Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2

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The World According said:
Here we go, I found it the section where Cindy lies and says that LE let the car sit there for two days, and Yuri tells her that is not true...it was within hours.
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Here's the whole timeline. BeanE, Bond and others worked really hard on it. Lots of detail info in there. Car was picked up about 7:46pm on the 16th IIRC.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93000"]Events Post-911 Calls 7/15 to Arrest 7/16 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

ETA: looks like it got to the forenics bay at that time and working backwards it was sealed around 7:20.
 
Snaz said:
<Respectfully snipped and bolded by me>

Why would George have to assume that the smell resulted from his daughter murdering his granddaughter? If he has so much faith in KC and thought she was such a wonderful mother (as he has stated MANY times), why wouldn't his first thought be that maybe the smell of decomp in his daughter's trunk was from either his daughter or granddaughter...and that maybe the reason they haven't seen them is because SOMEONE ELSE killed them and one of both of them is in that trunk???

That alone would make me call LE FIRST, way before I opened that trunk.... especially given that as former LE himself, George did know the smell was decomp. Given his knowledge, he should have called LE and let THEM open the trunk.

JMO
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I've always felt that it was reasonable, when confronted with a car that smelled of human decomposition, and knowing he hadn't laid eyes on his granddaughter in 31 days, nor his daughter for about 3 weeks (assuming that the last time he saw Casey was on June 24th - gas can confrontation), that the natural assumption would be that someone had killed his granddaughter and daughter and abandoned the car. If GA noted Casey's purse in the car, that would only further confirm his suspicion. GA should have called the police before going any further. Once GA opened the trunk, he contaminated a possible crime scene.

Just for the sake of supposition........what if GA had called the police, without opening the trunk or touching the car any further? How would that have changed the outcome?

It's likely the police would have been suspicious even without the presence of a dead body as the car reeked of decomposition. They would question GA, and if GA was honest and truthful, the police would have learned that a month prior CA and KC had a terrible fight and KC left their home with Caylee and that's the last time GA and CA saw their granddaughter. The police would learn that although CA had spoken with KC on the phone, neither GA or CA had seen KC in about three weeks.

At that point, the police might opt that the car be left at the tow yard, un-touched, until KC and Caylee can be located and KC questioned. I'm sure the police would have found KC within a day or two, and not finding Caylee and hearing KC's story, they would have gone ahead and impounded the car.

All evidence in that car would have been preserved. KC's slacks wouldn't have been washed, nor the "mama" doll cleaned, nor any clean up of the vehicle done. The forensic team would have had a car with the evidence intact.
 
Leila said:
I've always felt that it was reasonable, when confronted with a car that smelled of human decomposition, and knowing he hadn't laid eyes on his granddaughter in 31 days, nor his daughter for about 3 weeks (assuming that the last time he saw Casey was on June 24th - gas can confrontation), that the natural assumption would be that someone had killed his granddaughter and daughter and abandoned the car. If GA noted Casey's purse in the car, that would only further confirm his suspicion. GA should have called the police before going any further. Once GA opened the trunk, he contaminated a possible crime scene.

Just for the sake of supposition........what if GA had called the police, without opening the trunk or touching the car any further? How would that have changed the outcome?

It's likely the police would have been suspicious even without the presence of a dead body as the car reeked of decomposition. They would question GA, and if GA was honest and truthful, the police would have learned that a month prior CA and KC had a terrible fight and KC left their home with Caylee and that's the last time GA and CA saw their granddaughter. The police would learn that although CA had spoken with KC on the phone, neither GA or CA had seen KC in about three weeks.

At that point, the police might opt that the car be left at the tow yard, un-touched, until KC and Caylee can be located and KC questioned. I'm sure the police would have found KC within a day or two, and not finding Caylee and hearing KC's story, they would have gone ahead and impounded the car.

All evidence in that car would have been preserved. KC's slacks wouldn't have been washed, nor the "mama" doll cleaned, nor any clean up of the vehicle done. The forensic team would have had a car with the evidence intact.
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Ya know...in spite of what they believed in their heads to be true...LE went out day after day stating they were looking for an "alive" Caylee. Bless their hearts.
 
JBean said:
Here's the whole timeline. BeanE, Bond and others worked really hard on it. Lots of detail info in there. Car was picked up about 7:46pm on the 16th IIRC.

