Premeditation?

[MWright]

Some discussion on JVM (9.17.09), on why Clark could face charges of murder in the first degree, even if this is a crime of rage and not (fully) premeditated.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/17/ijvm.01.html

"CARDOZA: It makes no sense. They could get a first-degree murder conviction for a different reason.

FRANCIS (?): We don`t know what the evidence is yet because the arrest warrants are sealed.

CARDOZA: We know she was strangled.

>>>snip, conversation digresses<<<<

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... But could it have been like something spontaneous that she did that sparked his rage that had been bottled up?

GABA: Absolutely. That`s what I was saying earlier. I mean, it`s quite possible that he had it for her. She dissed him. He felt, you know, inferior to her. Here she is, a Yale college student and he`s a custodial person, and he just, you know, couldn`t take it anymore. And that was it.

I don`t know. I wasn`t there. But I do believe that there was a lot of rage. You don`t -- you don`t asphyxiate somebody the way he did if it wasn`t rage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. It takes two to five minutes.

...

CARDOZA: That`s what I was going to point out. And that`s why they might, if they can prove he did it with the circumstantial evidence, the defensive wounds, get a first-degree murder conviction, because I remember when I prosecuted and you had strangulation. I would take a head of a mannequin and I would say, "You want to see how much time he had to think about this?"

You put your hands around the neck of the mannequin, and you stand there for four to five minutes and go, "That`s enough time to premeditate a murder, even though it might have started with rage." That`s why it could be first-degree murder."

 

[IWannaKnow]

ALL PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART!

I think they argued about mice. They had argued before about similar subjects. It got out of hand this time - for whatever reason. She turned to walk out, RC hit her, fight ensues, RC strangles Annie. RC freaks out for period of time. Places Annie in laundry cart, covers with laundry. Begins cleaning immediate area. Begins scouting for spot to put body - hence all the swipes in different parts of building. Finally decides on utility chase, rolls laundry cart over to the room and stuffs Annie into the chase. RC puts his bloody clothes in the ceiling tiles, changes into clothes he had in his locker, and I think the alarm was triggered somewhere around this time. RC hadn't been able to clean everything up, hence the video of him leaving with his head in his hand. Has to come back to take care of all the details.....:twocents:

 

[Stephens]

So true, gxm.

I can't see Annie Le being so careless about protocol that it would require a meeting with anyone, let alone a lab technician. She came across as an incredibly diligent person, responsible. It seems more and more likely that he set her up to kill her. He was looking for an excuse to murder her and strangling someone to death is way too slow to be a "flash" of rage.

 

[Shlock Homes]

They said her death was due to traumatic asphyxiation due to neck compression. I'm not sure a choke hold from behind would have achieve that result because they're usually designed to just cut off the blood supply to the brain to knock someone out. Traumatic and neck compression implies some kind of crushing. If all of her bones were broken (we're not totally sure if that was bogus, or if they're just trying to say it was to plug a leak), then maybe the same device or method that did that also crushed her throat?

 

[joypath]

They said her death was due to traumatic asphyxiation due to neck compression. I'm not sure a choke hold from behind would have achieve that result because they're usually designed to just cut off the blood supply to the brain to knock someone out. Traumatic and neck compression implies some kind of crushing. If all of her bones were broken (we're not totally sure if that was bogus, or if they're just trying to say it was to plug a leak), then maybe the same device or method that did that also crushed her throat?

Picture standing behind somebody shorter than you, reach down and encircle the snaller neck with your large hands, both thumbs exerting pressure on the neck area below the chin and apply persistent pressure using your extra height as leverage: snap goes the hyoid bone.

PS: hyoid bone: the bone that is the only bone NOT connected to another, is the unique bone that in conjunction with the larynx permits us to talk!

 

[YellowDog]

I don't think this murder was premeditated. I think it came about because of some incident that happened between them in that room that day. Let's face it..........why would someone who planned to murder somone else pick a busy building at a University where people are in and out all the time when he could have followed her from the school or her apartment and forced her to go to a place where no one was around?

