are too many parallels between Amy's case and JonBenet's murder.
Both JonBenet and Amy were sexually assaulted by an intruder at night in their homes -- within nine months of each other. Fiber evidence shows that JonBenet's attacker may have been wearing black, as was the man who attacked Amy. And there's the fact that both girls took lessons at the Dance West studio.
Aware of the damage this can cause RDI, and how it thoroughly invalidates CASKU analysis, the dark Lords of RDI spin team, the Spin Lord came up with a rather creative explanation: Amy's rapist was actually her bf, and Amy lied to her parents to protect her reputation. Possible, but then she and her parents made false statements to LE. The RDI powers of spin are far beyond yours.
I told the Dark Lord of the Spin that while his spin is possible, does he have specific evidence that Amy, her mother and father, falsely reported rape to LE?
Despite the RDI spin team's spin, this was a real rape, less than 2 miles and 9 months after JB, which invalidates CASKU, and Sophie put in a FOIA request for this case and She did receive paperwork from Boulder LE.
It completely invalidates CASKU's key premise that "pedophile intruders don't enter peoples homes while they are away and wait for them to come home and assault and rape young girls as is in JB" which of course is exactly what happened to Amy less than 2 miles and 9 months after JB.
CASKU analysis clearly states for their analysis they need to consider similar crimes to other minors, and when they submitted their analysis, there were no such crimes, and therefore the parents did it, and that this is a key premise of the validity of their conclusion. 2 miles away and 9 months later, Amy was raped.
????????????
HOTYH, I realize that people do occasionally confess to things they didn't do for whatever reasons, but that seems like a stretch, to be polite.
Yeah, and it might have helped if they had actually DONE them!
That said, your viewpoint is very much that of a defense attorney. I've heard these arguments before (not concerning this case), and they always seem to come from professional defenders.
Perhaps you didn't read what I had to say. I'll reiterate:
to my way of thinking, a confession from an R would obviate the need to explain everything.
Let me elaborate further: to hear the Rs tell it, there was a double standard in the investigation. Well, there was, but not the way they mean it! The double standard comes from the fact that we KNOW that the Rs were in the house that night, whereas you have to establish a nexus of evidence to show that someone else was. (HOTYH actually helped me emphasize that in his "owner of the DNA" thread...not that he meant to, of course.) For that reason, a confession by the Rs automatically requires less explanation than that of an intruder. An intruder WOULD have to account for literally everything, but an R would NOT. Like it or not, that's just how it is.
It's that belief that makes me wonder why you would accept an R confession like you said you would.
Oh, THEY came up with it. That's all I need to know.
I said it once before: it sounds like he's drinking his own Kool-Aid.
The heck, I say, on both counts.
Look, let's go back to the ol' Razor again. There are two explanations:
1) The police didn't pursue it because there was nothing to pursue.
2) The police didn't pursue it because of this big anti-Ramsey conspiracy that JR, the two goons who came up with this tripe and Amy's dad keep talking about.
Which is easier to believe?
Wouldn't be the first time. You said yourself that you couldn't completely discount it. Did you change your mind?
Thanks.
Actually, if the parents legitimately believed it, then they weren't false.
Any response I give to that would invariably get me banned, if you get my meaning.
See, this is what threw me. Given statements like this, I can't understand why you'd be so willing to accept an R confession. It just doesn't jell for me.
Is that you Lin Wood?
If all the facts of this case are indeed as they have been publicly reported, may I also suggest the very simple possibility that this was a copycat crime (as you have suggested in the past). Or have you conveniently forgotten?
Holdontoyourhat
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Fortunately, you've not been tasked with explaining to me 'how things are'. Its a bit preachy, really.
Maybe you need an example of what I mean. That confession would, for example, HAVE to include a pretty good explanation as to the appearance and disappearance of the cord and tape rolls
That confession would HAVE to be plausible and complement the existing information. I believe what you are saying is that a confession by PR or JR in and of itself is good to go, while ignoring the presence of intruder DNA. That seems reckless to me. I wouldn't go there.
You've got intruder DNA directing the course of events now.