Events Post-911 Calls 7/15 to Arrest 7/16 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

ETA: looks like it got to the forenics bay at that time and working backwards it was sealed around 7:20.
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Oh goodness, I am not upset with anyone here....it is Cindy who lied and had everyone up in arms!
Thank you for finding the exact time for me!!! It is just as I remembered. Yuri arrived on the scene at nearly four a.m. and went through all the paces he did, all day and early evening and picked up the car at seven pm....the same day. I do not have any big problem with that, when one considers all that they did in those hours. Of course we wish they would have taken it immediately. I am only saying that much like everything else Cindy said...she lied. She said they left the car to sit for two days. Unfortunately, for the investigation...she spent a lot of time disparaging LE in horrible ways and I do not want to let that stand.:snooty: I hate that she does that to soooo many innocent people. To me it is outrageous.
 
The World According said:
Oh goodness, I am not upset with anyone here....it is Cindy who lied and had everyone up in arms!
Thank you for finding the exact time for me!!! It is just as I remembered. Yuri arrived on the scene at nearly four a.m. and went through all the paces he did, all day and early evening and picked up the car at seven pm....the same day. I do not have any big problem with that, when one considers all that they did in those hours. Of course we wish they would have taken it immediately. I am only saying that much like everything else Cindy said...she lied. She said they left the car to sit for two days. Unfortunately, for the investigation...she spent a lot of time disparaging LE in horrible ways and I do not want to let that stand.:snooty: I hate that she does that to soooo many innocent people. To me it is outrageous.
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She also said that the car sat at the tow yard for days and someone else could have had access to it...and I guess following her reasoning at the time...had access to another dead body as well.
 
Harmony2 said:
This is the updated timeline on the car with all the new credited information:

Vehicle timeline

July 15

*8:08 pm 1st 911 call Cindy takes Casey to Police Dept. but it is closed she calls another department
http://www.wftv.com/video/16989413/index.html

*8:44 pm 2nd 911 call
http://www.wftv.com/video/16980843/index.html

*9:41 pm 3rd 911 call
http://www.wftv.com/video/16980866/index.html

quoting JBean



* 9:50 pm George returns home and sees Cindy in the garage crying when he arrived

July 16

* 00:45AM Yuri was contacted

Quoting BeanE: ~Note: corrected time~



* 11:54am Yuri’s call to George according to JWG's post
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Pontiac - "Revisted"


* 12:30PM Yuri sent for Casey to be picked up

BeanE’s info from Yuri’s write up:
* 4:33PM Casey arrested and while Yuri was writing up KC's charging affidavit he instructed “Detective Charity Beasley to go to 4937 Hopespring Drive to recover the defendant's car”...(seal/ tape the car).



Also from BeanE’s info:



* 7:46 pm from BeanE’s info

.

from JWG’s post Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Pontiac - "Revisted"

* 7:46pm Bloise's CSI report indicates he began processing the car

Adding Bond's info:


Note: #2 conflicts with other statement

Please feel free to make any corrections.
Click to expand...

This sums it all up
 
The World According said:
Oh goodness, I am not upset with anyone here....it is Cindy who lied and had everyone up in arms!
Thank you for finding the exact time for me!!! It is just as I remembered. Yuri arrived on the scene at nearly four a.m. and went through all the paces he did, all day and early evening and picked up the car at seven pm....the same day. I do not have any big problem with that, when one considers all that they did in those hours. Of course we wish they would have taken it immediately. I am only saying that much like everything else Cindy said...she lied. She said they left the car to sit for two days. Unfortunately, for the investigation...she spent a lot of time disparaging LE in horrible ways and I do not want to let that stand.:snooty: I hate that she does that to soooo many innocent people. To me it is outrageous.
Click to expand...
I don't think there is any problem with the time it took to pick up the car, it is just the hours that ticked by with free access to the car and no apparent concern about the horrible smell that was reported. It sounds fromYM's bond hearing testimony that he did not go check or smell the car himself until later, despite being informed of it earlier.

The topic is trying to become about CA and GA's behavior but what the goal here is to look at LE's activity with regard to the car sealing.
 
bondjamesbond said:
Updating based on add'l info from BeanE's post :blowkiss: and cell records...

Quote:
7/16/08
00:45 AM Sgt. Hosey notified Yuri.

01:05 AM Casey completed or began her 4-page handwritten statement

04:11 AM Yuri arrived @ G&C's and began his first interview w/ Casey after he read Casey's statement. Yuri's narrative indicates that LE had already learned that the Sawgrass apt. in question had been vacant for 142 days. LE had gone w/ Casey to Sawgrass 7/15PM.