 

[Normcar21]

Hasn't anyone here ever been absolutely enraged by a co-worker before? Whatever you're doing may seem small to someone else, but it's your life and it's big to you. If someone starts to get under your skin, in small or big ways, it's hard to keep from getting more and more annoyed, even when they do little things. I know the one time I lost my temper with a co-worker, over ten years ago, I was really out of control. Fortunately, I'm not prone to violence, so for me, being out of control means I shook and raised my voice and slammed a door, but I can remember feeling like the entire world had gone away and it was just me and this other grad student, yelling at one another over disk space on the lab workstation. It was important to both of our research, but in the scheme of things, it was totally idiotic for us to be yelling about it. I was stressed, he was stressed, I saw him as being a hog of limited resources, he saw me as being in the way of his research, we got on each others' nerves, and we both simultaneously snapped. I guess that's why I don't find it impossible to believe that the confrontation that lead to her strangling was just over things in the lab.

Not that that makes RC any less nuts. Strangling someone is nuts.

I had a screaming match with a room mate about how the toilet paper roll should be placed on the roller, paper end in, or paper end out. We almost came to blows.

I agree, good point, I am very pleased that neither of us had a gun or a bat at that moment in my life. I honestly cannot guarantee that the result would not have been nasty in many ways.

As it turned out, we worked out a solution in due time...put the roll of toilet paper on the sink counter :croc::woohoo:

PS - had my roomy belted me with a bat I'm not sure if that could or would have been premeditation. I am not making a joke of the idea of premeditation in any way. The encounter actually happened and had it ended violently then the little encounter above may have been life changing for either one of the two of us. And that change of life may well have been permanent.

 

[Emily Booth]

They said her death was due to traumatic asphyxiation due to neck compression. I'm not sure a choke hold from behind would have achieve that result because they're usually designed to just cut off the blood supply to the brain to knock someone out. Traumatic and neck compression implies some kind of crushing. If all of her bones were broken (we're not totally sure if that was bogus, or if they're just trying to say it was to plug a leak), then maybe the same device or method that did that also crushed her throat?

I think we have discussions about strangulation going on at a couple of Annie Le threads.

Traumatic asphyxiation due to neck compression does not refer to crushing. It refers to strangulation. Strangulation can be from the front or behind, using hands or a ligature. A bead from Annie's necklace was found in the lab room. RC could've used her necklace as a ligature.

This was posted at one of the discussions on strangulation:

www.sog.unc.edu/programs/.../Parker4DVStrangulation1-12-08.pdf

 

[Shlock Homes]

Picture standing behind somebody shorter than you, reach down and encircle the snaller neck with your large hands, both thumbs exerting pressure on the neck area below the chin and apply persistent pressure using your extra height as leverage: snap goes the hyoid bone.

PS: hyoid bone: the bone that is the only bone NOT connected to another, is the unique bone that in conjunction with the larynx permits us to talk!

Are you suggesting that Ray Clark had some kind of special training to do this? Is this method quick? If this had happened, I would expect them to have rule manual strangulation.

I'm not convinced her necklace was the tool of murder. If they found a bead from it, it must have broken. I'm assuming it was string, and probably not all that thick. Unless it was made out of fishing line with high pound threshold.

 

[JL50ish]

I don't think this murder was premeditated. I think it came about because of some incident that happened between them in that room that day. Let's face it..........why would someone who planned to murder somone else pick a busy building at a University where people are in and out all the time when he could have followed her from the school or her apartment and forced her to go to a place where no one was around?

While it may not make sense to us, people pre-meditate murders with witnesses around all the time (the Georgia prof who recently killed his wife and 2 friends is an example).

But, that said, I don't think the area where he killed her does have many people coming in and out. I'm guessing that he was so familiar with the few other grad students' schedules that use that lab, that he was very confident that he wouldn't be observed.

I'm not saying that he definitely did pre-meditate the murder, I'm just saying that this is not a busy lab with people coming in and out all the time. Plus, it sounds like this happened in a small room within the lab...maybe each grad student has his/her own small room for his/her animals (so Clark was even more certain that he wouldn't be observed), or perhaps this happened in a supply room or Clark's own desk/office area...a place where he was also certain that he would not be observed.

I'm looking forward to seeing a "floor plan" or layout of the entire ground floor where Clark and Annie went in and out. I think once we all see the layout - and learn who typically came in and out at various times, we'll see that he was rather confident that he wouldn't be seen murdering her.

 

[joypath]

I don't think this murder was premeditated. I think it came about because of some incident that happened between them in that room that day. Let's face it..........why would someone who planned to murder somone else pick a busy building at a University where people are in and out all the time when he could have followed her from the school or her apartment and forced her to go to a place where no one was around?