Sorry, HOTYH. You're right. But, in my defense, I wasn't addressing you specifically, and for the last year I've been writing for an audience much less educated on this case than us. Guess I haven't re-adjusted fully. Don't take it personally.
I'll be perfectly honest, HOTYH. You inspired me to create this poll. You asked me the same question, and you gave those same reasons why you wouldn't. Well, my point was, and most people here, even other IDIs, seem to agree with it, that because the Rs were KNOWN to be in the house that night, a confession from one of them is not bound to the same rules as a confession from someone else.
Not exactly. My major point is that there's already enough so that a confession would fill in enough blanks so as to work.
That's just it, HOTYH: so far, there's no proof it IS intruder DNA. That was one of the points I've been trying hammer home with this. That's WHY a confession from PR or JR would be good to go, as it were.
Well, I'd do a LOT of things you probably wouldn't. (That's a damn good thing!)
Holdontoyourhat
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Maybe not, but there is proof of criminally placed DNA. Enough proof to run in the news, generate exhoneration letters, etc., etc. Lets face it nobody's blowing the RDI horn anymore.
Proof simply means having sufficient evidence to produce a belief.
- Blood was produced during a known criminal sexual assault on JBR.
- Mixed with that blood was DNA from an unknown male.
- Longjohns were replaced following the assault.
- DNA from the same male is found in two places on these longjohns.
What instead does it cause you to believe?
If it doesn't prove it in your mind, does it at least indicate something? If so, what?
It leads me to believe that DNA was deposited via secondary transfer, which has been proven to be a viable alternative.
As I have posted previously :
"We regularly observed profiles of previous holders of a tube from swabs of hands involved in these exchanges, showing that in some cases material from which DNA can be retrieved is transferred from object to hand (secondary transfer). "
http://www.bioforensics.com/conference04/Transfer/FingerprintsFromFingerprints.pdf
Holdontoyourhat
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I would go along with the secondary transfer if there was more than one DNA found, and found in locations like under her foot or on her hands.
But when only one DNA is found only on her underwear, known already to have been handled by a criminal, and at the exclusion of all other items or areas, the argument for secondary transfer collapses.
madeleine
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THEY WEREN'T HIRED TO FIND THE KILLER.
And it's not ME saying it,it's JR's own deposition fgs!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you know what DEFENCE lawyers and their investigators are usually hired for?????To create reasonable doubt.....
This is what the comparison to the AMy case is ALL about.What's so hard to get?
madeleine
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Q. All right. Were you involved in
25 directing the activities of these investigators
0013
1 that were working on your behalf?
2 A. I was not.
3 Q. Then what was, basically, your
4 association with the private investigation of the
5 potential suspects in the murder of JonBenet
6 Ramsey?
7 A. The investigators were retained by our
8 attorneys, and they stated to me that the
9 principal purpose of those investigators was to
10 prepare a defense in the case that the police
11 might bring a charge against me.
12 I hopedrolleyesthat they would also follow
13 up on leads that came to us, but I was
14 frequently reminded by our attorneys that their
15 principal role was to prepare a defense should
16 that be necessary.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/12122001Depo-JohnRamsey.htm
25 directing the activities of these investigators
0013
1 that were working on your behalf?
2 A. I was not.
3 Q. Then what was, basically, your
4 association with the private investigation of the
5 potential suspects in the murder of JonBenet
6 Ramsey?
7 A. The investigators were retained by our
8 attorneys, and they stated to me that the
9 principal purpose of those investigators was to
10 prepare a defense in the case that the police
11 might bring a charge against me.
12 I hoped
rolleyesthat they would also follow13 up on leads that came to us, but I was
14 frequently reminded by our attorneys that their
15 principal role was to prepare a defense should
16 that be necessary.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/12122001Depo-JohnRamsey.htm
madeleine
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You wish.
Now we know why they didn't test everything ,see my signature.They only tested what Lacy desperately needed in order to exonerate the Ramsey's.Wanna bet that they WON'T find it anywhere else??After seeing everything that happened in this case I have all reasons to doubt those samples and question whether they are indeed the samples found at the Ramsey crime scene.