>4:11 AM Yuri and Casey left G&C's and drove to Glenwood address, then Sawgrass, then, Crossings @ Conway.

<6:48 AM Yuri dropped Casey back @ G&C's. George informed Yuri that he & Cindy believed Casey was withholding information and they're concerned something had happened to Caylee. Comments to Yuri about the smell in the Pontiac.

##:## AM Yuri briefed Sgt. Allen

##:## AM Yuri visited Sawgrass Apt. and inquired about ZFG, etc.

11:30-11:44 AM Yuri visited Universal Studios w/ Investigator Turtora re: Casey's employment information, etc. and called Casey to inquire about some of the details

12:30PM Sgt. Allen & Det. Wells picked up Casey from G&C's and transported her to Universal Studios

##:##PM Det. Beasley arrived @ G&C's to process the Pontiac and received additional items from Cindy. Need to locate this report again :rolleyes: :doh:

<7:20PM Pontiac sealed @ G&C's by Det. Beasley

~7:20PM Pontiac towed from G&C's per Google travel time allowance from CSI arrival time

7:46PM Pontiac documented arrived @ CSI Forensics Bay by CSI Bloise

##:##PM CSI Bloise opened the sealed door and immediately noted the odor of human decomposition.

#:##PM Det. McBryde picked up George and proceeded to the tow yard to retrieve the trash bag from the dumpster

9:57PM Det. McBryde photographed the trashbag in the dumpster and retrieved it, then returned to G&C's

10:13PM LE photographed G&C's sideyard

11:07PM Det. McBryde arrived @ the Forensics unit w/ the trash bag

##:## PM/AM Yuri arrived @ the Forensics unit and directed a search of the trash bag
​
7/17/08
Pontiac CSI work continued

3:31PM D/S Forgery's K9 cadaver inspected the trunk
​
From Casey's cell records it appears she returned home sometime just before 6:48AM whence she initiated a text-fest w/ Tony. Casey's cell usage that morning was virtually continuous w/ the longest single break being 26 mins until the time LE picked her up again to goto Universal. Of course, Casey could've been multi-tasking, but, it sure doesn't look like G or C had her undivided attention for Q&A OR she had much time to focus on getting something outta the car and :rolleyes: squirreled away :nuts: (pun fully intended). Still not impossible...but she was a very good AT&T customer that morning. ;)

Speculating the likely time for Casey & Lee's convo in the garage was sometime 2:45AM-4:11AM 7/16 after Casey finished her statement and before Yuri arrived.

1) Still would appreciate a link to Beasley's first report of processing the car if anyone has that handy. TIA1.

2) Does Brittany's statement provide any clues re: time of day? TIA2.

AZ: One thought...IIRC, it was Cindy's coworker @ Gentiva that zeroed in on the carseat still being in the car that spelled trouble. IIRC, she urged Cindy to contact police. Perhaps that put Cindy in a different frame of mind when she returned home and started back into the car. NOW it was a "major prob".

Keep in mind that LE's view in the first several hours was that the grandparents had just learned of the situation and reported it immediately, hence, giving benefit of the doubt to G&C regarding custody of the car didn't skyrocket to the top of the to-do list. From that perspective one might consider George's approaching Yuri 7/16 AM about the car as further indication that the grandparents wanted to get to the bottom of things and were unlikely to meddle w/ evidence.

OK, OK :eek:ther_beatingA_Dead: I wished they'd sealed it earlier too. :)
Click to expand...

good synopsis
 
Adding...

  • BeanE pointed out that Melich's questioning of Casey @ Universal being devoid of the smelly car is a good indicator that whatever/whenever George mentioned it to him...it just didn't register until the afternoon of 7/16.

  • Went into detail on the "Post-911 calls..." thread that the timing of Cindy's statement to the 911 operator on the third call indicating, "It smells like there's been a dead body in the d@mned car!", was completely lost to the initial responding LEO's through no fault of their own...pure happenstance.

  • Still baffling that so many LEO's were near the car 7/15PM-7/16AM and didn't alert on the odor. Speculated earlier that perhaps their experience level may have been such that they had never been exposed to decomp smell before...and if the car had been closed up again, perhaps the odor around it was more faint than when Lee described it during the initial LE response (e.g. IF LE originally came in the front door). Recall that CSI Bloise didn't comment on it until unsealing the car. IOW...perhaps what Lee smelled was more about what had escaped into the garage and that dissipated with the opening of the garage door.