Here again as lay persons we are discussing PLANNED vs PREMEDITATED as in the vernacular whereas the courts will present it in legal terms. That brings one back to the fact that premeditation may occur "in the blink of an eye" and as such makes me feel/believe that premeditation DOES apply as he could have stopped the strangulation be it manual, manual & "assisted" or mechanical by object, prior to her demise. Often with traumatic asphixia, terminating the behavior prior to observable death by a lay person (aka no movement, no breath sounds) would still be too late; survivability deminishes invertly to the time of compression. Then and only then could the situation be declared a "passion of rage", not premeditated, but the small detail of getting her medical assistance immediately would be necessary, IMO!

 

[YellowDog]

I doubt if many killers who use strangulation as their method of killing have second thoughts in the middle of the act and seek medical help for their victims.

 

[Normcar21]

While it may not make sense to us, people pre-meditate murders with witnesses around all the time (the Georgia prof who recently killed his wife and 2 friends is an example).

But, that said, I don't think the area where he killed her does have many people coming in and out. I'm guessing that he was so familiar with the few other grad students' schedules that use that lab, that he was very confident that he wouldn't be observed.

I'm not saying that he definitely did pre-meditate the murder, I'm just saying that this is not a busy lab with people coming in and out all the time. Plus, it sounds like this happened in a small room within the lab...maybe each grad student has his/her own small room for his/her animals (so Clark was even more certain that he wouldn't be observed), or perhaps this happened in a supply room or Clark's own desk/office area...a place where he was also certain that he would not be observed.

I'm looking forward to seeing a "floor plan" or layout of the entire ground floor where Clark and Annie went in and out. I think once we all see the layout - and learn who typically came in and out at various times, we'll see that he was rather confident that he wouldn't be seen murdering her.

You said: But, that said, I don't think the area where he killed her does have many people coming in and out. I'm guessing that he was so familiar with the few other grad students' schedules that use that lab, that he was very confident that he wouldn't be observed.

I agree with you fully on that. I know this idea has been brought up in many threads before and I've always thought exactly the same thing. This lab was not like a Mall at the time, I'd agree with you.

As the color shows, I'm whispering agreement

 

[joypath]

I doubt if many killers who use strangulation as their method of killing have second thoughts in the middle of the act and seek medical help for their victims.

LOL! I have done the autopsies to concur with THAT statement!

 

[Normcar21]

Perhaps the completion of any act that lasts beyond one or two seconds suggests premeditation. If I fall off of a bike I cannot premeditate the reaction because it is too fast, I have no time to make a rational decision, so I fall and scrape my knees. Then I can make my decisions about riding abilities. No premeditation exists.

Now, if I want to hit someone smaller than myself because they have perhaps insulted me or my space, and they are standing directly in front of my face, I would have a brief moment to "decide" my response, right? Of course. This individual is small, petite, not threatening in a physical manner in any way.

This differs from the bike incident scenario because the individual is offered an extremely short time to react to the threat, but a definite mental time to react. Once the decision has been made, to react, then in a situation where strangulation exists, a whole lot of decision making and premeditation is not only possible, but probable. It takes a whole lotta seconds to strangle a human being. Every second of this time becomes decision/indecision on the part of the one who strangles.

That is definitely premeditation, and can be nothing less.

Annie was small

 

[YellowDog]

Sounds more like a "spur of the moment decision" to me.

 

[Very Interesting]

The way he tried to return to normal immediately after the murder, wonder if he had killed before from his anger and didnt get caught? As he plainly didnt have any guilt after Annie and went about things as normal.
Maybe this wasnt the first time he had murdered?

 

[Waddles]

The way he tried to return to normal immediately after the murder, wonder if he had killed before from his anger and didnt get caught? As he plainly didnt have any guilt after Annie and went about things as normal.
Maybe this wasnt the first time he had murdered?

Hi Very Interesting, someone else brought this up at the beginning-I really highly highly doubt it though myself MOO

I also would not agree that he plainly had no guilt. I would say he appeared to callously go about his way because he wanted to get away with it and/or he was in major denial and dissociated

 

[Very Interesting]

Hi Very Interesting, someone else brought this up at the beginning-I really highly highly doubt it though myself MOO

I also would not agree that he plainly had no guilt. I would say he appeared to callously go about his way because he wanted to get away with it and/or he was in major denial and dissociated

See I would think if he really felt guilt, he would have turned himself in and admitted he did it..just my opinion on when a person feels guilty about something..especially if they murdered somebody

 

[Waddles]

See I would think if he really felt guilt, he would have turned himself in and admitted he did it..just my opinion on when a person feels guilty about something..especially if they murdered somebody

yes, true- I guess covering his tracks overrode his guilt