Just FWIW.
 
While I agree and wish LE had sealed off the car immediately upon arrival at the A's home, the damage to the evidence was already done. Long before CA ever called police, she and George had already cleaned that car's trunk, washed the pants and the knife, wiped down the doll with a wet wipe, and removed items from the car.... and goodness only knows what other destruction to evidence they caused..
 
Snaz said:
While I agree and wish LE had sealed off the car immediately upon arrival at the A's home, the damage to the evidence was already done. Long before CA ever called police, she and George had already cleaned that car's trunk, washed the pants and the knife, wiped down the doll with a wet wipe, and removed items from the car.... and goodness only knows what other destruction to evidence they caused..
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well we assume that all the damage was done.

I think it has been determined that KC had a small 20-30 minute window of time of free access to the car. It has also been noted that the trunk (and doors?) may have been open so she could have easily gone in and out of the car silently.

We will never know if additional evidence may have been compromised.
 
JBean said:
well we assume that all the damage was done.

I think it has been determined that KC had a small 20-30 minute window of time of free access to the car. It has also been noted that the trunk (and doors?) may have been open so she could have easily gone in and out of the car silently.

We will never know if additional evidence may have been compromised.
Click to expand...

The most convincing evidence ( the smell of human decomposition) was unchanged several weeks later though, so she may have removed articles, but she couldn't do anything about that.
 
BondJamesBond said:
Adding...

  • BeanE pointed out that Melich's questioning of Casey @ Universal being devoid of the smelly car is a good indicator that whatever/whenever George mentioned it to him...it just didn't register until the afternoon of 7/16.
  • Went into detail on the "Post-911 calls..." thread that the timing of Cindy's statement to the 911 operator on the third call indicating, "It smells like there's been a dead body in the d@mned car!", was completely lost to the initial responding LEO's through no fault of their own...pure happenstance.
  • Still baffling that so many LEO's were near the car 7/15PM-7/16AM and didn't alert on the odor. Speculated earlier that perhaps their experience level may have been such that they had never been exposed to decomp smell before...and if the car had been closed up again, perhaps the odor around it was more faint than when Lee described it during the initial LE response (e.g. IF LE originally came in the front door). Recall that CSI Bloise didn't comment on it until unsealing the car. IOW...perhaps what Lee smelled was more about what had escaped into the garage and that dissipated with the opening of the garage door.

Just FWIW.
Click to expand...

LE had already been dispatched in response to the second 911 call, and arrived within moments of the conclusion of the third 911 call - CA said words to the effect of "they're here now." I think in all likelihood, CA's statement, "it smells like there's been a dead body in the d@mn car" was never relayed by the dispatcher to responding LE. The officers had arrived on scene and the dispatcher handed it off to them without relaying CA's dead body comment - probably thinking that she would repeat that statement to the responding officers.

Fifteen hours is a long time for the Pontiac to have gone without having been sealed. But, even if LE had sealed it right away upon arriving, the car had already been compromised - George drove it home and removed the battery; Cindy removed items and cleaned others; and no one will ever know if a piece of crucial evidence had been removed or destroyed in the process. But, all this was done before LE was ever notified.

From all the transcripts and reports, it appears that once LE arrived on the scene there was very little time for further tampering of the vehicle due to the presence of LE.
 
Leila said:
I've always felt that it was reasonable, when confronted with a car that smelled of human decomposition, and knowing he hadn't laid eyes on his granddaughter in 31 days, nor his daughter for about 3 weeks (assuming that the last time he saw Casey was on June 24th - gas can confrontation), that the natural assumption would be that someone had killed his granddaughter and daughter and abandoned the car. If GA noted Casey's purse in the car, that would only further confirm his suspicion. GA should have called the police before going any further. Once GA opened the trunk, he contaminated a possible crime scene.

Just for the sake of supposition........what if GA had called the police, without opening the trunk or touching the car any further? How would that have changed the outcome?

It's likely the police would have been suspicious even without the presence of a dead body as the car reeked of decomposition. They would question GA, and if GA was honest and truthful, the police would have learned that a month prior CA and KC had a terrible fight and KC left their home with Caylee and that's the last time GA and CA saw their granddaughter. The police would learn that although CA had spoken with KC on the phone, neither GA or CA had seen KC in about three weeks.

At that point, the police might opt that the car be left at the tow yard, un-touched, until KC and Caylee can be located and KC questioned. I'm sure the police would have found KC within a day or two, and not finding Caylee and hearing KC's story, they would have gone ahead and impounded the car.

All evidence in that car would have been preserved. KC's slacks wouldn't have been washed, nor the "mama" doll cleaned, nor any clean up of the vehicle done. The forensic team would have had a car with the evidence intact.
Click to expand...

Excellent points. However, even though GA mentioned being worried about either KC or Caylee in one of the FBI/LE interviews (in the other he simply mentioned Caylee), I believe he already knew that it could not be KC. CA had been communicating with her long after the car was impounded. Both GA and CA were able to determine when the car was impounded and, in fact, were furious they had not been notified earlier. Since KC had been communicating with CA sporadically by phone and text in the interim, after the hide-and-seek episode of July 3 and her subsequent claim to be in Jax, I'm sure that knowing she was alive was one reason GA decided to take matters into his own hands and drive that car home so he could control the situation and mitigate the damages to KC (even if it turned out to be some other body and not his granddaughter).
 
I've mentioned it before but I think it is possible that garbage can make the worst smell if left in the car. This summer our garbage people went on strike and we were hauling our own garbage bags to the dump. I drove 3 bags of garbage to the dump (20 minutes drive). After, I noticed one of the bags leaked God knows what. The stench was unbelievable. I pulled out the trunk liner and scrubbed it, let it dry in the hot sun, sprayed febreeze all over it. The smell of that garbage stayed (albeit not as strong) for months. Our wheel cover had the same type of stains underneath on the cardboard part from me scrubbing the trunk liner in the trunk - the chemicals etc leaked through the sides and underneath.

I think Casey made a smart attempt to cover up the decomp smell with garbage. My opinion is the garbage was put in the trunk to make whoever found the car think the smell was from the garbage.

All I can say is that smell from my trunk was awful, I gag just thinking about it. I could not believe how bad it smelled. I wanted to share this with those of you who said garbage could not smell that bad.

I don't believe the garbage caused the smell but rather the garbage was put in the trunk to cover the decomp smell. I'm shocked she was smart enough to come up with the idea.

The stains on the underside of the wheel cover in my opinion were caused from the clean up process.
 
The Simon B (tow-yard manager) thread is gone. So hope it's okay to post this here....

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0926/17564882.pdf

Page 12 line 22 - SB mentions that he had smelled a bad smell a few days prior, coming from the car, BUT it didn't really reek of decomp until they opened the door......

I think this line of questioning the detective is going after is IMPORTANT. It goes with what we are all wondering about. Why (possibly) LE didn't go after that car pronto and seal it off. SB goes on to explain why/how the decomp. smell wasn't as notice-able at the time, even compared to another car that held a dead body during the same time frame as the pontiac. - Read it, even if you did in the past. Read it again, I think you may see what LE is trying to 'prove', or explain - how and why they didn't notice the smell of decomp., even though it was right next to them.

Page 10 line 20 - SB mentions that GA told him that he(ga) had called the actual Amscott to verify the car had been there and for how long. This conversation happened right before GA gassed up the pontiac at the tow-yard. Still unclear how he knew where to call and when he did it. (maybe when he was waiting for CA to come with the cash?) I don't remember GA telling LE or FBI he did this. It's just proof (hear say) that GA knew KC and Caylee were missing and now without transportation (KC'S car) and child seat for at least two weeks at this point + smell, and still drove the evidence riddled vehicle home. WTF?

Also, SB recalls taking the garbage bag out of the car and throws it near the dumpster ON THE GROUND. And it lays there for the duration, until Ca & GA drive off, THEN SB throws it in the dumpster. No tellin' how many flys took off before LE actually were able to examine it.

:twocents:
 
Leila said:
LE had already been dispatched in response to the second 911 call, and arrived within moments of the conclusion of the third 911 call - CA said words to the effect of "they're here now." I think in all likelihood, CA's statement, "it smells like there's been a dead body in the d@mn car" was never relayed by the dispatcher to responding LE. The officers had arrived on scene and the dispatcher handed it off to them without relaying CA's dead body comment - probably thinking that she would repeat that statement to the responding officers.
Click to expand...

The initial responding officers were responding to a stolen vehicle call. It's in their reports, linked somewhere in the depths of these threads.
 
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